Columbia v/s NYU


Jammin

Aaoni, I totally agree with you in particular when you state that "job experiences and the connections you have in your home country really counts"
In addition, being able to attend John Coffee's classes I think would be something unique.

Ciao

Miki

Aaoni, I totally agree with you in particular when you state that "job experiences and the connections you have in your home country really counts"
In addition, being able to attend John Coffee's classes I think would be something unique.

Ciao

Miki
quote
kira008

Hi guys!

It was really interesting to follow u debates here.

I am doing international law, some corporate law experience and a quite diverse international organization experience ( UN, UNICEF, EU ) and presentlu I am facing the same dilemma as indiangirl: picking up NYU in Singapore with money or Columbia without.

I think that if I had to choose NYU without money or Columbia, I will definitely choose Columbia and the reason will still be the same..its name and marketability. I think NYU is very good school and has a lot to offer. However, Columbia is viewed as more conservative and thus a bit more prestigeous choice. I would not hesitate about one point though...NYU is a place for tax guys!

However, since I have a dilemma of NYU with money even in Singapore...or Columbia with nothing, but 50 K in loans, I do give a thought.

The point that makes me think hard though is quite questionabile opportunities with NUY@NUS degree at the US market. For me, doing the US school LL.M makes a sense only if I consider of staying and trying to find a job in the US.

So guys, even after reading your debates, I should admit I am still confused.... What do you think are opportunities for someone with a degree from NYU@NUS to land a job in the US?

Indiangirl: You said that you would not care about working in the US. From what I see, Singapore campus of NYU is targeting Asian market. If you want to stay in Asia and you are happy to work in India...why would you possibly like to spend additional 50 K for the Program at Columbia??? The only reasonable arguement that I can see ..NYC is a really nice place to be a student!!-)

Joerg: Concerning your agruement and statistics that more of the NYU graduates are hired by the UN, I can say that it is true that NYU is very well respected in the international organizations, BUT Columbia has a name! (I am insider, believe me, I know what I am talking about). The other thing....NYU LLM or Columbia LLM... nobody will give a damn!! (sorry, for being so strong on that). It will not be an LL.M that wll give u a job there, but a field experience, professional experience, very specific skills (that u cannot learn neither in Columbia nor in NYU, but only though internships or other opportunities of becoming an insider))..and of course connections.
All these you can get even without going to the top range US school and investing a huge amount of money into u education!

Hi guys!

It was really interesting to follow u debates here.

I am doing international law, some corporate law experience and a quite diverse international organization experience ( UN, UNICEF, EU ) and presentlu I am facing the same dilemma as indiangirl: picking up NYU in Singapore with money or Columbia without.

I think that if I had to choose NYU without money or Columbia, I will definitely choose Columbia and the reason will still be the same..its name and marketability. I think NYU is very good school and has a lot to offer. However, Columbia is viewed as more conservative and thus a bit more prestigeous choice. I would not hesitate about one point though...NYU is a place for tax guys!

However, since I have a dilemma of NYU with money even in Singapore...or Columbia with nothing, but 50 K in loans, I do give a thought.

The point that makes me think hard though is quite questionabile opportunities with NUY@NUS degree at the US market. For me, doing the US school LL.M makes a sense only if I consider of staying and trying to find a job in the US.

So guys, even after reading your debates, I should admit I am still confused.... What do you think are opportunities for someone with a degree from NYU@NUS to land a job in the US?

Indiangirl: You said that you would not care about working in the US. From what I see, Singapore campus of NYU is targeting Asian market. If you want to stay in Asia and you are happy to work in India...why would you possibly like to spend additional 50 K for the Program at Columbia??? The only reasonable arguement that I can see ..NYC is a really nice place to be a student!!-)

Joerg: Concerning your agruement and statistics that more of the NYU graduates are hired by the UN, I can say that it is true that NYU is very well respected in the international organizations, BUT Columbia has a name! (I am insider, believe me, I know what I am talking about). The other thing....NYU LLM or Columbia LLM... nobody will give a damn!! (sorry, for being so strong on that). It will not be an LL.M that wll give u a job there, but a field experience, professional experience, very specific skills (that u cannot learn neither in Columbia nor in NYU, but only though internships or other opportunities of becoming an insider))..and of course connections.
All these you can get even without going to the top range US school and investing a huge amount of money into u education!

quote
Humber

"...I can say that it is true that NYU is very well respected in the international organizations, BUT Columbia has a name! (I am insider, believe me, I know what I am talking about)."

