Tiers within the T14: what are yours?


d-fens
Hi, everybody! Another personal ranking quiz inspired by the discussions on TLS. No doubt the T14 law schools are the best in America, but they are not necessarily on the same level in terms of (international) reputation, academic quality and career prospects. Indeed, there are tiers within that group. What are yours LLM-wise?

Some say the "traditional tiers" are HYS-CCN-MVPB-DCNG, and most recruiters would consider a job application based on these tiers. Others suggest that there is a "big four" or LS group: (Y)LS, (H)LS, (S)LS and (C)LS, followed by the "six in the middle": UChicago, UPenn, NYU, Michigan, Virginia, Berkeley (the last three being "public ivies"), and the rest of the T14: Duke, Northwestern, Cornell and Georgetown. Combining all the input, I would say my tiers are:
1) HLS or YLS, SLS or CLS
2) UChicago or UPenn, NYU,
3) Berkeley, Michigan or Virginia
4) Northwestern or Georgetown, Duke or Cornell
This ranking aims to reflect the overall prestige and academic quality, regardless of outstanding reputation in a particular field or preferences for academic career, Biglaw/private practice, government/IO jobs.

Some of you may disagree, and I would like to hear your arguments and see your rankings as well. Admittedly, it could be misleading to measure qualitative criteria, as law schools rise and fall in the rankings over a period of time. To quote Brian Leiter: "Circa 1960, for example, it would have been common to think of Yale, Harvard, and Columbia as clearly the top three law schools, with Penn, Michigan, and perhaps Chicago just a notch below. Stanford rose to prominence during the 1950s and 1960s, and Chicago's competitive position improved significantly with the rise of law-and-economics in the 1970s, where it was the primary innovator. NYU and Georgetown both became far more prominent schools starting in the 1970s as well. Columbia slipped out of the "top 3" during the 1960s, Penn slipped out of "the top five" by the 1970s, and Michigan did the same in the 1990s" (http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009job_teaching.shtml ).
Hi, everybody! Another personal ranking quiz inspired by the discussions on TLS. No doubt the T14 law schools are the best in America, but they are not necessarily on the same level in terms of (international) reputation, academic quality and career prospects. Indeed, there are tiers within that group. What are yours LLM-wise?

Some say the "traditional tiers" are HYS-CCN-MVPB-DCNG, and most recruiters would consider a job application based on these tiers. Others suggest that there is a "big four" or LS group: (Y)LS, (H)LS, (S)LS and (C)LS, followed by the "six in the middle": UChicago, UPenn, NYU, Michigan, Virginia, Berkeley (the last three being "public ivies"), and the rest of the T14: Duke, Northwestern, Cornell and Georgetown. Combining all the input, I would say my tiers are:
1) HLS or YLS, SLS or CLS
2) UChicago or UPenn, NYU,
3) Berkeley, Michigan or Virginia
4) Northwestern or Georgetown, Duke or Cornell
This ranking aims to reflect the overall prestige and academic quality, regardless of outstanding reputation in a particular field or preferences for academic career, Biglaw/private practice, government/IO jobs.

Some of you may disagree, and I would like to hear your arguments and see your rankings as well. Admittedly, it could be misleading to measure qualitative criteria, as law schools rise and fall in the rankings over a period of time. To quote Brian Leiter: "Circa 1960, for example, it would have been common to think of Yale, Harvard, and Columbia as clearly the top three law schools, with Penn, Michigan, and perhaps Chicago just a notch below. Stanford rose to prominence during the 1950s and 1960s, and Chicago's competitive position improved significantly with the rise of law-and-economics in the 1970s, where it was the primary innovator. NYU and Georgetown both became far more prominent schools starting in the 1970s as well. Columbia slipped out of the "top 3" during the 1960s, Penn slipped out of "the top five" by the 1970s, and Michigan did the same in the 1990s" (http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009job_teaching.shtml ).
quote
Hi, everybody! Another personal ranking quiz inspired by the discussions on TLS. No doubt the T14 law schools are the best in America, but they are not necessarily on the same level in terms of (international) reputation, academic quality and career prospects. Indeed, there are tiers within that group. What are yours LLM-wise?

