Dear Jorge, thanks for the information you provided from the inside of NYU (I suppose you are studying there at the moment). It will surely be very useful for me and for other applicants reading this thread in order to make a good decision.

I agree with some of the points you made and not with others. It would be interesting if you could develop further on what you mean by "disgusting", when refering to the faculty staff on legal philosophy and political theory of Columbia. Joseph Raz, George Fletcher, Kendall Thomas or A. Rapaczinsky are not disgusting to me at all, and I truly would prefer Raz or Rapaczinsky over Dworkin or Nagel. About the superiority of NYU in taxation I totally agree, aswell as I agree in the superiority of Columbia, specially in the Corporate area, among others, over NYU. In what respects to the International Law and Global Law areas, as I stated in the comment you first read, NYU is in my opinion far better than any other University in the US. So it is clear I did not assure as an "undeniable truth", that Columbia was better than NYU in every aspect, as you understood.

In what respects to the example you pointed out about the professor that refused an offer at Harvard and prefered to go to NYU, I am sure that other examples can be found in an opposite direction.

Finally, about the Ivy League argument, the only exception to the rule is precisely Brown, if you look at the other universities of the league, that nowadays keep on being top universities in the US (Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Penn, Cornell, Princeton and Dartmouth).

Thanks for your interest and help in this tough decision.

Hoping to meet you at New York to discuss polital theory issues and to party at Cielo with Roger Sanchez or Sandy Rivera.

Camilo Enciso

I did not study in NYU or Columbia, but both schools are great, in my view. I believe NYU in general loses in the LLM Program because it is easier to be admitted. NYU should be more selective for its own good. My impression is that even the ITP is selective just at some level.

However, I agree with you Jorge, in some areas of law, specially tax, NYU is better, and I would pick NYU. But if my interest was Corporate or Capital Markets, Columbia is better. Although, in my view, Columbia LLM is still, for most of the areas, a better choice.

Camilo and Miki, in my opinion you are totally wrong regarding the huge difference between NYU and Columbia. Unfortunately, Columbia is still far from Yale, Stanford or Harvard. The job search results and the Bar results for LLMs leave no question about it. You will see that not everybody in your class will find a job or pass the Bar...

Dear jorgeg and Gloss,

thank you very much for your opinions which were very useful but I'm gonna stick to my guns.

First of all I spoke with several Italian, American and English partners of the Law Firm I'm working for (UK Magic Circle Firm) and they all agree that in Corporate or Capital Markets Columbia, Harvard and Stanford are in a league of their own. You may not agree with them but, in the end, their opinion constitute "the market opinion" that you will face once the LL.M. is over.

As regards the issue of finding a job, please consider that the most important factor, besides the school you are attending, is your working experience.
A friend of mine went to Georgetown last year - which, as you know, is far way back if compared to Columbia, Harvard or Stanford - but, nonetheless, he got hired by one of the biggest NY Law Firm because he had previous working experience of 4 years in a top tier UK law firm.
Compared to other LL.M. students of Harvard or Stanford, in the opinion of the partners of this Law Firm' he was much more qualified.

Finally, I have to totally agree with Camilo, jorgeg, you must be working for NYU (or at least studying at NYU), your post is too detailed and specific to be fortuitous.

Ciao!

Miki

Wow!!! .... That was certainly a high pressure exchange!

One question about job prospects being dependant on work experience - what would you say would be a MINIMUM number of years of experience? 2, or 3, or more? Understood that the reputation of the firm is very important..

Does anyone have any idea about the big law firms taking LLMs as "Foreign Legal Consultant" for one year, paying upwards of $100K? (saw one bit about Steptoe and Johnson LLP of Washington taking people every year at this rate..)

Ciao indiangirl,

high pressure exchanges are a very useful exercise of dialectics.... ;-)

As to the minimum number of years of working experience, I really don't know..of course 3 to 5 years in a Top Law Firm is certainly important for all the reasons that you can imagine (working skills, team building, client relationships, etc...), In addition, another important factor is being already admitted to practice in your home country.

As to the "Foreign Legal Consultant" I know for a fact that many US and International Firms have this kind of position, if you check on their website they are listed as "visiting associates", "foreign associates", "international Lawyer", etc...
For instance, many US firms with offices in Italy offer this position to Italian LL.M. and after 1/2 years in the U.S. they relocate them in their Italian offices.
Try to have a look on the website of the top NYC firms you will easily find the answer.

M.

Camillo,
I am sure that you can find Professors coming and leaving Columbia and NYU, but we are talking about Waldron and Issacharof.

Jorgeg and Camilo,
According to USNews, Brown Univ is ranked 14th (for undergrads). Is that so bad?

Miki:
I fully agree with your last e-mail (specially the schools you said, because I work in the same area as you). Including the job searching part. However, my comment is that, although this student from Georgetown found a good position, and this happens in other not so well ranked schools as well, the level of effort necessary is higher as you go to a worst ranked school. In my case, I did my LLM already and I am working as a permanent associate, so I am fortunate enough not to be subject to the Magic Circle guys you are talking about... hehehe..
Chiao!

