Columbia v/s NYU


ivan2006

Ivan, thanks for a very interesting info.

I have a question though. Since we were discussing here the value of the NYU@NUS degree as well, I wanted to ask you if you heard anything about reputation of this NYU initiative in the profesional circles. What is a probability for the European studying in Singapore to land a job in the US?

Thanks in advance!


I haven't heard anything about the value of the NYU@NUS degree in a professional context. I suppose you can "sell" it in a favorable manner, but I honestly do not know whether a potential employer in the U.S. would regard the joint degree as more valuable or not. Btw, what would be the U.S. visa status of the NYU@NUS students?

<blockquote>Ivan, thanks for a very interesting info.

I have a question though. Since we were discussing here the value of the NYU@NUS degree as well, I wanted to ask you if you heard anything about reputation of this NYU initiative in the profesional circles. What is a probability for the European studying in Singapore to land a job in the US?

Thanks in advance!</blockquote>

I haven't heard anything about the value of the NYU@NUS degree in a professional context. I suppose you can "sell" it in a favorable manner, but I honestly do not know whether a potential employer in the U.S. would regard the joint degree as more valuable or not. Btw, what would be the U.S. visa status of the NYU@NUS students?
quote
kira008

Ivan, as far as I understand, there is no visa at all. Since all classes are going to be held in Singapore, NYU is helping with the student residence card in Singapore and nothing in the US.
Is it a very important issue?

Thanks again!!

Ivan, as far as I understand, there is no visa at all. Since all classes are going to be held in Singapore, NYU is helping with the student residence card in Singapore and nothing in the US.
Is it a very important issue?

Thanks again!!
quote
ivan2006

Ivan, as far as I understand, there is no visa at all. Since all classes are going to be held in Singapore, NYU is helping with the student residence card in Singapore and nothing in the US.
Is it a very important issue?

Thanks again!!


Well, if you are not an F-1 visa holder entitled to work in the US under the Optional Practical Training (OPT), I would say your chances to land a job in the US immediately after the completion of the LLM are slim. This is a crucial issue if you want to work in the US after the completion of your degree.

<blockquote>Ivan, as far as I understand, there is no visa at all. Since all classes are going to be held in Singapore, NYU is helping with the student residence card in Singapore and nothing in the US.
Is it a very important issue?

Thanks again!!</blockquote>

Well, if you are not an F-1 visa holder entitled to work in the US under the Optional Practical Training (OPT), I would say your chances to land a job in the US immediately after the completion of the LLM are slim. This is a crucial issue if you want to work in the US after the completion of your degree.
quote
kira008

Thanks Ivan!

Sad to think that 90 % of that deal is all about papers...but I know from the personal experience how important that all is. Once I was intern at the UN in 2005, I made a very good contact with one of the partners of a relatively big US law firm...who told me..."job is yours..just give me your papers". Hmmm, this F-1 aspect is really something to think about.. I thought that after the US school LL.M, big internationals are willing to sponsor, but see that it is all very problematic...

Thanks again!

Thanks Ivan!

Sad to think that 90 % of that deal is all about papers...but I know from the personal experience how important that all is. Once I was intern at the UN in 2005, I made a very good contact with one of the partners of a relatively big US law firm...who told me..."job is yours..just give me your papers". Hmmm, this F-1 aspect is really something to think about.. I thought that after the US school LL.M, big internationals are willing to sponsor, but see that it is all very problematic...

Thanks again!
quote
Jammin

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quote
ivan2006

Thanks Ivan!

Sad to think that 90 % of that deal is all about papers...but I know from the personal experience how important that all is. Once I was intern at the UN in 2005, I made a very good contact with one of the partners of a relatively big US law firm...who told me..."job is yours..just give me your papers". Hmmm, this F-1 aspect is really something to think about.. I thought that after the US school LL.M, big internationals are willing to sponsor, but see that it is all very problematic...

Thanks again!