Does this mean that if I in any case will be taking an LLM, and hope to work for an IO, I should in your opinion choose CLS over NYU?

(and then seek some connections, which, I suppose is why I am doing this internship in the hague)

"...I can say that it is true that NYU is very well respected in the international organizations, BUT Columbia has a name! (I am insider, believe me, I know what I am talking about)."

Does this mean that if I in any case will be taking an LLM, and hope to work for an IO, I should in your opinion choose CLS over NYU?

(and then seek some connections, which, I suppose is why I am doing this internship in the hague)
quote
kira008

Hey Humber!

Whatever choice you make, it will be fine. Being at the UN Hadquaters in NYC, I just felt that there is still a bit more appreciation of Columbia as a brand. However, honestly either Columbia or NYU will be a good choice.
On the other hand, if you are interning at the ICJ at the moment..and find out about opportunities around and get to know people...you might be able to skip the LL.M stage??
At least, whenever I talked with my colleagues who work for the IO, they all get surprised...what do I need US LL.M for?! However, it is all of course personal choice...

I just want to be a bit more diversified..and try out the international law firm world to experience a tough professional life....and earn a little bit of money, as well..
Once I was an intern at OLA, UN a few years ago, I remember my supervisor went on...."go to the real world, make some money...and then come back to appreciate the IO world-)"
Anyway, I think that more training on International law just never hurts...

Hey Humber!

Whatever choice you make, it will be fine. Being at the UN Hadquaters in NYC, I just felt that there is still a bit more appreciation of Columbia as a brand. However, honestly either Columbia or NYU will be a good choice.
On the other hand, if you are interning at the ICJ at the moment..and find out about opportunities around and get to know people...you might be able to skip the LL.M stage??
At least, whenever I talked with my colleagues who work for the IO, they all get surprised...what do I need US LL.M for?! However, it is all of course personal choice...

I just want to be a bit more diversified..and try out the international law firm world to experience a tough professional life....and earn a little bit of money, as well..
Once I was an intern at OLA, UN a few years ago, I remember my supervisor went on...."go to the real world, make some money...and then come back to appreciate the IO world-)"
Anyway, I think that more training on International law just never hurts...
quote
Humber

Kira08: Thanks, I do not regard what law school I pick from those I applied to as a matter of life or death, I guess it will be fine anyway. It's just one year. But it1s interesting to know that Columbia has a better name at the IOs. I remember, last summer at the Hague course one American law professor advised me to "keep away" from CLS, because many of the staff there went to NYU and not without reason.

To me (and I have reviewed the staff of both places quite thoroughly), it is quite clear that more cutting edge IL research is being done at NYU right now and that they have the biggest names.

But that does not necessarily mean I would pick NYU above CLS... Maybe I'll flip a coin?

I guess LLMs are not that helpful for working in IOs but...well, what you said:)

Kira08: Thanks, I do not regard what law school I pick from those I applied to as a matter of life or death, I guess it will be fine anyway. It's just one year. But it1s interesting to know that Columbia has a better name at the IOs. I remember, last summer at the Hague course one American law professor advised me to "keep away" from CLS, because many of the staff there went to NYU and not without reason.

To me (and I have reviewed the staff of both places quite thoroughly), it is quite clear that more cutting edge IL research is being done at NYU right now and that they have the biggest names.

But that does not necessarily mean I would pick NYU above CLS... Maybe I'll flip a coin?

