LLM Discussions

Chicago, Upenn or NYU




Yes, I guess looking at the rankings is important, but when making a decision, one has to go beyond them.. And let's face it, any of the T14 or so universities will be great. What may at first seem an obvious choice (picking a better ranked univerisity) may not be the best for one's particular interests and objectives...


I know is not right but I'm a little obssesed with rankings. However, if you think about it, they change all the time, so maybe next year Chicago is not better ranked than NYU. In the 2018 ranking Chicago is better ranked than Columbia, Berkerley dropped to the 12th and Georgetown is no longer T14. Also, different rankings say different things about the same universities.

I think that at some point the decision needs to be based in other things like the program, the City, the culture of the university. I agree that all the universities mentioned in this post are great and the experience in all of them is also going to be great.

I used to think NYU was the better option, I really like the Intl. Business Regulation program but the fact that it is a huge program is changing my mind and I'm leaning towards Chicago, a smaller program more personalized. Either way, I'm not a 100% sure.

Just in case, the 2018 US news ranking is out, the link: https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings



If you are obsessed with rankings, then I can encourage you to go to NYU! Since it is the 6th in the world in QS Top Universities Ranking of 2017, and it used to be the 5th in a tie with Stanford last year.

https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/university-subject-rankings/2017/law-legal-studies

Also there are two huge misconceptions here:
1) How can you assess how much prestigious a law school is globally while taking into account national rankings? Why dont you take into account the global rankings especially made to reveal this?
2) an IVY league school is prestigious, however, Chicago, NYU, Northwestern, Berkeley and other Law schools might be more prestigious and better.

Furthermore, you need to ask yourself why is NYU currently the 6th in the Qs World Rankings, while Columbia and Chicago are the 9th and 10th respectively? I can answer this question for you, it is because of the quality of academia in NYU Law: world-renowned professors, too many citations per paper, outstanding location which makes it more present into the legal center of the world on one hand, and allows every passing-by renowned practitioner to give a lecture on the other, and lastly, NYU is known to be one step ahead of other top Law schools in covering the world's most up-to-date compelling legal issues.

So why would you want to choose Chicago or UPenn instead? I can answer that too, because you feel it is gonna be more "exclusive" there. I am not even sure about this, since NYU receives a huge number of applications per year (2800+) and only admits 440. While Chicago receives 900 and admits around 150? Also, you would be wrong if you thought for a second that each of these 440 accepted by NYU is not super highly regarded in their countries. I would say only the best of the best get into the top 10 law schools in US, and since only Harvard, Yale, Stanford are the only three US law schools ahead of NYU in QS world rankings, then I think you should choose NYU if you didn't get into them (deciding by ranking excluding all other factors).

[Edited by The will of fire on Mar 21, 2017]

[quote][quote][quote][quote][quote][quote][quote]I was also admitted to UPenn and NYU. At this stage, I am not considering NYU for the reasons below:

1. I am not sure whether NYU is more "famous" worldwide than UPenn because it has a better program (which I don't think so), because more people graduate and therefore there is more people around with an NYU degree, or just because it is located in NYC. Since I don’t think NYU is more “famous” because it has a better program, I don’t see any reason that would turn my thoughts to NYU rather than UPenn.

2. The point that UPenn has a smaller program is more attractive as well. At least in my country (Brazil), you will find many NYU alumni, and not that much of UPenn's LLMs. Being part of a more selective group seems also to be a better choice. I heard that UPenn admits around 450 LLMs per year, and UPenn around 115 (all my friends were admitted to NYU, but only some of them to UPenn).
Also for this reason I think that it’s more difficult for UPenn’s LLMs to be bound to their native friends and therefore to speak their own language -- I think everyone who apply for an LLM degree is also willing to improve their English!

3. Considering that Columbia is the main university in NYC, I am not sure whether I would be comfortable in attending the second power in the city. I have the same impression with Northwestern (which also granted me an admission). I am sure that both Northwestern and NYU have wonderful programs, but how about attending the 2nd player in the city?

4. I'm willing to get the WBLC from Wharton, which costs extra ~USD 14k. Having said that, I’m sure that living in NYC would get me to spend these USD 14k in beer due to the higher costs of living in NYC. It might be more efficient to pay these 14k to get a certificate from Wharton - and probably spend another 14k in beer in Philadelphia, but that’s another department :)

5. I'm absolutely convinced that attending NYU has no relation whatsoever with you finding a job afterwards. First because the law firm you work at has maybe 95% of higher chances to get you in an US firm than you by yourself. Second because the jobfair is something proforma and doesn't actually helps you that much (all the spots are fulfiled before the jobfair), and lastly because Philadelphia is 1,5h ride from NYC. You won't be prevented from finding a job if you attend UPenn. And for the reasons of this post maybe you would find a job more easily!

