Employability


ivan2006

Maybe Josepidal´s comments could be interpreted in the following manner: most (I don´t dare to say all) of the LLMs who want really bad to stay in the US manage to do so at the end of the year. And what´s "really bad"? In my opinion, it means being ready to turn down the offers you may receive to return to your home country (by March many Europeans and Asians may have received offers) and to stay here until the Bar Exam - no matter what happens. I know 2 people that found jobs here in June and July last year... That was certainly a reward for their willpower...

Maybe Josepidal´s comments could be interpreted in the following manner: most (I don´t dare to say all) of the LLMs who want really bad to stay in the US manage to do so at the end of the year. And what´s "really bad"? In my opinion, it means being ready to turn down the offers you may receive to return to your home country (by March many Europeans and Asians may have received offers) and to stay here until the Bar Exam - no matter what happens. I know 2 people that found jobs here in June and July last year... That was certainly a reward for their willpower...
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josepidal

Ivan: That's fair, but I'd add that part of it might also be willingness to move down the ladder in case you are hit by bad luck (and there are random things that can happen at interviews and full callbacks, as you know). Your two favorite (alleged) Penn posters drop certain firms' names, but in such a large legal market, any firm in the Vault or AmLaw 100 (for lack of a better list) is a good one.

Ivan: That's fair, but I'd add that part of it might also be willingness to move down the ladder in case you are hit by bad luck (and there are random things that can happen at interviews and full callbacks, as you know). Your two favorite (alleged) Penn posters drop certain firms' names, but in such a large legal market, any firm in the Vault or AmLaw 100 (for lack of a better list) is a good one.
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yueping

What is the LLM e-group ?

And how does one be on your list of favorite posters ? :)

I think that the 100% figure given by your law school has been grossly exagerated. Even at a top law school, getting a job is not a walk in the park. Students at top 4 schools who managed to get jobs in the US and are now associates even say that it was a difficult process, and that quite a number of their classmates who wanted to stay in the US had to take an offer in their home country and go back as they cannot afford to be jobless.

And you know, it is very easy for the school to omit some data and consider that all those who eventually went back did not want to stay in the US, even though these people really wanted to stay, just to reach the 100 % figure and blow prospective students minds away.

After all, it just would not do for HLS' reputation if they had to admit that some of their students have been rejected, would it ?

What is the LLM e-group ?

And how does one be on your list of favorite posters ? :)

I think that the 100% figure given by your law school has been grossly exagerated. Even at a top law school, getting a job is not a walk in the park. Students at top 4 schools who managed to get jobs in the US and are now associates even say that it was a difficult process, and that quite a number of their classmates who wanted to stay in the US had to take an offer in their home country and go back as they cannot afford to be jobless.

And you know, it is very easy for the school to omit some data and consider that all those who eventually went back did not want to stay in the US, even though these people really wanted to stay, just to reach the 100 % figure and blow prospective students minds away.

After all, it just would not do for HLS' reputation if they had to admit that some of their students have been rejected, would it ?
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josepidal

...and on cue, Yueping throws his hat into the ring.

If you actually read the thread, you'll note that: 1) I did not say 100% of the entire class; 2) the job market some time back was very different; and 3) no one denies getting a US job is difficult and time-consuming.

But yes, we know that Penn Law LLMs already have jobs in Statler & Waldorf LLP and other prestigious firms (and not just lame one year internships), and that Penn Law LLMs are better than Chicago LLMs not to mention Georgetown LLMs, and that Penn Law LLMs are faster than speeding bullets, etc., etc.

...and on cue, Yueping throws his hat into the ring.

If you actually read the thread, you'll note that: 1) I did not say 100% of the entire class; 2) the job market some time back was very different; and 3) no one denies getting a US job is difficult and time-consuming.

But yes, we know that Penn Law LLMs already have jobs in Statler & Waldorf LLP and other prestigious firms (and not just lame one year internships), and that Penn Law LLMs are better than Chicago LLMs not to mention Georgetown LLMs, and that Penn Law LLMs are faster than speeding bullets, etc., etc.
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lauren85

NZ,

My first plan was to work for a branch of a US firm in London and hope to get moved. However, I thought that this way I may not even get moved, if I did it may not be for very long and it may not be locationally what I had hoped. If you think that the situation would be any different please let me know.