Kira, I think your recollections are right. The thing is: if you are on an F1 visa in the US, obtaining a 1-year work permit in the US (the so-called OPT) depends on the submission of a request to the US immigration authorities. They usually do not take long to grant it, and it authorizes you to start working immediately after the completion of the LLM and until July of that year. If you are not on an F1 visa, things are much more complicated: first, you have to find a firm that is willing to hire you; second, you will not be able to work for them immediately - they will have to request an H1B visa for you. The problem with the H1B visa is that there is a cap for the annual number of visas allowed. Since there are much more requests than visas available, there is a lottery to determine who can get a visa. Finally, in the event you get an H1B visa, it is not activated immediately - the activation date is usually some time in October. It is definitely a more complicated process, and a potential employer may prefer to hire an F1 visa holder who might be available to start working right away. Therefore, I guess you should take this into account in order to reach a decision. By the way, do the courses you take at NYU@NUS qualify for the purpose of the NY Bar Exam? I think this is an important factor as well.

Mikifromitaly, pursuing an LLM can be a very rewarding experience both from a personal and professional perspective. However, and to the extent it does require a significant investment in time and money, it is a very important decision. Since I arrived in the US, I have met people and heard stories of LLMs that came to NY in the years immediately after 9/11 (2002-4) whose plans to stay in the US after the completion of the LLM did not turn out well, due to the job market. In their case, their LLM experience was not as sweet as they expected it to be (although many of them got jobs in US firms back home and managed to come back to the US after a couple of years). My comments may sound pessimistic to you, but I am only trying to give some candid insight of the situation in the US right now (I do not understand why you say I am discouraging people to pursue LLMs anywhere in the world), since I studied, live and work in New York. I don't claim to be the holder of the universal truth - and you should read my advice (and any advice on internet) with a grain of salt. You seem to be an optimistic fella - good for you. But maybe you should inform yourself better, as it sounds awkward to read observations about the NY job market prospects of LLM grads and the hiring policies of NY law firms from someone who is presumably in Europe and presumably works for a UK law firm (not a US one). Having said that, I think we should not engage in further personal discussions in this forum, as they do not provide any useful information to the guys who read these posts.

<blockquote>Thanks Ivan!

Sad to think that 90 % of that deal is all about papers...but I know from the personal experience how important that all is. Once I was intern at the UN in 2005, I made a very good contact with one of the partners of a relatively big US law firm...who told me..."job is yours..just give me your papers". Hmmm, this F-1 aspect is really something to think about.. I thought that after the US school LL.M, big internationals are willing to sponsor, but see that it is all very problematic...

Thanks again!
</blockquote>

Kira, I think your recollections are right. The thing is: if you are on an F1 visa in the US, obtaining a 1-year work permit in the US (the so-called OPT) depends on the submission of a request to the US immigration authorities. They usually do not take long to grant it, and it authorizes you to start working immediately after the completion of the LLM and until July of that year. If you are not on an F1 visa, things are much more complicated: first, you have to find a firm that is willing to hire you; second, you will not be able to work for them immediately - they will have to request an H1B visa for you. The problem with the H1B visa is that there is a cap for the annual number of visas allowed. Since there are much more requests than visas available, there is a lottery to determine who can get a visa. Finally, in the event you get an H1B visa, it is not activated immediately - the activation date is usually some time in October. It is definitely a more complicated process, and a potential employer may prefer to hire an F1 visa holder who might be available to start working right away. Therefore, I guess you should take this into account in order to reach a decision. By the way, do the courses you take at NYU@NUS qualify for the purpose of the NY Bar Exam? I think this is an important factor as well.

Mikifromitaly, pursuing an LLM can be a very rewarding experience both from a personal and professional perspective. However, and to the extent it does require a significant investment in time and money, it is a very important decision. Since I arrived in the US, I have met people and heard stories of LLMs that came to NY in the years immediately after 9/11 (2002-4) whose plans to stay in the US after the completion of the LLM did not turn out well, due to the job market. In their case, their LLM experience was not as sweet as they expected it to be (although many of them got jobs in US firms back home and managed to come back to the US after a couple of years). My comments may sound pessimistic to you, but I am only trying to give some candid insight of the situation in the US right now (I do not understand why you say I am discouraging people to pursue LLMs anywhere in the world), since I studied, live and work in New York. I don't claim to be the holder of the universal truth - and you should read my advice (and any advice on internet) with a grain of salt. You seem to be an optimistic fella - good for you. But maybe you should inform yourself better, as it sounds awkward to read observations about the NY job market prospects of LLM grads and the hiring policies of NY law firms from someone who is presumably in Europe and presumably works for a UK law firm (not a US one). Having said that, I think we should not engage in further personal discussions in this forum, as they do not provide any useful information to the guys who read these posts.
quote
lafayette

Dear Miki,

I think you are giving a pretty hard time to Ivan. If you read carefully his previous posts, you will notice that he just tried to give us "real time" input on the legal market in NY, and that was really helpful for prospective students who had no acquaintances over there. It may seem pessimistic sometimes, but it is just how things actually happen.

