Employability


ivan2006

Ivan, you are right contacts were important (as they always are) but please consider that my goal was just to stay in the USA a couple of years and then come back to Europe (london or Italy again).

I am not saying that you are wrong, but simply that I think we are all (me and you in particolar) missing something here.

My point is that to be really different you should make an LLM in China (living in Shangai now represents exactly what was living in N Y in 1907 or in Rome in 107 d.c.!!!!!). That would really make you different from the others and a go to guy for law firms that will fight for you.

In NY there are simply too many students who want the same thing that you are looking for. This managing partner told me once that during the job fair at a certian stage he couldn't remember the face of all the students he had seen in front of him!

LLMS now are of course important and in general a good thing to have in your CV but at the end it all depends at what you are looking for as a job.

Do you want to be hired in a company or in an international organization? well the LLM is certainly a good thing for you.

Do you want to become partner in a european law firm and do you think that an LLM would give you the possibility to meet new clients? Sorry I don't think an LLM will speed up this process. Contacts in NY are not so easy to get, becuase NY is simply the place to be for all people in the world.

That's why I think considering L.A.(and not Berkeley) can be a factor for contacts (even if I am afraid it's becoming more and more a japanese market). Maybe you can find clients that need someone able to understand Italian (in my case of course) and that simply are looking into californian market becuase NY is just too full....may sounds strange i understand it, but believe there is life in the west cost!

Re the alumni and network, well let me say that at least in Italy this is really something that does not work. I know a lot of Upenn and NYU former LLMs who go out to enjoy (and this is always good), but sure they did not use this network to find jobs, or similar things....

and finally, let me say it... the real open markets are those in Asia, like India or China....man believe me I went there for a transaction and I could not believe it...they are bulding entire blocks of houses in just one week! That's the place to make business at 100%!!!!

but at the end reality is that LLM is also a great experience of life, and honestly speaking, I can't wait to have again a life like a student!

I hope the above proves to be useful, in any case good luck to all of you!



Well, I agree with some of your arguments: I agree that an LLM is not going to make you a partner at your firm. I agree that NY is "overlawyered". And I agree that you could use your expertise of the Californian market to your advantage in the future, since you could be the main reference to the professionals you get to know there. Indeed, California is a great market, and although you may feel it is far from Europe (when it comes to Europe, NY is still the place to be), you have a big connection with the Asian market. And I agree with you when you say that China or India are the hottest countries nowadays. But I have not figured out from what you say is how you will bridge the gap between where you come from and where you want to go. As josepidal said, there are a lot of Indian-American and Chinese-American JDs who master hindi or mandarin here in the US, and these guys (and the Indian and Chinese LLMs) are the ones who will get the jobs related to India or China in NY, LA or SF. It is not my intention to question your motivations, but I wonder how you plan to achieve your second goal (i.e. be where the business is) by pursuing an LLM in US law in the United States. Your 1st goal (make contacts in a cool market where there will be less Italians) is clear to me.

<blockquote>Ivan, you are right contacts were important (as they always are) but please consider that my goal was just to stay in the USA a couple of years and then come back to Europe (london or Italy again).

I am not saying that you are wrong, but simply that I think we are all (me and you in particolar) missing something here.

My point is that to be really different you should make an LLM in China (living in Shangai now represents exactly what was living in N Y in 1907 or in Rome in 107 d.c.!!!!!). That would really make you different from the others and a go to guy for law firms that will fight for you.

In NY there are simply too many students who want the same thing that you are looking for. This managing partner told me once that during the job fair at a certian stage he couldn't remember the face of all the students he had seen in front of him!

LLMS now are of course important and in general a good thing to have in your CV but at the end it all depends at what you are looking for as a job.

Do you want to be hired in a company or in an international organization? well the LLM is certainly a good thing for you.

Do you want to become partner in a european law firm and do you think that an LLM would give you the possibility to meet new clients? Sorry I don't think an LLM will speed up this process. Contacts in NY are not so easy to get, becuase NY is simply the place to be for all people in the world.

That's why I think considering L.A.(and not Berkeley) can be a factor for contacts (even if I am afraid it's becoming more and more a japanese market). Maybe you can find clients that need someone able to understand Italian (in my case of course) and that simply are looking into californian market becuase NY is just too full....may sounds strange i understand it, but believe there is life in the west cost!

