LLM Netherlands


axelw

Hi Anna,

I have no idea yet, I have about three weeks to decide and I am trying to get all the information possible I can get from people who either know the Universities or have attended the programs. I agree that while Leiden University seems more likeable, there seems to be a consensus on Utrechts reputation. Yet, I recently found out that Leiden is member of more European and International Affiliation School Programs with schools like Oxford and Cambridge and at the same time I found out that Utrecht has better academic reputation in general. I am very undecided and I don't have much time left...if anyone out there can give us more insight on this issue it will be highly appreciated...

Thanx

Hi Anna,

I have no idea yet, I have about three weeks to decide and I am trying to get all the information possible I can get from people who either know the Universities or have attended the programs. I agree that while Leiden University seems more likeable, there seems to be a consensus on Utrechts reputation. Yet, I recently found out that Leiden is member of more European and International Affiliation School Programs with schools like Oxford and Cambridge and at the same time I found out that Utrecht has better academic reputation in general. I am very undecided and I don't have much time left...if anyone out there can give us more insight on this issue it will be highly appreciated...

Thanx
quote
pollyemma

what kind of jobs can you get after earning an LLM at a Dutch University?

what kind of jobs can you get after earning an LLM at a Dutch University?
quote
axelw

I am taking votes now.... Utecht or Leiden?

I am taking votes now.... Utecht or Leiden?
quote
legaldocs

everything depends on money.

Leiden is more expensive than U

everything depends on money.

Leiden is more expensive than U
quote
PB

I would choose Utrecht - has LLM in both International and European Law, good for law firms and clients. Should you decide to take only one course in European law, still your final degree would be : ``Master of International AND European Law´´, quite neat. :) It allows you to choose a variety of subjects too. It is academically harder perhaps because it requires moot court subjects and preparing for an international law moot court of the Jessup type is demanding. You cant copy notes from your classmates on this one, but think of how your CV appears if you have an LLM in International and European Law considering that it covers the rapidly expanding European Union including perhaps, international environmental law and of course,business law. From the standpoint of a better CV, it does look impressive :)

I would choose Utrecht - has LLM in both International and European Law, good for law firms and clients. Should you decide to take only one course in European law, still your final degree would be : ``Master of International AND European Law´´, quite neat. :) It allows you to choose a variety of subjects too. It is academically harder perhaps because it requires moot court subjects and preparing for an international law moot court of the Jessup type is demanding. You cant copy notes from your classmates on this one, but think of how your CV appears if you have an LLM in International and European Law considering that it covers the rapidly expanding European Union including perhaps, international environmental law and of course,business law. From the standpoint of a better CV, it does look impressive :)
quote
tresna

i suggest you look on one more option,
Rijksuiversiteit Groningen (Univ of Groningen).
I've been there a year, and have a real great time!
i love that city and looking forward to go there again. *wink*
If you check it in www.qanu.nl which has been translated above, you can see that RUG is the best one because it gets 7 point of GOOD!
but if you like to have fun, then it's better to go for an llm in ams ;PPP
i took the international economic and business law program.
but utrecht and leiden are very famous hehehe...

i suggest you look on one more option,
Rijksuiversiteit Groningen (Univ of Groningen).
I've been there a year, and have a real great time!
i love that city and looking forward to go there again. *wink*
If you check it in www.qanu.nl which has been translated above, you can see that RUG is the best one because it gets 7 point of GOOD!
but if you like to have fun, then it's better to go for an llm in ams ;PPP
i took the international economic and business law program.
but utrecht and leiden are very famous hehehe...
quote
tresna

for tilburg,
it's a famous law scholl in nl also..
for erasmus, the law scholl is not really good.
they are famous in business program, from what i heard.
but for me, still... groningen is the best.
and it's cheap!!!!!!!
for leiden, i heard that there are internal problems there, is that rite?
and for utrecht, one of my prof is graduated from utrecht and then choose groningen because he saw the good prospect in RuG

for tilburg,
it's a famous law scholl in nl also..
for erasmus, the law scholl is not really good.
they are famous in business program, from what i heard.
but for me, still... groningen is the best.
and it's cheap!!!!!!!
for leiden, i heard that there are internal problems there, is that rite?
and for utrecht, one of my prof is graduated from utrecht and then choose groningen because he saw the good prospect in RuG
quote
axelw

Thanx everyone for their replies, they have been very helpful. I think I finally made up my mind. I'm going with the first school I applied to and the one that initially got me going. Anyway thanks everyone this forum is awesome, you can really get great information here.

