Hi Bush,

While it is certainly arguable that law is a social science, the THES methodology actually does not include law for the purposes of the social science rankings.

Cheers,

Hi Paddy Nolan,

Please give me a reference to support that statement, I can't find one on either the THE or the QS websites.

On the contrary, this link seems to imply that law is taken into consideration (bottom under "programs"): http://www.topuniversities.com/gradschool/schools/data/school_profile/default/londonschooleconomicspoliticalscience/

Hi Bush,

The link is to a list of social science programs at LSE, not the THES methodology. Notably, the "methodology" section in the THES social science ranking does not mention law. Add to this fact that (1) several of the schools in the ranking don't even have law programs, and (2) the social science rankings do not match up with the THES law rankings, and the picture should start to become a little clearer.

In any event, and regardless of whether law is in fact included, the confluence of these factors would seem to suggest that the THES social science rankings are a very poor proxy for a global law ranking.

Cheers,

Dan

Cowboy,

Osgoode's professional LLM program is in fact taught downtown, at the professional development facility near Yonge/Dundas. The Keele Campus is in fact quite ugly and far from any good part of the city, but that's not really the best criteria by which to choose a grad school anyway, is it?

With regards to Paddy Nolan's comments, I would have to disagree. I chose Osgoode over U of T and I've never regretted it. I had friends who went to U of T and complained about professors who were accomplished Academics but terrible teachers and who had no time for students. My professors were bright, interesting and always available to chat. I feel like I got a great education and met wonderful people. I think U of T-ers tend to confuse an expensive education with a quality education.

For those who might be new to the UofT v. Osgoode debate, chazb has competently provided the standard knee-jerk argument in favour of Osgoode. I fully acknowledge (in fact, I do acknowledge above) that Osgoode's students and faculty are good. I also concede that UofT has some poor teachers (as all law schools do) and that the some law students may indeed prefer Osgoode to UofT. None of this, however, detracts from the reality that UofT is in many, many ways a far better school - especially for LLMs.

Finally, as for the tiresome argument that UofT students are somehow blinded into thinking an expensive education is necessarily a good one... yawn. When are you guys going to check this ridiculous notion at the door already? It makes you look petty and detracts from your argument.

No need to get snippy, PN. I think everyone can agree that the choice of LLM program is specific to the individual. If you really want to be of assistance to those asking about LLM programs, provide some specifics as opposed to bald assertions that U of T is "better". Yawning is not a particularly convincing rebuttal.

"I think U of T-ers tend to confuse an expensive education with a quality education."

Yawning might not be the most convincing rebuttal to a good point, but it's probably an appropriate one to yours.

And there's clearly a need to get snippy (That's what anonymous forums are for). Your basis for propping up Osgood is apparently that your professors had a lot of spare time on their hands (Not a lot of journals banging down the doors?), while the death knell for the entire University of Toronto Faculty of Law is that some people you know complained about it.

If you really want to be of assistance to those asking about LLM programs (my most fervent desire), you should probably provide some (non-specious) specifics as opposed to bald assertions that Osgood is "a really good deal - like saving 25% on a can of soup because it's dented."

Chazb,

Your personal attack on the intelligence of UofT students does not warrant a 'convincing' rebuttal. Indeed, in the circumstances, I thought a single four letter word was more than adequate to pierce such a thin veil.

For what it's worth, it would have been quite simple for you to rephrase your own bald assertion as a question: is the added cost of UofT worth it? Now that is a legitimate question and one certainly of importance to many prospective LLMs. Instead, you took the rather perplexing tack of insulting the intelligence of what are, by all objective standards, a pretty bright group of people.

As I have articulated what I believe to be the specific merits of UofT elsewhere on this site, I will refrain from repeating myself. That said, I encourage Chazb, for the edification of prospective LLMs, to do the same for Osgoode. We already know about the architecture and location, what about the quality of graduate administration, flexibility of graduate programs, access to thesis advisors and other faculty, opportunities to assist in faculty research, job and internship prospects, etc.?

Cheers,

Paddy

Bender - it's "Osgoode". With an "e".