Re the alumni and network, well let me say that at least in Italy this is really something that does not work. I know a lot of Upenn and NYU former LLMs who go out to enjoy (and this is always good), but sure they did not use this network to find jobs, or similar things....

and finally, let me say it... the real open markets are those in Asia, like India or China....man believe me I went there for a transaction and I could not believe it...they are bulding entire blocks of houses in just one week! That's the place to make business at 100%!!!!

but at the end reality is that LLM is also a great experience of life, and honestly speaking, I can't wait to have again a life like a student!

I hope the above proves to be useful, in any case good luck to all of you!

</blockquote>

Well, I agree with some of your arguments: I agree that an LLM is not going to make you a partner at your firm. I agree that NY is "overlawyered". And I agree that you could use your expertise of the Californian market to your advantage in the future, since you could be the main reference to the professionals you get to know there. Indeed, California is a great market, and although you may feel it is far from Europe (when it comes to Europe, NY is still the place to be), you have a big connection with the Asian market. And I agree with you when you say that China or India are the hottest countries nowadays. But I have not figured out from what you say is how you will bridge the gap between where you come from and where you want to go. As josepidal said, there are a lot of Indian-American and Chinese-American JDs who master hindi or mandarin here in the US, and these guys (and the Indian and Chinese LLMs) are the ones who will get the jobs related to India or China in NY, LA or SF. It is not my intention to question your motivations, but I wonder how you plan to achieve your second goal (i.e. be where the business is) by pursuing an LLM in US law in the United States. Your 1st goal (make contacts in a cool market where there will be less Italians) is clear to me.
quote
ivan2006

Thanks Ivan, yueping and josepidal. It is a relief to know that the grading system is not very different between Upenn and NYU. Though it may seem very silly, I was kind of concerned about this factor especially since I will have had only 1 year experience prior to LL.M.

In that case, I guess I feel more inclined to opt for NYU especially since I have been offered some amount of financial aid+NY city+internationally, NYU holds a more attractive name. HOwever in favour of Upenn i do want the opportunity to take classes at Wharton....But then if I do take NYU I am contemplating to enroll myself for the advanced certificate program at Stern which is also pretty cool.

It's a very important concern, especially with just one year of experience. However, the Ivies grade the same, and if you're lucky enough to get straight As, you can even note that your school doesn't use A+ses.

If you'll take an unbiased opinion in Ivan's support though, there was a discussion somewhere in this forum about the benefits of cross-registration in the B school. You'd learn a lot sitting in a Wharton class, but I have not found any substantiation whatsoever that it's of particular importance TO EMPLOYERS.

If you're going to make that the tiebreaker for choosing between two schools and you are largely concerned with employment, let me opine that you're giving it far too much weight. Even having a certificate or concentration or what have you is not in itself very significant since you'll be handing them a specific list of your subjects anyway.

(Someone thanking yueping? Whoa! Heh.)


I agree with josepidal when he says that taking courses at a b-school should not be your main motivation at the time of choosing a law school. An LLM is a master in laws, isn´t it? Although your experience may be richer if you are able to enroll in some cool business courses, you should bear in mind that if you want to concentrate on business, you should pursue an MBA. Having said that, I think it can be advantageous to enroll in business courses provided that they make sense in your transcript. Will employers like it? Well, I confess I do not know. But I guess if you take some interesting b-school courses in addition to your law ones you will be able to have an additional (and interesting) topic of conversation during an interview.

<blockquote><blockquote>Thanks Ivan, yueping and josepidal. It is a relief to know that the grading system is not very different between Upenn and NYU. Though it may seem very silly, I was kind of concerned about this factor especially since I will have had only 1 year experience prior to LL.M.

In that case, I guess I feel more inclined to opt for NYU especially since I have been offered some amount of financial aid+NY city+internationally, NYU holds a more attractive name. HOwever in favour of Upenn i do want the opportunity to take classes at Wharton....But then if I do take NYU I am contemplating to enroll myself for the advanced certificate program at Stern which is also pretty cool. </blockquote>
It's a very important concern, especially with just one year of experience. However, the Ivies grade the same, and if you're lucky enough to get straight As, you can even note that your school doesn't use A+ses.