Some say the "traditional tiers" are HYS-CCN-MVPB-DCNG, and most recruiters would consider a job application based on these tiers. Others suggest that there is a "big four" or LS group: (Y)LS, (H)LS, (S)LS and (C)LS, followed by the "six in the middle": UChicago, UPenn, NYU, Michigan, Virginia, Berkeley (the last three being "public ivies"), and the rest of the T14: Duke, Northwestern, Cornell and Georgetown. Combining all the input, I would say my tiers are:
1) HLS or YLS, SLS or CLS
2) UChicago or UPenn, NYU,
3) Berkeley, Michigan or Virginia
4) Northwestern or Georgetown, Duke or Cornell
This ranking aims to reflect the overall prestige and academic quality, regardless of outstanding reputation in a particular field or preferences for academic career, Biglaw/private practice, government/IO jobs.

Some of you may disagree, and I would like to hear your arguments and see your rankings as well. Admittedly, it could be misleading to measure qualitative criteria, as law schools rise and fall in the rankings over a period of time. To quote Brian Leiter: "Circa 1960, for example, it would have been common to think of Yale, Harvard, and Columbia as clearly the top three law schools, with Penn, Michigan, and perhaps Chicago just a notch below. Stanford rose to prominence during the 1950s and 1960s, and Chicago's competitive position improved significantly with the rise of law-and-economics in the 1970s, where it was the primary innovator. NYU and Georgetown both became far more prominent schools starting in the 1970s as well. Columbia slipped out of the "top 3" during the 1960s, Penn slipped out of "the top five" by the 1970s, and Michigan did the same in the 1990s" (http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009job_teaching.shtml ).



I don't completely agree with you. I would go with the traditional American rankings of the t14:
1) HYS (Always interchanging in the top 3)

2) CCN (Always interchanging as the next top 3 (4-6) )

3) MVP
4) the rest.
I also believe that this ranking applies nationally and internationally.

[Edited by The will of fire on Apr 06, 2017]

[quote]Hi, everybody! Another personal ranking quiz inspired by the discussions on TLS. No doubt the T14 law schools are the best in America, but they are not necessarily on the same level in terms of (international) reputation, academic quality and career prospects. Indeed, there are tiers within that group. What are yours LLM-wise?

Some say the "traditional tiers" are HYS-CCN-MVPB-DCNG, and most recruiters would consider a job application based on these tiers. Others suggest that there is a "big four" or LS group: (Y)LS, (H)LS, (S)LS and (C)LS, followed by the "six in the middle": UChicago, UPenn, NYU, Michigan, Virginia, Berkeley (the last three being "public ivies"), and the rest of the T14: Duke, Northwestern, Cornell and Georgetown. Combining all the input, I would say my tiers are:
1) HLS or YLS, SLS or CLS
2) UChicago or UPenn, NYU,
3) Berkeley, Michigan or Virginia
4) Northwestern or Georgetown, Duke or Cornell
This ranking aims to reflect the overall prestige and academic quality, regardless of outstanding reputation in a particular field or preferences for academic career, Biglaw/private practice, government/IO jobs.

Some of you may disagree, and I would like to hear your arguments and see your rankings as well. Admittedly, it could be misleading to measure qualitative criteria, as law schools rise and fall in the rankings over a period of time. To quote Brian Leiter: "Circa 1960, for example, it would have been common to think of Yale, Harvard, and Columbia as clearly the top three law schools, with Penn, Michigan, and perhaps Chicago just a notch below. Stanford rose to prominence during the 1950s and 1960s, and Chicago's competitive position improved significantly with the rise of law-and-economics in the 1970s, where it was the primary innovator. NYU and Georgetown both became far more prominent schools starting in the 1970s as well. Columbia slipped out of the "top 3" during the 1960s, Penn slipped out of "the top five" by the 1970s, and Michigan did the same in the 1990s" (http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009job_teaching.shtml ).[/quote]


I don't completely agree with you. I would go with the traditional American rankings of the t14:
1) HYS (Always interchanging in the top 3)

2) CCN (Always interchanging as the next top 3 (4-6) )