Of course U of T students are bright, Paddy. I never said they weren't. But you have to admit (unless you're completely deluding yourself) that price of tuition is closely linked with quality of education in the minds of many. That doesn't make them stupid. I was simply cautioning against getting sucked in by the U of T marketing machine. I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons to go there. I'm not going to bother to comb this site to find your other posts detailing the merits of U of T, but I'll take your word for it.

As for the merits of Osgoode, I'm sure they're also detailed on this site, as well as on Osgoode's website. I'm only familiar with the professional LLM, which obviously offers the flexibility of part-time study and distance education, as well as a wide range of specialties. For my situation, it offered the best alternative. My partner did the regular graduate program at Osgoode and had a wonderful experience with his supervision committee, got to teach research and writing as well as a law course at York, and got to do research with a prominent labour law scholar.

Sorry to have ruffled your feathers, boys. Deep breaths - it's the long weekend.

Cheers.

Definitely also add the Hebrew University of Jerusalem... experienced school with some famous Jewish scholars and many great visiting professors every year. (I was there as an exchange student for a semester)

I wish comments came from students of quoted universities. The reference to Oxford demonstrates ignorance. Have you ever heard of the 1 or 2 year BCL or that non-commonwealth other degree?

What specialisation have you in mind? A graduate degree in law assumes a prior knowledge. An LLM is not magic. You bring content.

Kennedy said it - don't ask what your LLM can do for you. Ask what you can bring to your LLM. If nothing, don't apply.

Blogs
BA LLB (Hons) BCL (2 yrs) LLD
Barrister
(Those in the know see the humour)

What?

Not in the know.

I came across this post randomly while searching for information about non-US law schools. I dont actually have any plans to do an LLM abroad but starting nosing around after reading about the the situation with the legal clinics at University of Tel Aviv. I am actually a second year law student at UChicago. I am generally impressed by the thoughtfulness of most responses on this thread, but I must say as an ignorant interloper (officious intermeddler?) -- the vitriol and defensiveness of the Osgoode/U of T posts would deter me from even visiting either campus, let alone actually attending either school. The posters are obviously intelligent, but I havent seen more fallacious debate since high school. I think prospective students would benefit more if you both could calm down and engage each other as adults.

As someone who has worked and taught in law schools in both the US and Canada (and a short stint in Oxford), it appears to me that there is a general consensus in Canada that Osgoode Hall's glory days are behind it. At any rate, the correlation between a law school and its LLM program is not a clear one, and in my estimation Osgoode's LLM program has no international panache.

U of T is a fine law school, but not well-known in Europe or the US as a general rule, and their LLM is not highly regarded, at least in academic circles. Based on what I know of it, it is a solid program and one of the top in Canada but not world-class.

McGill's law school is one of the most highly-regarded in academic circles (especially in international law circles), but their BCL.LLB program (which is transystemic and bijuridical) is quite unique and hence difficult to really compare to others. In terms of raw talent of the student body, you would be hard-pressed to find a better school. Again, however, the LLM program of a law school is a very different creature. McGill's Air and Space Law LLM is probably the foremost program of its kind, but obviously highly-specialized. If you are referring to their general LLM, housed under the umbrella of the Institute of Comparative Law, it is mainly known for human rights and comparative/international law. In years past I would have to say that their program, while attracting a very talented student body, was not worthy of the school in general and was treated like a poor cousin. (Disclaimer: I hold an LLM and DCL from McGill and also taught there for five years). Over the past few years they have revamped their program, injected resources, introduced a core curriculum including a methodology program, and made it more flexible. While I have not been involved in the program since before these changes, anectodal evidence suggests that a good program has become that much better. It is worthy of your consideration, but again, it depends on what you are looking for. McGill seems adverse to marketing itself, so you will find that name recognition, while extensive, can be uneven. You will get wider 'prestige' value from Oxford or the like, but you will have to work harder at McGill for the degree (I have very much enjoyed my time at Oxford and hope to go back in the future, but pedogogically speaking it is not impressive). I chose the McGill LLM some years ago because it was one of the only programs that required you to write a publishable thesis and defend it, which is practically unheard-of for an LLM. This probably explains why a good proportion of the class was made-up of academics. I note, however, that since then they have introduced an non-thesis option in addition to their standard thesis LLM.