If you'll take an unbiased opinion in Ivan's support though, there was a discussion somewhere in this forum about the benefits of cross-registration in the B school. You'd learn a lot sitting in a Wharton class, but I have not found any substantiation whatsoever that it's of particular importance TO EMPLOYERS.

If you're going to make that the tiebreaker for choosing between two schools and you are largely concerned with employment, let me opine that you're giving it far too much weight. Even having a certificate or concentration or what have you is not in itself very significant since you'll be handing them a specific list of your subjects anyway.

(Someone thanking yueping? Whoa! Heh.)</blockquote>

I agree with josepidal when he says that taking courses at a b-school should not be your main motivation at the time of choosing a law school. An LLM is a master in laws, isn´t it? Although your experience may be richer if you are able to enroll in some cool business courses, you should bear in mind that if you want to concentrate on business, you should pursue an MBA. Having said that, I think it can be advantageous to enroll in business courses provided that they make sense in your transcript. Will employers like it? Well, I confess I do not know. But I guess if you take some interesting b-school courses in addition to your law ones you will be able to have an additional (and interesting) topic of conversation during an interview.

quote
josepidal

Just want to clarify, again, my comments as they are easily misconstrued:

1) Cross-registering in your allied B-school is great for your education, and were I in Penn I'd jump at the chance to be in Wharton.

2) I just don't think it matters TO EMPLOYERS significantly (unless you take a full MBA).

I reemphasize the context we've been discussing.

Just want to clarify, again, my comments as they are easily misconstrued:

1) Cross-registering in your allied B-school is great for your education, and were I in Penn I'd jump at the chance to be in Wharton.

2) I just don't think it matters TO EMPLOYERS significantly (unless you take a full MBA).

I reemphasize the context we've been discussing.
quote
josepidal

and what about Europeans with LLM education or work experience in China?

Remember, some Magic Circle firms had a big head start getting into China.

<blockquote>and what about Europeans with LLM education or work experience in China?</blockquote>
Remember, some Magic Circle firms had a big head start getting into China.
quote
caplaz

Dear Ivan, well reality is that I don't want to compete with people you mentioned in your last post (mandarin is, I am afraid, essential in this sense).

I just want to have a good experience in the USA and if possible meet new potential client on a market still not discovered by Italians. Staying where the business is is something that I don't want to do as I see my future back to Italy after two years of USA.... maybe with good connection in LA or NY.

What I was saying about China was referring to a different context (i.e. the fact that if you are an Italian company and you are looking for a lawyer to work with for a project in China it's really, really difficult to find the right man for you!)

Dear Ivan, well reality is that I don't want to compete with people you mentioned in your last post (mandarin is, I am afraid, essential in this sense).

I just want to have a good experience in the USA and if possible meet new potential client on a market still not discovered by Italians. Staying where the business is is something that I don't want to do as I see my future back to Italy after two years of USA.... maybe with good connection in LA or NY.

What I was saying about China was referring to a different context (i.e. the fact that if you are an Italian company and you are looking for a lawyer to work with for a project in China it's really, really difficult to find the right man for you!)
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ivan2006

It makes sense. Good luck!

It makes sense. Good luck!
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acad2007

Dear Ivan, I do understand that the certificate program at B-school is not why I applied for an LL.M, but like you mentioned it will enrich my experience, plus I believe that for corporate law a strong understadning of financial subjects is very helpful which is what I was hoping to gain by undertaking the advanced program at Stern. At the end of the day if I have to make a choice between 2 brilliant schools, im just trying to safeguard my interests to the maximum extent possible. Nevertheless, I appreciate the points put forth by you and josepidal and understand that employers dont care very much about my base in finance. So basically, its the name of the University that matters and if you're lucky and get good grades then its a good start.

On a different note however, I have received an acceptance from Columbia today. Ivan, since you have graduated from NYU, do you think NYU has any advantage over Columbia where placement rate is concerned. Is there any criteria (from your experience) that you think I should consider in order to make a decision.