Let's just keep in mind that securing a job, even with previous experience in a big US law firm or in a magic circle firm, will not be an easy task.

Good luck. See you

Dear Miki,

I think you are giving a pretty hard time to Ivan. If you read carefully his previous posts, you will notice that he just tried to give us "real time" input on the legal market in NY, and that was really helpful for prospective students who had no acquaintances over there. It may seem pessimistic sometimes, but it is just how things actually happen.

Let's just keep in mind that securing a job, even with previous experience in a big US law firm or in a magic circle firm, will not be an easy task.

Good luck. See you

quote
Jammin

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quote
calupict

Hi guys,
I would like to know in term of international investment law, which one is better between CLS and NYU.

CLS has the Vale Columbia Centre on Sustainable Investment while NYU don't have one. However I would like to know your guys opinion on it.

Thanks before.

Hi guys,
I would like to know in term of international investment law, which one is better between CLS and NYU.

CLS has the Vale Columbia Centre on Sustainable Investment while NYU don't have one. However I would like to know your guys opinion on it.

Thanks before.
quote

Hi guys,
I would like to know in term of international investment law, which one is better between CLS and NYU.

CLS has the Vale Columbia Centre on Sustainable Investment while NYU don't have one. However I would like to know your guys opinion on it.

Thanks before.


CLS has a course on this subject with a superb professor and is the first one in the ranking of international law!

<blockquote>Hi guys,
I would like to know in term of international investment law, which one is better between CLS and NYU.

CLS has the Vale Columbia Centre on Sustainable Investment while NYU don't have one. However I would like to know your guys opinion on it.

Thanks before.</blockquote>

CLS has a course on this subject with a superb professor and is the first one in the ranking of international law!
quote
Polar

Tax, International Law, Legal Philosophy: NYU
Business law and others: CLS

Tax, International Law, Legal Philosophy: NYU
Business law and others: CLS
quote
ILAW

As to international law:

1. NYU is no longer considered the best as Columbia stands 1st according to the last US News ranking:
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/international-law

2. Columbia allows its LLM students to intern at the United Nations Headquarters during the respective academic year and earn credits for that. NYU does NOT offer such an excellent opportunity.

3. In the area of International Criminal Law, which has gained tremendous momentum due to the establishment of the International Criminal Court, Columbia offers up to four courses-seminars. NYU does not even offer an introductory course. Also, considering the enormous importance of the above-mentioned area for other branches of international law such as international human rights law, NYU does not qualify as the best option in international-human rights law.

4. Needless to say that Columbia not only as a law school but also as a university ranks better than NYU. As to the latter, the difference is especially overwhelming: 11th vs 52nd according to the THE-World Ranking of Universities. If selectivity when admitting students to one or another LLM program is a criterion to be considered, those results are not a surprise at all.

As to international law:

1. NYU is no longer considered the best as Columbia stands 1st according to the last US News ranking:
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/international-law

2. Columbia allows its LLM students to intern at the United Nations Headquarters during the respective academic year and earn credits for that. NYU does NOT offer such an excellent opportunity.

3. In the area of International Criminal Law, which has gained tremendous momentum due to the establishment of the International Criminal Court, Columbia offers up to four courses-seminars. NYU does not even offer an introductory course. Also, considering the enormous importance of the above-mentioned area for other branches of international law such as international human rights law, NYU does not qualify as the best option in international-human rights law.