6. Many people dream about living in NYC. I am sure it’s awesome. But at least in my case, I will be working on the year after the LLM in NYC. So I’m not that anxious to attend an university in NYC because I will live there during the second year.

7. UPenn in an Ivy and NYU is not. I think that nowadays being an Ivy has more “charm” than any other thing, but I am also sure that US firms do think that Ivies are more “relevant”, and I’d rather also to go to an Ivy.

8. Lastly, I wish I don't get an admission email from Columbia. JK. If I am approved at Columbia I would panic. I think there is no way of denying an admission from Columbia, but one has to have in mind that one variable of the formula (location x costs x program x prestige) is COST. And Columbia is the most expensive program in the most expensive city. Maybe that would prevent me from attending Columbia - that question would be a good brainstorm if I’m accepted at Columbia.

Hope that helps.[/quote]

I tend to agree with you in every aspect. I think Penn is a more exclusive and elite school. I'd say my country is flooded with NYU alumni, while there are not so many of Ivy schools. I would not care to pick NYU over Columbia or Northwestern over Chicago either.

It depends on your area and what you are looking for. While some Law Schools are known for preparing its grads for the public sector (Yale) or at least a variety of jobs (Harvard), others are focused on forging great private sector attorneys, such as Columbia, Penn and Northwestern.

If you're looking forward to getting a job at a big law firm after your LLM, you should consider, for example, that both Penn and Northwestern are better ranked than NYU in almost every biglaw employment ranking:

1) Columbia Law School
2) University of Pennsylvania Law School
3) University of Chicago Law School
4) Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law
5) Duke Law School
6) New York University School of Law
7) Cornell Law School
8) University of Virginia School of Law
9) Stanford Law School
10) University of California, Berkeley School of Law

Source:
http://abovethelaw.com/2016/03/the-best-law-schools-for-getting-a-biglaw-job-2016/[/quote]

I would also certainly pick Penn over NYU. However, I disagree with the theory of the "second university in town/area". I have friends that chose Northwestern over Chicago, NYU over Columbia and even one friend who picked Bekeley over Stanford for various reasons...[/quote] What kind of reasons??[/quote]

Well, many reasons, but mainly due to the fact that some programs are just better at NYU, Northwestern and Bekeley like:

NYU Tax Law > Columbia
Northwestern Tax Law > Chicago
Northwestern Dispute Resolution > Chicago
NYU International Law > Columbia, Harvard and all others...
Northwestern Environmental > Chicago

Location within the cities is also an advantage for Northwestern (especially) and NYU.


[/quote]

Yes, I guess looking at the rankings is important, but when making a decision, one has to go beyond them.. And let's face it, any of the T14 or so universities will be great. What may at first seem an obvious choice (picking a better ranked univerisity) may not be the best for one's particular interests and objectives...[/quote]

I know is not right but I'm a little obssesed with rankings. However, if you think about it, they change all the time, so maybe next year Chicago is not better ranked than NYU. In the 2018 ranking Chicago is better ranked than Columbia, Berkerley dropped to the 12th and Georgetown is no longer T14. Also, different rankings say different things about the same universities.

I think that at some point the decision needs to be based in other things like the program, the City, the culture of the university. I agree that all the universities mentioned in this post are great and the experience in all of them is also going to be great.

I used to think NYU was the better option, I really like the Intl. Business Regulation program but the fact that it is a huge program is changing my mind and I'm leaning towards Chicago, a smaller program more personalized. Either way, I'm not a 100% sure.

Just in case, the 2018 US news ranking is out, the link: https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

[/quote]

If you are obsessed with rankings, then I can encourage you to go to NYU! Since it is the 6th in the world in QS Top Universities Ranking of 2017, and it used to be the 5th in a tie with Stanford last year.

https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/university-subject-rankings/2017/law-legal-studies

Also there are two huge misconceptions here:
1) How can you assess how much prestigious a law school is globally while taking into account national rankings? Why dont you take into account the global rankings especially made to reveal this?
2) an IVY league school is prestigious, however, Chicago, NYU, Northwestern, Berkeley and other Law schools might be more prestigious and better.

Furthermore, you need to ask yourself why is NYU currently the 6th in the Qs World Rankings, while Columbia and Chicago are the 9th and 10th respectively? I can answer this question for you, it is because of the quality of academia in NYU Law: world-renowned professors, too many citations per paper, outstanding location which makes it more present into the legal center of the world on one hand, and allows every passing-by renowned practitioner to give a lecture on the other, and lastly, NYU is known to be one step ahead of other top Law schools in covering the world's most up-to-date compelling legal issues.