3) MVP
4) the rest.
I also believe that this ranking applies nationally and internationally.
quote
robot6
I'm sorry, but CLS doesn't belong to tier-1. HYS are in a different league. Graduate admission standards in HYS are much, much higher than CLS.
I'm sorry, but CLS doesn't belong to tier-1. HYS are in a different league. Graduate admission standards in HYS are much, much higher than CLS.
quote
LatinoLLM
From my perspective, as a latin with several LLMs connections in Latin America and US, my personal ranking related with the employability, prestige and alumni only about the LLMs market is:

1. Harvard, Yale and Stanford.
2. Columbia, Penn, NYU and Chicago.
3. Berkeley, Northwestern, and Georgetown (In my experience I think this schools have better reputation than the schools I include in group 4 because their location -big markets- and bigger alumni)
4. Duke and Michigan.
5. Virginia and Cornell.

Also within group 4 I would also include UCLA, USC and Boston, and within the group 5 Texas, Vandy and Washington St. Louis.

I do not take in account the academics, since In my opinion the rankings have a good approach to this (JD programs).
From my perspective, as a latin with several LLMs connections in Latin America and US, my personal ranking related with the employability, prestige and alumni only about the LLMs market is:

1. Harvard, Yale and Stanford.
2. Columbia, Penn, NYU and Chicago.
3. Berkeley, Northwestern, and Georgetown (In my experience I think this schools have better reputation than the schools I include in group 4 because their location -big markets- and bigger alumni)
4. Duke and Michigan.
5. Virginia and Cornell.

Also within group 4 I would also include UCLA, USC and Boston, and within the group 5 Texas, Vandy and Washington St. Louis.

I do not take in account the academics, since In my opinion the rankings have a good approach to this (JD programs).
quote
Lawgirl1
It depends what country you're coming from. I would say that the first post is more accurate outside of the US where employers are less up to date with moves in US university rankings.
It depends what country you're coming from. I would say that the first post is more accurate outside of the US where employers are less up to date with moves in US university rankings.
quote
It depends what country you're coming from. I would say that the first post is more accurate outside of the US where employers are less up to date with moves in US university rankings.


Yes but its a clear cut fact that Columbia is not in the same league with HYS.

Also Upenn isn't in the same league with CCN. Although it is a very very slight difference, But still there's a difference.
[quote]It depends what country you're coming from. I would say that the first post is more accurate outside of the US where employers are less up to date with moves in US university rankings. [/quote]

Yes but its a clear cut fact that Columbia is not in the same league with HYS.

Also Upenn isn't in the same league with CCN. Although it is a very very slight difference, But still there's a difference.

quote
a233
From my perspective, as a latin with several LLMs connections in Latin America and US, my personal ranking related with the employability, prestige and alumni only about the LLMs market is:

1. Harvard, Yale and Stanford.
2. Columbia, Penn, NYU and Chicago.
3. Berkeley, Northwestern, and Georgetown (In my experience I think this schools have better reputation than the schools I include in group 4 because their location -big markets- and bigger alumni)
4. Duke and Michigan.
5. Virginia and Cornell.

Also within group 4 I would also include UCLA, USC and Boston, and within the group 5 Texas, Vandy and Washington St. Louis.

I do not take in account the academics, since In my opinion the rankings have a good approach to this (JD programs).


I agree with this view, but would change Duke with Cornell...
[quote]From my perspective, as a latin with several LLMs connections in Latin America and US, my personal ranking related with the employability, prestige and alumni only about the LLMs market is:

1. Harvard, Yale and Stanford.
2. Columbia, Penn, NYU and Chicago.
3. Berkeley, Northwestern, and Georgetown (In my experience I think this schools have better reputation than the schools I include in group 4 because their location -big markets- and bigger alumni)
4. Duke and Michigan.
5. Virginia and Cornell.

Also within group 4 I would also include UCLA, USC and Boston, and within the group 5 Texas, Vandy and Washington St. Louis.

I do not take in account the academics, since In my opinion the rankings have a good approach to this (JD programs).[/quote]

I agree with this view, but would change Duke with Cornell...
quote
https://www.thoughtco.com/t14-law-schools-2154903
https://www.thoughtco.com/t14-law-schools-2154903
quote

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