I guess LLMs are not that helpful for working in IOs but...well, what you said:)
quote
indiangirl


Indiangirl: You said that you would not care about working in the US. From what I see, Singapore campus of NYU is targeting Asian market. If you want to stay in Asia and you are happy to work in India...why would you possibly like to spend additional 50 K for the Program at Columbia??? The only reasonable arguement that I can see ..NYC is a really nice place to be a student!!-)


@Kira --- Nice to read your posts, to the point!

I decided to chuck NYU@NUS with 35K and opt for CLS, and also wait for results from the bigger names. What have you decided? (Since you said you have the same dilemma)

I had the following points to consider for the decision:

1. NYU-NUS class has (too) many fresh grads without any work exposure, I expect CLS (and Harvard) will have pretty few.
2.The classes at NUS will be very intensive - only 3 weeks duration for a visiting professor. Not sure if that will provide the same level of isights on the subject.
3. Someone said that this will enable one to become an Asia-Pacific resource. I should look forward to something better, I am already an Asia resource and have no problem in finding a placement at premier lawfirms here. I don't need an upgraded degree to get placed, in India atleast.
4. You rightly said it doesn't matter a damn - but then what matters after getting placed is a good brandname (and what accompanies it in terms of the development one gets by attending), no?
5. I am not too sure of the NYU selection process, I believe the success rate is close to 50%. (Someone else also commented on this in this forum - "they take too many people for their own good")
6. Overall I think the student community will be of a higher level (forgive me if I am sounding too haute!) at places like CLS, Harvard, Yale.. I am sure there must be some recognition of this factor.

Would like to know what you think.. and also your logic for your choice. Best of luck!!

<blockquote>
Indiangirl: You said that you would not care about working in the US. From what I see, Singapore campus of NYU is targeting Asian market. If you want to stay in Asia and you are happy to work in India...why would you possibly like to spend additional 50 K for the Program at Columbia??? The only reasonable arguement that I can see ..NYC is a really nice place to be a student!!-)
</blockquote>

@Kira --- Nice to read your posts, to the point!

I decided to chuck NYU@NUS with 35K and opt for CLS, and also wait for results from the bigger names. What have you decided? (Since you said you have the same dilemma)

I had the following points to consider for the decision:

1. NYU-NUS class has (too) many fresh grads without any work exposure, I expect CLS (and Harvard) will have pretty few.
2.The classes at NUS will be very intensive - only 3 weeks duration for a visiting professor. Not sure if that will provide the same level of isights on the subject.
3. Someone said that this will enable one to become an Asia-Pacific resource. I should look forward to something better, I am already an Asia resource and have no problem in finding a placement at premier lawfirms here. I don't need an upgraded degree to get placed, in India atleast.
4. You rightly said it doesn't matter a damn - but then what matters after getting placed is a good brandname (and what accompanies it in terms of the development one gets by attending), no?
5. I am not too sure of the NYU selection process, I believe the success rate is close to 50%. (Someone else also commented on this in this forum - "they take too many people for their own good")
6. Overall I think the student community will be of a higher level (forgive me if I am sounding too haute!) at places like CLS, Harvard, Yale.. I am sure there must be some recognition of this factor.

Would like to know what you think.. and also your logic for your choice. Best of luck!!
quote
Jammin

IndianGirl, you made some very strong points and I have to totally agree with you.
IN addition, if you have time, try to have a look at website of major NYC Law firms (such as Skadden, Simpson Tatcher, Cleary Gottlieb, etc...) you will find many foreign lawyers having attended Columbia and/or Harvard LL.M. and none from NYU LL.M.
For me that is more than enough to make up my mind!

IndianGirl, you made some very strong points and I have to totally agree with you.
IN addition, if you have time, try to have a look at website of major NYC Law firms (such as Skadden, Simpson Tatcher, Cleary Gottlieb, etc...) you will find many foreign lawyers having attended Columbia and/or Harvard LL.M. and none from NYU LL.M.
For me that is more than enough to make up my mind!


quote
Inactive User

IndianGirl, you made some very strong points and I have to totally agree with you.
IN addition, if you have time, try to have a look at website of major NYC Law firms (such as Skadden, Simpson Tatcher, Cleary Gottlieb, etc...) you will find many foreign lawyers having attended Columbia and/or Harvard LL.M. and none from NYU LL.M.
For me that is more than enough to make up my mind!