I'm hoping to make a life for myself out in the US and try to stay as long as possible. I'm worried my American dream won't happen. Not only that but I read conflicting advice, some say the LLM will be ok, others say it won't and I need to do a JD. I'm really confused! Can anyone help?

Lauren

NZ,

My first plan was to work for a branch of a US firm in London and hope to get moved. However, I thought that this way I may not even get moved, if I did it may not be for very long and it may not be locationally what I had hoped. If you think that the situation would be any different please let me know.

I'm hoping to make a life for myself out in the US and try to stay as long as possible. I'm worried my American dream won't happen. Not only that but I read conflicting advice, some say the LLM will be ok, others say it won't and I need to do a JD. I'm really confused! Can anyone help?

Lauren
quote
josepidal

Which underlying issues do you think you find conflict in?

Which underlying issues do you think you find conflict in?
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ivan2006

NZ,

My first plan was to work for a branch of a US firm in London and hope to get moved. However, I thought that this way I may not even get moved, if I did it may not be for very long and it may not be locationally what I had hoped. If you think that the situation would be any different please let me know.

I'm hoping to make a life for myself out in the US and try to stay as long as possible. I'm worried my American dream won't happen. Not only that but I read conflicting advice, some say the LLM will be ok, others say it won't and I need to do a JD. I'm really confused! Can anyone help?

Lauren


Hey, I think the answer may vary depending on your personal circumstances: if you want to stay in the US because you like this country, but you wouldn´t mind either to go back to the UK and work for a Magic Circle firm or the London office of an American firm if things do not go well, then I think an LLM could be a cheaper and marketable solution. If, however, you have significant personal links to the US (e.g. you date/ are married to an American, etc.) or have other strong personal reasons to stay in this country for a really long period, then you could think about a JD degree.

<blockquote>NZ,

My first plan was to work for a branch of a US firm in London and hope to get moved. However, I thought that this way I may not even get moved, if I did it may not be for very long and it may not be locationally what I had hoped. If you think that the situation would be any different please let me know.

I'm hoping to make a life for myself out in the US and try to stay as long as possible. I'm worried my American dream won't happen. Not only that but I read conflicting advice, some say the LLM will be ok, others say it won't and I need to do a JD. I'm really confused! Can anyone help?

Lauren</blockquote>

Hey, I think the answer may vary depending on your personal circumstances: if you want to stay in the US because you like this country, but you wouldn´t mind either to go back to the UK and work for a Magic Circle firm or the London office of an American firm if things do not go well, then I think an LLM could be a cheaper and marketable solution. If, however, you have significant personal links to the US (e.g. you date/ are married to an American, etc.) or have other strong personal reasons to stay in this country for a really long period, then you could think about a JD degree.
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lauren85

Hi,

I find the advice sometimes conflicting. Generally whether gaining an LLM would realistically be enough to secure employment.

Thanks for the advice Ivan. If I did an LLM in the US and enjoyed my time there then it's highly unlikely I'd want to return to London, especially as I do date an American. It looks like I may have to consider JD degree, I don't have any way to fund one of these though so I'm thinking I may have to choose a completely different career path altogether :(

Lauren

Hi,

I find the advice sometimes conflicting. Generally whether gaining an LLM would realistically be enough to secure employment.

Thanks for the advice Ivan. If I did an LLM in the US and enjoyed my time there then it's highly unlikely I'd want to return to London, especially as I do date an American. It looks like I may have to consider JD degree, I don't have any way to fund one of these though so I'm thinking I may have to choose a completely different career path altogether :(

Lauren
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josepidal

Again, the advice conflicts because there are a number of sub-issues, though being UK qualified is quite a plus. Thus, I asked which of the complex sub-issues you were particularly interested in.

Again, the advice conflicts because there are a number of sub-issues, though being UK qualified is quite a plus. Thus, I asked which of the complex sub-issues you were particularly interested in.
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NZ

Lauren

Given you already have a (UK) law degree, I would not spend the extra time, effort and cost pursuing a JD over an LLM. It seems unlikely you would be significantly more marketable with a JD.

The things likely to be important to an employer will be the US school at which you study, visa, grades and class rankings, publications, law review and work experience in the UK (although, this will be heavily discounted, usually by around 2 years by a US firm).