With respect to the earlier comment about law faculty and where they obtain their LLMs, as a general rule you are encouraged to obtain your LLM from a different institution than where you did your primary law degree. Many LLMs, Harvard being a good example, are degree mills that cater to international applicants who wish to get US credentials. Canadian academics tend to obtain their LLMs at non-Canadian institutions (note how many of McGill's faculty have higher degrees from the States or Europe, for example) while US applicants often look abroad.

One final word of advice: I think people sometimes focus to much on what they think is the 'best' or 'best known' program. It's what you do with it that counts. Choose the program you like best, not the one you think others will admire the most. Trust me, you can be in the most prestigious program in the world, but you'll be miserable if it's not a good fit. The idea that anyone can somehow distill hundreds of disparate schools in various countries down into a simple ranking may be enticing, but it's intellectually empty and methodologically suspect. If you want to know which schools are the most competitive in terms of admissions, that's a tangible question that admits to an answer (albeit not without difficulties as this information tends to be closely-held). cheers.

Top 5 LLM Programs in the United Kingdom in terms of international reputation and quality of instruction:

1. LSE
2. Cambridge
3. Oxford
4. UCL
5. KCL

In the U.K., there are two types of postgraduate Master's degrees, the so-called taught Master's, and the postgraduate research degree. Oxford has a different nomenclature for the LLM: the Magister Juris (MJur) is their taught Master's degree, for non-common law graduates, while the Bachelor of Civil Law (BCL), for common law graduates. The Master of Studies in Legal Research (MSt), Master of Philosophy in Law (MPhil) and Master of Letters (MLitt) are Oxford's postgraduate research degrees, which may qualify one to pursue the University's highest postgraduate research degree, the Doctor of Philosophy (DPhil). All the other schools in the list grant an LLM and a PhD. Cambridge grants an LLD in addition to the PhD.

I wonder if I could ask the posters here what kind of reputation the Frankfurt program in law and finance enjoys outside of Germany.

It seems to be academically very rigorous w a compelling specialisation and to attract strong students from around the world. But i am just a little worried that as someone who will have already worked in 'biglaw' that the program would look weak on my resume. To be quite honest this suspicion is based in part on the fact that it seems to attract those wanting to enter rather than progress in the european capital markets industry. ... would i be mistaken to think of the frankfurt program as a sort of mba for lawyers (ie a way to lateral to a leading firm in london and not just a year away from work.)

thank you,

Best law schools in the world (excluding US) in my opinion:
UK-IRL
1.Oxford Univ
2. Cambridge Univ
3. LSE
EUROPE
1. Utrecht Univ
2. Oslo Univ
3. Leiden Univ
AMERICAS
1. Toronto Univ
2. British Columbia Univ
3. McGill Univ
AUS-NZ
1.Melbourne Univ
2.Sydney Univ
3.ANU
ASIA
1.Tokyo Univ
2. Kyoto Univ
3.Hebrew Univ Jerusalem
AFRICA
1.Univ Cape Town
2.University of Stellenbosch
3.University of Witwatersrand (Johannesburg)

Hi All,

Thank you all for the intriguing discussion!!!

I would be very grateful if anyone can shed some light and provide me with some of their opinions on which choice would provide me with the best options upon graduation (especially during/post an global recession) for finding employment at a international law firm/Consulting/banking.

Facts (obtained): Hon. BA (U of T)
LLB (KCL-U of L)

Choices: LLM-Osgoode (Full scholarship)
LLM- U of T (No financial reward)

thanks for your insights in advance.

I can't say I know much about international rankings overall. I think it depends on what you want to focus on and where you want to do it. There are of course elite programs known around the world, but those would generally be the top British and American programs followed by top European, Asian, Australian and Canadian programs.

I have a high opinion of Dutch schools like Leiden, Maastricht and Utrecht. It is usually possible to study entirely in English and with a very international focus.

I think outside of the core of where people usually look there are some ones to be considered.

Israeli law programs, for example, should be considered. Tel Aviv University has the top-ranked English-language law journal outside of the US, and that means ahead of hundreds of British, European, Canadian, Indian and Australian, etc journals.

Haifa has a joint 1-year LLM with U-Ottawa taught in English.

And some have already mentioned Hebrew University.