I do not agree with you MikifromItaly, Watchell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz ranks FIRST in New York City Elite Law Firm Total Compensation
http://www.lawfirmdiscussion.com/compensation/newyork06tc.php

and there ARE foreign lawyers in this firm who graduated from NYU LLM.

<blockquote>IndianGirl, you made some very strong points and I have to totally agree with you.
IN addition, if you have time, try to have a look at website of major NYC Law firms (such as Skadden, Simpson Tatcher, Cleary Gottlieb, etc...) you will find many foreign lawyers having attended Columbia and/or Harvard LL.M. and none from NYU LL.M.
For me that is more than enough to make up my mind!


</blockquote>


I do not agree with you MikifromItaly, Watchell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz ranks FIRST in New York City Elite Law Firm Total Compensation
http://www.lawfirmdiscussion.com/compensation/newyork06tc.php

and there ARE foreign lawyers in this firm who graduated from NYU LLM.
quote
Jammin

Thanks lalocharlotte for your info.
I just had a look at WLRK website, I counted 5 foreign attorneys with a Columbia LL.M. (including 1 Italian) and just 3 with an NYU LL.M.
So my theory is confirmed, Columbia sells much better than NYU, even in a Law Firm such as WLRK were all four founding partners attended NYU...

Thanks lalocharlotte for your info.
I just had a look at WLRK website, I counted 5 foreign attorneys with a Columbia LL.M. (including 1 Italian) and just 3 with an NYU LL.M.
So my theory is confirmed, Columbia sells much better than NYU, even in a Law Firm such as WLRK were all four founding partners attended NYU...


quote
marungu

Most people outside of the US don't know what Ivy League really means, and to some, any top school in the US is ivy league, which goes to show you that 'Ivy league' is not very important outside of the US. Can you imagine, even my friend who did his LL.M. at HLS, thinks NYU is an Ivy League school.

When all is said, to me Ivy league is not the issue, but the schools ranking in a particular field. I'm in the ITP program at NYU, and I did not even apply to Yale, Columbia or Stanford, because I could not get a better tax education elsewhere than at NYU!

Most people outside of the US don't know what Ivy League really means, and to some, any top school in the US is ivy league, which goes to show you that 'Ivy league' is not very important outside of the US. Can you imagine, even my friend who did his LL.M. at HLS, thinks NYU is an Ivy League school.

When all is said, to me Ivy league is not the issue, but the schools ranking in a particular field. I'm in the ITP program at NYU, and I did not even apply to Yale, Columbia or Stanford, because I could not get a better tax education elsewhere than at NYU!
quote
Jammin

..

..
quote
lawadd08

(First of all I quite agree with you Miki..)

Dear Marungu,

I had started the issue of Columbia v/s. NYU just to know different perspectives. Never at any point did I mean to demean either of the schools. I believe both are fantastic in their own ways. Ive been admitted to Columbia and back in my country (India) atleast Columbia Law School is better recognised than NYU. I would assume some Law Firms/ Corporates while picking applicant from these schools may de facto have a soft corner for either, which may not be a conclusive test for rating them.

As regards the issue of Ivy leagues, its quite unfortunate that youre friend who managed to get into Harvard and study there did not quite know the difference. Honestly I have come to believe that it wouldnt make quite as much of a difference as opposed to individualistic merit in a job market whether you pass out from NYU or Columbia.

Besides Columbia is an Ivy league and NYU is not. To some people that may matter to some it may not. It would quite be a matter of subjectivity and relativity and its best to put it to rest.

(First of all I quite agree with you Miki..)

Dear Marungu,

I had started the issue of Columbia v/s. NYU just to know different perspectives. Never at any point did I mean to demean either of the schools. I believe both are fantastic in their own ways. I’ve been admitted to Columbia and back in my country (India) atleast Columbia Law School is better recognised than NYU. I would assume some Law Firms/ Corporates while picking applicant from these schools may de facto have a soft corner for either, which may not be a conclusive test for rating them.