I'll read your posts at Utrecht...

axelw

Thanx everyone for their replies, they have been very helpful. I think I finally made up my mind. I'm going with the first school I applied to and the one that initially got me going. Anyway thanks everyone this forum is awesome, you can really get great information here.

I'll read your posts at Utrecht...

axelw
quote
Raxy

Does anyone know anything about Vrije University Amsterdam programme in international commercial and trade law? I've got their letter of admissions. I also received a full scholarship... However, I'm not sure abobut the quality of the programme.. is it worth of spending a year there and more importantly, a scholarship that I've got recently?

Does anyone know anything about Vrije University Amsterdam programme in international commercial and trade law? I've got their letter of admissions. I also received a full scholarship... However, I'm not sure abobut the quality of the programme.. is it worth of spending a year there and more importantly, a scholarship that I've got recently?
quote
UCHKEKEN

Dear all! I'm Kemal from North Caucasus (Russia).
I have been admitted to LLM programme in Leiden University (European Business Law). I am confused now. Is it a nice way to study in Master course in Leiden and will it easy to me to find a job in some companies or legal firms?
It s a very important to me. Im a newcomer and please excuse for some my naivety questions. Kemal.

Dear all! I'm Kemal from North Caucasus (Russia).
I have been admitted to LLM programme in Leiden University (European Business Law). I am confused now. Is it a nice way to study in Master course in Leiden and will it easy to me to find a job in some companies or legal firms?
It” s a very important to me. I’m a newcomer and please excuse for some my naivety questions. Kemal.
quote
roeland

Hi guys,

I am graduating at Maastricht University (European Law School) and I am employed as a student assistent over there. I work for the Chairman of the education institute so I have inside information about the ranking of the programs. I am a bit concerned about your knowledge of the rankings of the different dutch programs. I know for 100% sure that Maastricht University is qualified as best university for 2 successive years. This year even two research institutes found Maastricht the best one. Another argument is that maastricht university participates in all the moot courts. With regard to the ELMC one that reached 4 times the final out of 11 editions. The groups that reached the final also consisted out of LLM students. Recently a group of LLM students became third at the WTO Moot Court in Geneva.
Further I also have a lot of contact with the LLM students as a graduating student (assistant). Concrete results are that two LLM students of the Maastricht MIC program (Magister Iuris Communis) managed to get into the Blue Book of the European Union. One recently got into the WTO.
So I would definitely advise you students considering doing an LLM program in the Netherlands look at the information on the MIC program!!!

Hi guys,

I am graduating at Maastricht University (European Law School) and I am employed as a student assistent over there. I work for the Chairman of the education institute so I have inside information about the ranking of the programs. I am a bit concerned about your knowledge of the rankings of the different dutch programs. I know for 100% sure that Maastricht University is qualified as best university for 2 successive years. This year even two research institutes found Maastricht the best one. Another argument is that maastricht university participates in all the moot courts. With regard to the ELMC one that reached 4 times the final out of 11 editions. The groups that reached the final also consisted out of LLM students. Recently a group of LLM students became third at the WTO Moot Court in Geneva.
Further I also have a lot of contact with the LLM students as a graduating student (assistant). Concrete results are that two LLM students of the Maastricht MIC program (Magister Iuris Communis) managed to get into the Blue Book of the European Union. One recently got into the WTO.
So I would definitely advise you students considering doing an LLM program in the Netherlands look at the information on the MIC program!!!
quote
dunny

i suggest you look on one more option,
Rijksuiversiteit Groningen (Univ of Groningen).
I've been there a year, and have a real great time!
i love that city and looking forward to go there again. *wink*
If you check it in www.qanu.nl which has been translated above, you can see that RUG is the best one because it gets 7 point of GOOD!
but if you like to have fun, then it's better to go for an llm in ams ;PPP
i took the international economic and business law program.
but utrecht and leiden are very famous hehehe...


I'm interested too in how Groningen compares to Utrecht and Leiden. From the scores above, it seems to be the best law school in the Netherlands. Would it make sense to choose it over UU or Leiden?

<blockquote>i suggest you look on one more option,
Rijksuiversiteit Groningen (Univ of Groningen).
I've been there a year, and have a real great time!
i love that city and looking forward to go there again. *wink*
If you check it in www.qanu.nl which has been translated above, you can see that RUG is the best one because it gets 7 point of GOOD!
but if you like to have fun, then it's better to go for an llm in ams ;PPP
i took the international economic and business law program.
but utrecht and leiden are very famous hehehe...</blockquote>

I'm interested too in how Groningen compares to Utrecht and Leiden. From the scores above, it seems to be the best law school in the Netherlands. Would it make sense to choose it over UU or Leiden?
quote
dunny

I'm curious too how Groningen compares to Utrecht and Leiden. From the scores posted above, it seems to be the best law school in the Netherlands. Would it make sense to choose it over UU or Leiden?