Dear Ivan, I do understand that the certificate program at B-school is not why I applied for an LL.M, but like you mentioned it will enrich my experience, plus I believe that for corporate law a strong understadning of financial subjects is very helpful which is what I was hoping to gain by undertaking the advanced program at Stern. At the end of the day if I have to make a choice between 2 brilliant schools, im just trying to safeguard my interests to the maximum extent possible. Nevertheless, I appreciate the points put forth by you and josepidal and understand that employers dont care very much about my base in finance. So basically, its the name of the University that matters and if you're lucky and get good grades then its a good start.

On a different note however, I have received an acceptance from Columbia today. Ivan, since you have graduated from NYU, do you think NYU has any advantage over Columbia where placement rate is concerned. Is there any criteria (from your experience) that you think I should consider in order to make a decision.
quote
ivan2006

From an academic perspective, I would say that unless you want to specialize in tax law, NYU is not substantially better than Columbia in any field, so I guess you will have to compare the academic programmes and the courses offered in order to reach a decision. Regarding placement, I do not have any data that could allow me to compare placement rates among LLMs that graduated from Columbia and NYU - sorry for that. In any case, I believe you will have decent job prospects no matter which school you choose. Good luck in your decision!

From an academic perspective, I would say that unless you want to specialize in tax law, NYU is not substantially better than Columbia in any field, so I guess you will have to compare the academic programmes and the courses offered in order to reach a decision. Regarding placement, I do not have any data that could allow me to compare placement rates among LLMs that graduated from Columbia and NYU - sorry for that. In any case, I believe you will have decent job prospects no matter which school you choose. Good luck in your decision!
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josepidal

Anecdotal evidence hints that (outside Tax), NYU and Columbia are about even in employability.

Anecdotal evidence hints that (outside Tax), NYU and Columbia are about even in employability.
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acad2007

Thanks for the insight. It has been very informative and helpful. I guess its no point thinking too hard about such minute details. All the best to everyone and thanks once again.

Thanks for the insight. It has been very informative and helpful. I guess its no point thinking too hard about such minute details. All the best to everyone and thanks once again.
quote

hey
I been a passive reader of dis forum n these posts make for one hulluva interestin readin ..besides being informative, of course. I have been admitted to UCLA with scholarship but im still waitin for the "big four" to respond. Nevertheless, id like to ask dis: would d prospects of findin a job in USA be easier being an asian in CA? considerin d hot debate here abt india being the hot market n CA-asian connection...

hey
I been a passive reader of dis forum n these posts make for one hulluva interestin readin ..besides being informative, of course. I have been admitted to UCLA with scholarship but im still waitin for the "big four" to respond. Nevertheless, id like to ask dis: would d prospects of findin a job in USA be easier being an asian in CA? considerin d hot debate here abt india being the hot market n CA-asian connection...
quote
josepidal

Hint: There's a discussion about UCLA somewhere in this forum.

Giveaway: It's very, very close.

Hint: There's a discussion about UCLA somewhere in this forum.

Giveaway: It's very, very close.
quote
fg

I can't really speak to the employability of NYU v Columbia but the job fair may differ a bit between the schools. The Columbia students get interviewed at the same times as all the other Ivies (Penn, Harvard, Yale) which may affect the employers present at the job fair. The Ivy League job fair is an all round weird experience as each interview takes place in a hotel room (complete with bed and everything - very odd). The NYU job fair, from my understanding, is in an open plan hall so you can hear the person next to you being interviewed which is also weird.
If you are interested in international law I think NYU does a better job at placing their LLM grads in internships and provides stipends for them.

I can't really speak to the employability of NYU v Columbia but the job fair may differ a bit between the schools. The Columbia students get interviewed at the same times as all the other Ivies (Penn, Harvard, Yale) which may affect the employers present at the job fair. The Ivy League job fair is an all round weird experience as each interview takes place in a hotel room (complete with bed and everything - very odd). The NYU job fair, from my understanding, is in an open plan hall so you can hear the person next to you being interviewed which is also weird.
If you are interested in international law I think NYU does a better job at placing their LLM grads in internships and provides stipends for them.
quote

thanx josepidal
i had read tht already...n was equally confused after readin it...
hence d query!!!!!!

thanx josepidal
i had read tht already...n was equally confused after readin it...
hence d query!!!!!!
quote
marina81

Stanford participates:

- in the Columbia Job Fair held in New York City at the end of January of each year (in cooperation with Yale, Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago, University of Michigan and University of Virginia);

but also

- in the new "West Coast LL.M. Job Fair" to be held this year on Friday, April 13 in Los Angeles (in cooperation with UCLA, Berkeley and many other West Coast law schools).