4. Needless to say that Columbia not only as a law school but also as a university ranks better than NYU. As to the latter, the difference is especially overwhelming: 11th vs 52nd according to the THE-World Ranking of Universities. If selectivity when admitting students to one or another LLM program is a criterion to be considered, those results are not a surprise at all.
quote
Chestnut

Hey, guys!
I'm interested in applying to Columbia and NYU. I know, that Columbia has, among their admission standards, a requirement of at least one year of professional experience. I've been volunteering in a Pro bono clinic for a couple of years, but I do not have a professional work record.

Is it worth trying? Or with NYU I have better chances to get in?

Thank you

Hey, guys!
I'm interested in applying to Columbia and NYU. I know, that Columbia has, among their admission standards, a requirement of at least one year of professional experience. I've been volunteering in a Pro bono clinic for a couple of years, but I do not have a professional work record.

Is it worth trying? Or with NYU I have better chances to get in?

Thank you
quote
MAB79

Just to be accurate: I checked the new arrivals book of my law firm and among the foreign-trained lawyers hired in 2007 we have 12 NYU LLMs, 9 Columbia LLMs and 2 Harvard LLMs. We also have LLMs from U.Chicago, Northwestern, Duke and U. Illinois. Perhaps what you say could be true in respect to the other firms you mention (I have not checked that), but in any case, I would not say there is an edge between the LLMs of one or two specific T5 schools in respect of the rest.
Regarding the job market: I have not heard anything official, but there are 3 reasons you should not expect an easy job hunting season: 1) The market cooled down. Banks (the main clients of NY firms) are laying people off. There's lots of talk about recession. Just compare the situation with last year's: last year Simpson raised entry-level salaries from 145K to 160K; now, nobody expects a raise. 2) Law firms are firing people. Historically, layoffs are taboo among top law firms. But this year Thacher Profitt, Clifford Chance and Cadwalader have already announced that they would fire lawyers due to the credit crunch. Nothing good can come out of this. 3) Law firms overhired last year. Last year's promotion was probably the biggest since the golden dot-com years, and nobody will hire more international lawyers in a time of crisis. If they hire someone, they will hire JDs, and only to save face and not drop in the rankings. However, Latin American and Chinese LLMs will still be needed (although it is likely that firms will not hire as many as this year). Europeans may have a chance in firms that have offices in their own countries.

Since you are a CLS student, you have probably realized that some firms cancelled their attendance to the job fair. This is not a good omen. Don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but the market is bearish, and LLMs graduating this year should be ready for that.

Good luck to everyone!


12 out of a class of 420 is way less than 9 of a class of 220, but I think it does not matter that much if you're a very good lawyer...

<blockquote>Just to be accurate: I checked the new arrivals book of my law firm and among the foreign-trained lawyers hired in 2007 we have 12 NYU LLMs, 9 Columbia LLMs and 2 Harvard LLMs. We also have LLMs from U.Chicago, Northwestern, Duke and U. Illinois. Perhaps what you say could be true in respect to the other firms you mention (I have not checked that), but in any case, I would not say there is an edge between the LLMs of one or two specific T5 schools in respect of the rest.
Regarding the job market: I have not heard anything official, but there are 3 reasons you should not expect an easy job hunting season: 1) The market cooled down. Banks (the main clients of NY firms) are laying people off. There's lots of talk about recession. Just compare the situation with last year's: last year Simpson raised entry-level salaries from 145K to 160K; now, nobody expects a raise. 2) Law firms are firing people. Historically, layoffs are taboo among top law firms. But this year Thacher Profitt, Clifford Chance and Cadwalader have already announced that they would fire lawyers due to the credit crunch. Nothing good can come out of this. 3) Law firms overhired last year. Last year's promotion was probably the biggest since the golden dot-com years, and nobody will hire more international lawyers in a time of crisis. If they hire someone, they will hire JDs, and only to save face and not drop in the rankings. However, Latin American and Chinese LLMs will still be needed (although it is likely that firms will not hire as many as this year). Europeans may have a chance in firms that have offices in their own countries.

Since you are a CLS student, you have probably realized that some firms cancelled their attendance to the job fair. This is not a good omen. Don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but the market is bearish, and LLMs graduating this year should be ready for that.

Good luck to everyone!
</blockquote>

12 out of a class of 420 is way less than 9 of a class of 220, but I think it does not matter that much if you're a very good lawyer...
quote

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