Gloss: you are absolutely right!
The better the Law School is ranked the easier is finding a job, and if it is supported by a strong working experience is even easier...

As to the Magic Circle, it's just a definition used to classify the 4 major UK Law Firms (Allen & Overy, Clifford Chance, Freshfields and Linklaters) ;-)

Ciao!

I know the concept, such as "White Shoe"... I was just kidding... I need to practice my Italian, however, this I dont know... ;-) Good luck in your LLM/US life experience Miki! I am sure you will be great! Ciao regazza!

SC,
14th in the U.S. ranking is not so bad. But I would prefer to study at NYU rather than Brown, even Brown being member of the Ivy League. Just to remember, NYU is 4th and Columbia 5th in the same ranking. My point is, Ivy League doesn´t mean anything, unless you are interested in participating in sports competitions. Brown is better than Columbia in this aspect.

Regarding to Camilo´s last post. I do not believe that you are talking seriously when you say that you prefer to have classes with those Columbia Professors rather than Dworkin or Nagel. As I said, Raz is the only star in Columbia. No matter what you say about them, it will be necessary to wait at least a decade to recognize them as a great political philosophers as Unger (Harvard), Posner (Chicago) and Coleman (Yale). Columbia is far away from the leading schools in the U.S. in this area and if this is really your major, you shouldn´t even take Columbia as an option. It is not hard to imagine why Raz is at NYU every thursday to participate in the Legal, Political and Moral Philosophy Colloquium. For last, if your are not interested in attending classes with the most well-known legal philosopher in the present, I think you should consider having classes with Waldron rather anyone in Columbia, if you really want to take political theory seriously.

Last thing: Yes, Columbia is better in Corporate. That´s all you can say about it.

PS: Yes, I am giving inside information. I think that they are more reliable than just superficial information based in the idea of "Ivy League". This is the purpose of this forum: giving information, not just personal preferences. When you start your studies at NYC, you are going to see that the Columbia´s superiority is nothing more than personal prejudice. Depending in the area, NYU should be your first option. (Legal theory, International, Anti-trust and Taxation are among them)

Ok Jorge, Thanks for the info and the strong points you made. I will use them to make a better pick.

Camilo

Camilo: no matter the points made by Jorge, since you wish to work in the US after the LL.M. the best to do is (if you have the opportunity) to speak to partners of US firms and share their views; you might end up with a much clearer idea and the decision will be much easier.
As far as I'm concerned it worked.

Regards

Miki

Hi Jorgeg,
Thanks for your clarification. But actually, in the ranking I was talking about, Columbia is 9th and NYU is 34th. http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php
My point is that Brown's overall reputation in the US is even better than NYU. Some people here do not realize this fact because they only focus on law school rakings, and unfortunately, Brown (as well as Princeton and Dartmouth), does not have law school.
It is true that some non-Ivy schools (like Stanford and MIT) are now ranked higher than most Ivy schools (including Columbia, my Alma Mater), but I think Ivy League does mean something even if we are not interested in participating in sports competitions.

Hi everyone. THis has been a most enriching discussion to me. After revising some information I have come to the conclusion that Jorge is right about the progress of NYU in the legal philosophy field. Its faculty is each time stronger in this area.

On the other hand, I found a site that I am sure will be of use to many of you, no matter the field of law in which you want to develop your studies: http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/default.asp

Miki, thanks for your comments.

SC, I also agree about the importance of IL as I said before.

Dear MC and Miki,

You maybe right about overall reputation. I do not even know what it is happening at the NYU Dental School or at the geology department. I am not comparing NYU to MIT (MIT is really good on its field). But I am talking about Law Schools. Maybe Charles Barkley and Shaquille O´Neil studied at Brown University. Maybe even Pete Sampras is part of their Tennis Staff. I do not care about sports competitions. Princeton has a very good reputation, but they do not have a Law School too, so what? Maybe Brown University is not so bad. But I care about Law. NYU is in the 4th place in Law and you cannot deny it. The point is that NYU is the leading U.S. University in three main areas - Taxation, International Law and Legal theory. However, you insist in trying to make an argument against NYU. What is your point? Are you angry about it?

Moreover, the only subject that you can really say that Columbia is better than NYU is Corporate. Why do not you make an effort to defend the strengths of Columbia law school on other fields? Maybe the reason is that you do not have an argument. I wanted to attend Dworkin´s class (legal philosophy is my major) and that is why I chose NYU. Evereyone has a reason and you can not generalize it. I do not know what is your interest, but you should be impartial. Have you ever being at Vanderbilt or Furman Hall? Have you ever being at Dworkin´s Colloquium? Have you ever looked at NYU staff? Is your major international law, taxation, anti-trust or legal theory?