As regards the issue of Ivy leagues, its quite unfortunate that you’re friend who managed to get into Harvard and study there did not quite know the difference. Honestly I have come to believe that it wouldn’t make quite as much of a difference as opposed to individualistic merit in a job market whether you pass out from NYU or Columbia.

Besides Columbia is an Ivy league and NYU is not. To some people that may matter to some it may not. It would quite be a matter of subjectivity and relativity and its best to put it to rest.
quote
Jammin


quote
lawadd08

thank you

thank you
quote
ivan2006

IndianGirl, you made some very strong points and I have to totally agree with you.
IN addition, if you have time, try to have a look at website of major NYC Law firms (such as Skadden, Simpson Tatcher, Cleary Gottlieb, etc...) you will find many foreign lawyers having attended Columbia and/or Harvard LL.M. and none from NYU LL.M.
For me that is more than enough to make up my mind!




errr, I think you are mistaken... I work for one of the firms you mention and I am in a position to say that this is not accurate. As a matter of fact, where I am we have the same amount of foreign lawyers from NYU than from CLS, and more NYU LLMs than HLS´s. Regarding the job search this year, I think foreign lawyers will have a hard time landing jobs here without regard of their school. But hey, I might be wrong...

<blockquote>IndianGirl, you made some very strong points and I have to totally agree with you.
IN addition, if you have time, try to have a look at website of major NYC Law firms (such as Skadden, Simpson Tatcher, Cleary Gottlieb, etc...) you will find many foreign lawyers having attended Columbia and/or Harvard LL.M. and none from NYU LL.M.
For me that is more than enough to make up my mind!


</blockquote>

errr, I think you are mistaken... I work for one of the firms you mention and I am in a position to say that this is not accurate. As a matter of fact, where I am we have the same amount of foreign lawyers from NYU than from CLS, and more NYU LLMs than HLS´s. Regarding the job search this year, I think foreign lawyers will have a hard time landing jobs here without regard of their school. But hey, I might be wrong...
quote
Jammin



quote
ivan2006

Just to be accurate: I checked the new arrivals book of my law firm and among the foreign-trained lawyers hired in 2007 we have 12 NYU LLMs, 9 Columbia LLMs and 2 Harvard LLMs. We also have LLMs from U.Chicago, Northwestern, Duke and U. Illinois. Perhaps what you say could be true in respect to the other firms you mention (I have not checked that), but in any case, I would not say there is an edge between the LLMs of one or two specific T5 schools in respect of the rest.
Regarding the job market: I have not heard anything official, but there are 3 reasons you should not expect an easy job hunting season: 1) The market cooled down. Banks (the main clients of NY firms) are laying people off. There's lots of talk about recession. Just compare the situation with last year's: last year Simpson raised entry-level salaries from 145K to 160K; now, nobody expects a raise. 2) Law firms are firing people. Historically, layoffs are taboo among top law firms. But this year Thacher Profitt, Clifford Chance and Cadwalader have already announced that they would fire lawyers due to the credit crunch. Nothing good can come out of this. 3) Law firms overhired last year. Last year's promotion was probably the biggest since the golden dot-com years, and nobody will hire more international lawyers in a time of crisis. If they hire someone, they will hire JDs, and only to save face and not drop in the rankings. However, Latin American and Chinese LLMs will still be needed (although it is likely that firms will not hire as many as this year). Europeans may have a chance in firms that have offices in their own countries.

Since you are a CLS student, you have probably realized that some firms cancelled their attendance to the job fair. This is not a good omen. Don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but the market is bearish, and LLMs graduating this year should be ready for that.

Good luck to everyone!