Dunny

I'm curious too how Groningen compares to Utrecht and Leiden. From the scores posted above, it seems to be the best law school in the Netherlands. Would it make sense to choose it over UU or Leiden?

Dunny
quote
roeland

Dear mr. Dunny,

The inquiry you are referring to dates from the period 1996-2001 so I want to point at more recent ones. Further I can assure that the institution has no authority in assessing universities. The institutions that have a reputation on this field are: the Dutch (federal) ministry of education, culture and sciences, de 'keuzegids' and Elsevier. The first two concluded in 2004 that Maastricht University was the best overall university. Elsevier only says this with regard to the European Law departement.
At this website you find the report of the 'keuzegids' that dates from 2004. Page 3 shows the ranking:
http://www.utwente.nl/jaarverslag/onderwijs/performance/uitgelicht/keuzegids.pdf
I also give you a link that discusses Leiden's reputation that was traditionally quite good however the last years its image is declining. The article is in dutch so anyone that does not believe me on my word needs to consult a translator:
http://www.lvsa.nl/.
Maybe you guys find this stupid but I have no interest promoting Maastricht: I am graduating and will do my LLM at Ghent Law School.
Again I want to share the information I got as an student assistant with you guys. In fact I was trilled that Dunny (without insulting him) alleged that RUG is the best university by referring to an inquiry of 10 years ago. Science is in progress!!!

Roeland

Dear mr. Dunny,

The inquiry you are referring to dates from the period 1996-2001 so I want to point at more recent ones. Further I can assure that the institution has no authority in assessing universities. The institutions that have a reputation on this field are: the Dutch (federal) ministry of education, culture and sciences, de 'keuzegids' and Elsevier. The first two concluded in 2004 that Maastricht University was the best overall university. Elsevier only says this with regard to the European Law departement.
At this website you find the report of the 'keuzegids' that dates from 2004. Page 3 shows the ranking:
http://www.utwente.nl/jaarverslag/onderwijs/performance/uitgelicht/keuzegids.pdf
I also give you a link that discusses Leiden's reputation that was traditionally quite good however the last years its image is declining. The article is in dutch so anyone that does not believe me on my word needs to consult a translator:
http://www.lvsa.nl/.
Maybe you guys find this stupid but I have no interest promoting Maastricht: I am graduating and will do my LLM at Ghent Law School.
Again I want to share the information I got as an student assistant with you guys. In fact I was trilled that Dunny (without insulting him) alleged that RUG is the best university by referring to an inquiry of 10 years ago. Science is in progress!!!

Roeland
quote
Marks

Dear Mr. Roeland, actually, Dunny was just quoting Tresna's post!

Dear Mr. Roeland, actually, Dunny was just quoting Tresna's post!
quote
roeland

Dear Marks,

My answer was just of a general nature, it certainly was no attack. I recently noted that Tresna was also aware of the problems that were going on in Leiden. I don't get why this website still is presenting it as a favourable program?

Dear Marks,

My answer was just of a general nature, it certainly was no attack. I recently noted that Tresna was also aware of the problems that were going on in Leiden. I don't get why this website still is presenting it as a favourable program?
quote
Marks

Dear Roeland,
thanks for your links, quite interesting stuff. Still, my personal view is that Leiden ist a very good university with a long tradition in teaching law. To me, the whole ranking issue seems to be overrated in Europe. Rankings may be important in the UK and the US. We continental Europeans should be proud that we have so numerous good universities, maybe not Harvards, though... :-)
Marks

Dear Roeland,
thanks for your links, quite interesting stuff. Still, my personal view is that Leiden ist a very good university with a long tradition in teaching law. To me, the whole ranking issue seems to be overrated in Europe. Rankings may be important in the UK and the US. We continental Europeans should be proud that we have so numerous good universities, maybe not Harvards, though... :-)
Marks
quote
bot123

On the differences between the Dutch Law Schools

The general level of University education in the Netherlands is at a very good level. The general Bachelor programs at Dutch Law Schools are very similar (to some extent due to requirements of the Dutch Bar Council). If you want to focus on differences between the programs, you should be aware of the marginal importance of these facts. Some differences of interest are: the student-staff ratio (e.g.,Tilburg University and Free University Amsterdam have approx. 1 member of staff per 26 students and Leiden and Amsterdam you'll be with approx. 57 students, for figures see below), and the reputation of a Law School in research (see below).