There is no magic answer to your question . Wherever you study, there is the risk that you will be unable to find an employment position in the US. However, there are two upsides to taking the plunge: (a) First, your chances of finding employment seem good at first blush given the current state of the market, but ultimately this will turn on the factors above; and (b) Secondly, even if you did an LLM and had to return home, all is not wasted because you would have secured some valuable letters.

NZ

Lauren

Given you already have a (UK) law degree, I would not spend the extra time, effort and cost pursuing a JD over an LLM. It seems unlikely you would be significantly more marketable with a JD.

The things likely to be important to an employer will be the US school at which you study, visa, grades and class rankings, publications, law review and work experience in the UK (although, this will be heavily discounted, usually by around 2 years by a US firm).

There is no magic answer to your question . Wherever you study, there is the risk that you will be unable to find an employment position in the US. However, there are two upsides to taking the plunge: (a) First, your chances of finding employment seem good at first blush given the current state of the market, but ultimately this will turn on the factors above; and (b) Secondly, even if you did an LLM and had to return home, all is not wasted because you would have secured some valuable letters.

NZ
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ivan2006

Again, the advice conflicts because there are a number of sub-issues, though being UK qualified is quite a plus. Thus, I asked which of the complex sub-issues you were particularly interested in.


Well noted... Being UK qualified she could sit for the Bar in NY and CA without an LLM.

<blockquote>Again, the advice conflicts because there are a number of sub-issues, though being UK qualified is quite a plus. Thus, I asked which of the complex sub-issues you were particularly interested in.</blockquote>

Well noted... Being UK qualified she could sit for the Bar in NY and CA without an LLM.
quote
lauren85

Hi guys,

Thanks for your help Jose and Ivan.

In regard to the sub-issues you mention Jose, I think I may be having a blonde moment because I'm unsure exactly what you are referring to? My main worry is that I don't want to waste a year of my life and all of my savings on an LLM if it's unlikely I could get a job somewhere. I'd be happy to work in California/New York, probably prefer the former though. I would have liked more geographical scope than this but appreciate that's just the state of affairs.

Also Jose, why would you think being UK qualified is a plus? Also, you mentioned a UK friend, did he do the LPC in England as well as a law degree and then do a LLM?

Ivan, why do you think I wouldn't be significantly more marketable with a JD? I do feel like I'm not keen to spend another 3 years studying. Does it come down to visa issues - are firms generally not willing to go through the hassle of dealing with my visa? Regarding work experience, I've just done some interning here and there and spent 6 months working in a small law office, would this not be taken into account?

Thanks again,

Lauren

Hi guys,

Thanks for your help Jose and Ivan.

In regard to the sub-issues you mention Jose, I think I may be having a blonde moment because I'm unsure exactly what you are referring to? My main worry is that I don't want to waste a year of my life and all of my savings on an LLM if it's unlikely I could get a job somewhere. I'd be happy to work in California/New York, probably prefer the former though. I would have liked more geographical scope than this but appreciate that's just the state of affairs.

Also Jose, why would you think being UK qualified is a plus? Also, you mentioned a UK friend, did he do the LPC in England as well as a law degree and then do a LLM?

Ivan, why do you think I wouldn't be significantly more marketable with a JD? I do feel like I'm not keen to spend another 3 years studying. Does it come down to visa issues - are firms generally not willing to go through the hassle of dealing with my visa? Regarding work experience, I've just done some interning here and there and spent 6 months working in a small law office, would this not be taken into account?

Thanks again,

Lauren
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josepidal

London is a major financial center, so being English has some automatic attraction.

London is a major financial center, so being English has some automatic attraction.
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ml17

Hey
I have offers both from US (Penn) and UK (Kings for taxation) so far. While many people might go for U Penn, Im not completely convinced. I think Kings has its merits too, apart from being considerably cheaper. But the decisive factor for me would be future employment. Where do I stand a better chance? I have a background in taxation and I think law firms primarily look for relevant work experience while looking for llm recruits

Hey
I have offers both from US (Penn) and UK (Kings for taxation) so far. While many people might go for U Penn, I’m not completely convinced. I think Kings has its merits too, apart from being considerably cheaper. But the decisive factor for me would be future employment. Where do I stand a better chance? I have a background in taxation and I think law firms primarily look for relevant work experience while looking for llm recruits
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josepidal

Possible apples and oranges. Where do you want to work in the first place?