Just to be accurate: I checked the new arrivals book of my law firm and among the foreign-trained lawyers hired in 2007 we have 12 NYU LLMs, 9 Columbia LLMs and 2 Harvard LLMs. We also have LLMs from U.Chicago, Northwestern, Duke and U. Illinois. Perhaps what you say could be true in respect to the other firms you mention (I have not checked that), but in any case, I would not say there is an edge between the LLMs of one or two specific T5 schools in respect of the rest.
Regarding the job market: I have not heard anything official, but there are 3 reasons you should not expect an easy job hunting season: 1) The market cooled down. Banks (the main clients of NY firms) are laying people off. There's lots of talk about recession. Just compare the situation with last year's: last year Simpson raised entry-level salaries from 145K to 160K; now, nobody expects a raise. 2) Law firms are firing people. Historically, layoffs are taboo among top law firms. But this year Thacher Profitt, Clifford Chance and Cadwalader have already announced that they would fire lawyers due to the credit crunch. Nothing good can come out of this. 3) Law firms overhired last year. Last year's promotion was probably the biggest since the golden dot-com years, and nobody will hire more international lawyers in a time of crisis. If they hire someone, they will hire JDs, and only to save face and not drop in the rankings. However, Latin American and Chinese LLMs will still be needed (although it is likely that firms will not hire as many as this year). Europeans may have a chance in firms that have offices in their own countries.

Since you are a CLS student, you have probably realized that some firms cancelled their attendance to the job fair. This is not a good omen. Don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but the market is bearish, and LLMs graduating this year should be ready for that.

Good luck to everyone!
quote
kira008

Ivan, thanks for a very interesting info.

I have a question though. Since we were discussing here the value of the NYU@NUS degree as well, I wanted to ask you if you heard anything about reputation of this NYU initiative in the profesional circles. What is a probability for the European studying in Singapore to land a job in the US?

Thanks in advance!

Ivan, thanks for a very interesting info.

I have a question though. Since we were discussing here the value of the NYU@NUS degree as well, I wanted to ask you if you heard anything about reputation of this NYU initiative in the profesional circles. What is a probability for the European studying in Singapore to land a job in the US?

Thanks in advance!
quote
Jammin

quote
ranaash

I am in complete agreement with Ivan. I am a Lawyer based in New Delhi and associated with a senior advocate In Supreme Court of India. I had an opportunity to discuss with students currently studying in NYU, CLS and Georgetown w.r.t. job prospects and have been informed that due recession in US economy, jobs for foreign trained lawyer are scarce. On the contrary, for the NYU@NUS course I am informed that the prospects are much better for following reasons
(1) SIngapore being gateway to Asia and with tremendous foreign investments coming into Asia, the requirements of a lawyer trained in Asian and US laws is on the rise.
(2) After induction into a foreign law firm in US/UK, in all probabilty the selected candidates after a brief period in US/UK will be placed in Asia, in view of their better understanding of Asian laws/ home country laws.

Apart from that, costs for students who have been awarded grants for NYU@NUS course have certainly reduced making Singapore a good option. Though I agree in principle, that the faculty at NYU@NYC or CLS cannot be compared from that of NYU@NUS. However, in my view incurring a cost of 65K in CLS or NYU@NYC as against NYU@NUS with dim job prospects, is not a wise decision.

I am in complete agreement with Ivan. I am a Lawyer based in New Delhi and associated with a senior advocate In Supreme Court of India. I had an opportunity to discuss with students currently studying in NYU, CLS and Georgetown w.r.t. job prospects and have been informed that due recession in US economy, jobs for foreign trained lawyer are scarce. On the contrary, for the NYU@NUS course I am informed that the prospects are much better for following reasons
(1) SIngapore being gateway to Asia and with tremendous foreign investments coming into Asia, the requirements of a lawyer trained in Asian and US laws is on the rise.
(2) After induction into a foreign law firm in US/UK, in all probabilty the selected candidates after a brief period in US/UK will be placed in Asia, in view of their better understanding of Asian laws/ home country laws.

Apart from that, costs for students who have been awarded grants for NYU@NUS course have certainly reduced making Singapore a good option. Though I agree in principle, that the faculty at NYU@NYC or CLS cannot be compared from that of NYU@NUS. However, in my view incurring a cost of 65K in CLS or NYU@NYC as against NYU@NUS with dim job prospects, is not a wise decision.
quote

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