So if you are interested in landing a job in the U.S. either in California or in New York, Stanford is definitely a top choice.


Stanford participates:

- in the Columbia Job Fair held in New York City at the end of January of each year (in cooperation with Yale, Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago, University of Michigan and University of Virginia);

but also

- in the new "West Coast LL.M. Job Fair" to be held this year on Friday, April 13 in Los Angeles (in cooperation with UCLA, Berkeley and many other West Coast law schools).

So if you are interested in landing a job in the U.S. either in California or in New York, Stanford is definitely a top choice.
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josepidal

Okay, okay, let's not go into yueping mode here.

This is definitely true, but the context was choosing a lower-ranked regional favorite (i.e., anyone but Stanford who's still well-ranked) over Harvard, Columbia, NYU, etc., etc.

Okay, okay, let's not go into yueping mode here.

This is definitely true, but the context was choosing a lower-ranked regional favorite (i.e., anyone but Stanford who's still well-ranked) over Harvard, Columbia, NYU, etc., etc.
quote
marina81

Youre right Jose.

I am just very excited to celebrate this new Job Fair in Los Angeles which is an important step for the whole LLM community and to let other people know about it.

Maybe one day Yale, Harvard or Columbia will participate in this new event.

You’re right Jose.

I am just very excited to celebrate this new Job Fair in Los Angeles which is an important step for the whole LLM community and to let other people know about it.

Maybe one day Yale, Harvard or Columbia will participate in this new event.
quote
ivan2006

Jose, why did you say that? I was expecting that typical post saying that UPenn rocks, etc.

Talking seriously now, I guess there were 2 discussions going on here:
a) What makes you different makes you beautiful? Lower-ranked regional favorites (man, I loved that) vs. higher-ranked schools. Mainstream markets (NYC) vs. not-so-obvious markets for LLMs (Chicago, CA or TX).

b) LLMs with cross-registration with b-schools vs. LLMs with no courses at a b-school. Would an LLM candidate from an university that has a great business school (e.g. UPenn, Northwestern, UChicago) LLM be in a better position in comparison with an LLM from a higher-ranked university because they may attend classes at their respective business schools? (yueping and his clone will love this question, eh?)

Jose, why did you say that? I was expecting that typical post saying that UPenn rocks, etc.

Talking seriously now, I guess there were 2 discussions going on here:
a) What makes you different makes you beautiful? Lower-ranked regional favorites (man, I loved that) vs. higher-ranked schools. Mainstream markets (NYC) vs. not-so-obvious markets for LLMs (Chicago, CA or TX).

b) LLMs with cross-registration with b-schools vs. LLMs with no courses at a b-school. Would an LLM candidate from an university that has a great business school (e.g. UPenn, Northwestern, UChicago) LLM be in a better position in comparison with an LLM from a higher-ranked university because they may attend classes at their respective business schools? (yueping and his clone will love this question, eh?)

quote
josepidal

@Ivan: UPenn only rocks when it's not yueping making the argument. But how can you leave out HBS? Come on, I'm sure I can cite a number of irrelevant surveys and articles that show you HBS is still close to Wharton in the rankings!

@Marina: It shouldn't be hard at all. The only problem is that HLS, Columbia and NYU students would have to buy their own plane tickets for California.

@Ivan: UPenn only rocks when it's not yueping making the argument. But how can you leave out HBS? Come on, I'm sure I can cite a number of irrelevant surveys and articles that show you HBS is still close to Wharton in the rankings!

@Marina: It shouldn't be hard at all. The only problem is that HLS, Columbia and NYU students would have to buy their own plane tickets for California.
quote
ivan2006

hehehe
I did not forget HBS - I just wanted to mention great business schools of law schools that are not among the top 5 in the law school rankings... but HBS is ranked among the best b-schools in every single ranking. By the way, George W Bush is a Harvard MBA, isn´t he?

hehehe
I did not forget HBS - I just wanted to mention great business schools of law schools that are not among the top 5 in the law school rankings... but HBS is ranked among the best b-schools in every single ranking. By the way, George W Bush is a Harvard MBA, isn´t he?
quote

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