Possible apples and oranges. Where do you want to work in the first place?
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figaro

Also Jose, why would you think being UK qualified is a plus?


I think you would have a better chance of getting a permanent job in the States compared to other LLMs since English is your mother tongue. And you are familiar with the common law system (but maybe this is trivial)...
Anyway, wish you good luck!

<blockquote>Also Jose, why would you think being UK qualified is a plus? </blockquote>

I think you would have a better chance of getting a permanent job in the States compared to other LLMs since English is your mother tongue. And you are familiar with the common law system (but maybe this is trivial)...
Anyway, wish you good luck!
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josepidal

I don't think being a native English speaker is a large component here. Note that there are a number of LLMs who were educated wholly in English, from certain countries in South Asia, Southeast Asia, and Africa.

I don't think being a native English speaker is a large component here. Note that there are a number of LLMs who were educated wholly in English, from certain countries in South Asia, Southeast Asia, and Africa.
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figaro

I don't think being a native English speaker is a large component here. Note that there are a number of LLMs who were educated wholly in English, from certain countries in South Asia, Southeast Asia, and Africa.


Possible, but I dont know how many there are and I personally dont know any LLM graduate who is an English native speaker.

Since I am not a native speaker myself, I just imagine that it would be much easier to find a job if I were - maybe someone wants to share his/her experience with regard to this?

But in the end, I guess it depens on what law firms are looking for. Either they want you because of your foreign background or they want you as a "normal" US associate, in which case your English skills will play a role.

<blockquote>I don't think being a native English speaker is a large component here. Note that there are a number of LLMs who were educated wholly in English, from certain countries in South Asia, Southeast Asia, and Africa.</blockquote>

Possible, but I dont know how many there are and I personally dont know any LLM graduate who is an English native speaker.

Since I am not a native speaker myself, I just imagine that it would be much easier to find a job if I were - maybe someone wants to share his/her experience with regard to this?

But in the end, I guess it depens on what law firms are looking for. Either they want you because of your foreign background or they want you as a "normal" US associate, in which case your English skills will play a role.
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ml17

if it comes to preference of place of employment, the answer would pretty much swing in favour of us. since with a us llm you have the option to work either in us or uk. whereas with a uk llm breaking into the us market might not be very easy (only in relative terms).

if it comes to preference of place of employment, the answer would pretty much swing in favour of us. since with a us llm you have the option to work either in us or uk. whereas with a uk llm breaking into the us market might not be very easy (only in relative terms).
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caplaz

Hi this is an Italian applicant who got admittance to NYU and UCLA and still is waiting for Columbia and Berkeley.

I am a lawyer registered at the Italian bar and I am already working since 3 years in a top tier italian law firm.

I went throught your posts (in particular those of Ivan2006) and I have to say that frankly speaking if your goal is to stay in the U.S.A. and you are european you should not pick NYU.

Maybe it's better to look at new LLM markets, like the californian one (I've heard that in 2007 there will be the first Californian Job Fair at UCLA).

If you want to choose NYU because NY is simply heaven, well go ahead but I think that in the market of today you have to find simply the new thing. NYU with a class of more than 400 people represents simply what you don't want to choose if your goal is to stay in the USA.

That's why I am considering UCLA more than NYU (no matter the rankings, expect the first 5 universities they are not useful at all).

I may be wrong about this, but I think that this is the way the market goes.

Any comments?

ciao to everybody

Hi this is an Italian applicant who got admittance to NYU and UCLA and still is waiting for Columbia and Berkeley.

I am a lawyer registered at the Italian bar and I am already working since 3 years in a top tier italian law firm.

I went throught your posts (in particular those of Ivan2006) and I have to say that frankly speaking if your goal is to stay in the U.S.A. and you are european you should not pick NYU.

Maybe it's better to look at new LLM markets, like the californian one (I've heard that in 2007 there will be the first Californian Job Fair at UCLA).

If you want to choose NYU because NY is simply heaven, well go ahead but I think that in the market of today you have to find simply the new thing. NYU with a class of more than 400 people represents simply what you don't want to choose if your goal is to stay in the USA.

That's why I am considering UCLA more than NYU (no matter the rankings, expect the first 5 universities they are not useful at all).

I may be wrong about this, but I think that this is the way the market goes.

Any comments?

ciao to everybody
quote

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