What I think is that Columbia is not so good anymore. However, everyone who studied there wants to say that it still better than NYU just to keep the brand name. For me, this is fear to assume the truth: time has changed and Columbia is getting far away from Harvard, Yale and Stanford regarding Law. If you received an offer from these three schools, you should not even lose your time reading this forum. They are really more prestigious! But if it is not your case, you should have things clear in your mind: Columbia LL.M. is not as good as Harvard. It is similar or worst to the NYU Program. NYU and Columbia all have great programs, they are probably better than the universities of your native country and they are as good as Chicago, but they are not New Heaven or Massachusetts.

Concerning job market, why dont you check about how many NYU alumni are working at UN compared to Columbia students? Why don´t you check how many legal philosophy students completed their JSD at Columbia in the last few years? Why don´t you compare the number of ITP alumni who received a job offer to the percentage of Columbia LL.M. students? I do not know where you are taking the data that the job market is really better to Columbia students. Maybe you are talking with corporate lawyers. Yes, in this filed you should not hesitate to accept Columbia offer rather than NYU. But I hate corporate law and I do not think that corporate law is the only important area in the legal scheme. You should not restrict your analysis to your field. Open your head, the world is not just corporate. Maybe people are interested in the academic sphere, which is my case, maybe they want to have classes with the best professors in their field, or maybe they want to work in international bodies (like UN).

So, please, stop saying that you are better because you received a Columbia degree and open your eyes. NYU is getting better and Columbia is getting worst in the Law scenario. This is a fact! NYU has a more qualified body at this moment. Do not come with irrelevant rankings, but with arguments. Keep your attention on the discussion concerning Law.

("Ivy League" seems like a moral or religious truth to people like MC. When there is no argument, just say "Ivy League" as an answer. This is really out of fashion in a post-modern society like ours. Convince me that Columbia is better with arguments.)

Hi Jorgeg,
Let me clarify something.
Even though I went to CLS, I have never said CLS's LLM program is better than NYU law school's. I know I am not qualified to give any such opinion.
I am not sticking with the brand name "Ivy Leauge" either. If I got an offer from Stanford, I would have turned down Columbia's for sure. I talked about Brown's reputaion just because I think your (and Camilo's) statements above are somewhat unfair.
First time you mentioned Brown, you said (or implied) it is not a very good school (and Camilo agrees with you). When I told you Brown does not have a law school, and its overall ranking is better than NYU (14th and 34th), you said you were talking only about law schools and did not give a damn to other fields. Why did you mention Brown (which you know does not have a law school) in such a disrecpect way at the first time then? Any good logic for this?
I like your opinions on the qualities of professors at Columbia and NYU, because they are based on facts and are constructive. But what you said about Brown was quite unfair and irresponsible.

Hey Jorgeg, don't get so angry, we are just exchanging some thoughts which may help us to make the right decision for the LLM (as a matter of fact I still have to get some responses some I haven't made my decision yet).

Anyway, you made some very interesting points, thank you!

As far as I'm concerned, I am a Corporate Lawyer (or better a Capital Markets Lawyer) and I've been practicing for five years and I really like it, so my point is: in my field of interest Columbia IS WAY BETTER than NYU, this I know for a fact.

As to Harvard and Stanford they might be overall better than Columbia, but in Securities Law and other Financial related matters I am not really sure.

Finally, you might not be interested in practicing law as a lawyer but we do, so you have to understand that we shall also take into consideration the market reputation of a certain Law School which does not always goes along with its academic reputation. And, Columbia has a better reputation than NYU among Corporate Law Firms.

So, in the end, I don't care for Ivy League or for rankings I just want what sells better in the legal market, and believe me, Columbia is a top seller (as Harvard or Stanford)!

Cheers!
M.

oh my God.....the discussion has become so hot......guys plz dont write articles.......just few words are enough.........lol.......I love NYU because their whole structure is efficient.........however I regret to say that I couldnt like Columbia because their website seemed unfriendly.........and as saying do not apply.....I am serious.....we can just evaluate through websites and stuff in the first place and then by other means.......I think this is all..

This thread is really interesting, a battle between Morningside Heights and Greenwich Village. I'm really impressed with the research you guys have done to these two schools! I don't think neither one is better than the other.
Talking about prestige in my country (east asia), people in the law field would admire both schools, but for non-law people, no school, even Yale would come close to the prestige that Harvard has. Columbia would be more famous because a pop-star in my country went there (undergrad), but that's like the only reason.
Job availabilities in the States won't be much different too. For LLMs, I think past job experiences and the connections you have in your home country really counts. Besides, I think top law firms appreciate diversities too. I've worked with people from top firms like S&C and Sherman, but they're not all ivies, but superb lawyers and admirable people.
Personally, though not admitted to neither one, I'd go for Columbia, because I think everyone in my field (securities) have read books by John Coffee (also Hal Scott from Harvard and James Cox from Duke).

Regarding my first sentence, Greenwich Village wins, because it's a lot better place to hang around.