For Master programs this is a bit different, because of the specialized nature of these programs. For Dutch Law Schools is rather common that every significant research group within the school does have its own Master. Because most of the professors and lecturers will be provided by these research groups their reputation/quality (especially in research) is of importance. Another factor you should look at is the maximum number of people that can be admitted to a program. I would prefer smaller groups, because there may be more interaction between professors and students. For the reputation of research groups you may just ask the Law School. Good sources are quality assesment reports by the QANU (Foundation Quality Assurance Netherlands Universities: www.qanu.nl) or assesments carried out by the universities themselves.

Also of interest is that in the Netherlands several universities offer more academic oriented master programs (research masters, most of them resulting in a M.Phil and a LL.M degree). These two-year programs offer courses on legal research, but also have specific focus on a specific area of the law. Currently Utrecht University, Tilburg University, Groningen University, Nijmegen University and Maastricht University offer such programs. In general the number of students is limited and some of these masters offer Ph.D positions for the top students after the master. There are differences between the programs.

Recent figures on Research Quality can be found at:
http://www.qanu.nl/comasy/uploadedfiles/recht%5B2%5D.Internet.pdf (period 1995-2000, new report not yet available). The overall score of Tilburg University was the best, but the quality of the specific research group can be more important.

Student-Staff ratio (QANU: 1996-2001)
source: http://www.qanu.nl/comasy/uploadedfiles/Rechtsgeleerdheidwebsite.pdf (Dutch)

Tilburg University (UvT) 24,1
Free University Amsterdam (VU) 26,5
Radboud University Nijmegen 26,5
Maastricht University (UM) 31,7
Groningen University (RUG) 39,6
Utrecht University (UU) 41,4
Erasmus University Rotterdam (EUR) 47,4
Leiden University (UL) 57,3
University of Amsterdam (UvA) 57,5

On the differences between the Dutch Law Schools

The general level of University education in the Netherlands is at a very good level. The general Bachelor programs at Dutch Law Schools are very similar (to some extent due to requirements of the Dutch Bar Council). If you want to focus on differences between the programs, you should be aware of the marginal importance of these facts. Some differences of interest are: the student-staff ratio (e.g.,Tilburg University and Free University Amsterdam have approx. 1 member of staff per 26 students and Leiden and Amsterdam you'll be with approx. 57 students, for figures see below), and the reputation of a Law School in research (see below).

For Master programs this is a bit different, because of the specialized nature of these programs. For Dutch Law Schools is rather common that every significant research group within the school does have its own Master. Because most of the professors and lecturers will be provided by these research groups their reputation/quality (especially in research) is of importance. Another factor you should look at is the maximum number of people that can be admitted to a program. I would prefer smaller groups, because there may be more interaction between professors and students. For the reputation of research groups you may just ask the Law School. Good sources are quality assesment reports by the QANU (Foundation Quality Assurance Netherlands Universities: www.qanu.nl) or assesments carried out by the universities themselves.

Also of interest is that in the Netherlands several universities offer more academic oriented master programs (research masters, most of them resulting in a M.Phil and a LL.M degree). These two-year programs offer courses on legal research, but also have specific focus on a specific area of the law. Currently Utrecht University, Tilburg University, Groningen University, Nijmegen University and Maastricht University offer such programs. In general the number of students is limited and some of these masters offer Ph.D positions for the top students after the master. There are differences between the programs.

Recent figures on Research Quality can be found at:
http://www.qanu.nl/comasy/uploadedfiles/recht%5B2%5D.Internet.pdf (period 1995-2000, new report not yet available). The overall score of Tilburg University was the best, but the quality of the specific research group can be more important.

Student-Staff ratio (QANU: 1996-2001)
source: http://www.qanu.nl/comasy/uploadedfiles/Rechtsgeleerdheidwebsite.pdf (Dutch)

Tilburg University (UvT) 24,1
Free University Amsterdam (VU) 26,5
Radboud University Nijmegen 26,5
Maastricht University (UM) 31,7
Groningen University (RUG) 39,6
Utrecht University (UU) 41,4
Erasmus University Rotterdam (EUR) 47,4
Leiden University (UL) 57,3
University of Amsterdam (UvA) 57,5
quote
Marks

Thanks for this thorough post! Just one question: Do you know where to find information about the master programme at Radboud University Nijmegen?

Thanks for this thorough post! Just one question: Do you know where to find information about the master programme at Radboud University Nijmegen?
quote
roeland

Dear Marks

Nijmegen has no postgraduate masters.

Dear Marks

Nijmegen has no postgraduate masters.
quote

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