So why would you want to choose Chicago or UPenn instead? I can answer that too, because you feel it is gonna be more "exclusive" there. I am not even sure about this, since NYU receives a huge number of applications per year (2800+) and only admits 440. While Chicago receives 900 and admits around 150? Also, you would be wrong if you thought for a second that each of these 440 accepted by NYU is not super highly regarded in their countries. I would say only the best of the best get into the top 10 law schools in US, and since only Harvard, Yale, Stanford are the only three US law schools ahead of NYU in QS world rankings, then I think you should choose NYU if you didn't get into them (deciding by ranking excluding all other factors).



quote
You may be right about some things, but absolutely wrong about others, like NYU being equally or even more exclusive than Penn or Chicago or basing your whole criteria in the QS ranking. As much sense the first 10 of the ranking might make to you, if you look at ones ranked from 11-20 you can easlily realize why that ranking is not helpful at all.
You may be right about some things, but absolutely wrong about others, like NYU being equally or even more exclusive than Penn or Chicago or basing your whole criteria in the QS ranking. As much sense the first 10 of the ranking might make to you, if you look at ones ranked from 11-20 you can easlily realize why that ranking is not helpful at all.
quote
You may be right about some things, but absolutely wrong about others, like NYU being equally or even more exclusive than Penn or Chicago or basing your whole criteria in the QS ranking. As much sense the first 10 of the ranking might make to you, if you look at ones ranked from 11-20 you can easlily realize why that ranking is not helpful at all.


It is not only the QS rankings, it is by statistics NYU Law is where most of the partners at BigLaw in Europe obtained their LLMs.

But on a very important note, prestige is not totally correlated with exclusivity. Michigan is more exclusive than Harvard, but you can't say that it is more prestigious. However, academic excellence is way more correlated with prestige: the quality of the staff at the Law school. It might seem a little bit shockingly to you, I think that Columbia and NYU should be placed higher than Harvard and Yale for what they offer being in the heart of NY (the most legally vibrant place in the world). And employment statistics agree with me.

He can never go wrong with any of the three. He reached the top of the top 14. He should pick the most compatible, not necessarily the most exclusive.
[quote]You may be right about some things, but absolutely wrong about others, like NYU being equally or even more exclusive than Penn or Chicago or basing your whole criteria in the QS ranking. As much sense the first 10 of the ranking might make to you, if you look at ones ranked from 11-20 you can easlily realize why that ranking is not helpful at all.[/quote]

It is not only the QS rankings, it is by statistics NYU Law is where most of the partners at BigLaw in Europe obtained their LLMs.

But on a very important note, prestige is not totally correlated with exclusivity. Michigan is more exclusive than Harvard, but you can't say that it is more prestigious. However, academic excellence is way more correlated with prestige: the quality of the staff at the Law school. It might seem a little bit shockingly to you, I think that Columbia and NYU should be placed higher than Harvard and Yale for what they offer being in the heart of NY (the most legally vibrant place in the world). And employment statistics agree with me.

He can never go wrong with any of the three. He reached the top of the top 14. He should pick the most compatible, not necessarily the most exclusive.
quote
You may be right about some things, but absolutely wrong about others, like NYU being equally or even more exclusive than Penn or Chicago or basing your whole criteria in the QS ranking. As much sense the first 10 of the ranking might make to you, if you look at ones ranked from 11-20 you can easlily realize why that ranking is not helpful at all.


It is not only the QS rankings, it is by statistics NYU Law is where most of the partners at BigLaw in Europe obtained their LLMs.

But on a very important note, prestige is not totally correlated with exclusivity. Michigan is more exclusive than Harvard, but you can't say that it is more prestigious. However, academic excellence is way more correlated with prestige: the quality of the staff at the Law school. It might seem a little bit shockingly to you, I think that Columbia and NYU should be placed higher than Harvard and Yale for what they offer being in the heart of NY (the most legally vibrant place in the world). And employment statistics agree with me.

He can never go wrong with any of the three. He reached the top of the top 14. He should pick the most compatible, not necessarily the most exclusive.


Yes, you can't go wrong with either of the three. And yes, exclusivity does not necessarily mean prestige. But with respect to the statistics about NYU partners, that's easy when you accept 450 applicants instead of the 120, 70 or even 20 that other top ten law schools accept. It is not a good argument (like the QS ranking). Finally, about employment stats, if you are not American, those do not apply to you, and even if they did, I recommend you to look at the Business Insider Ranking which is the ranking that analyses school from that perspective. There Penn is No. 1 and Yale I think is barely No. 10
[quote][quote]You may be right about some things, but absolutely wrong about others, like NYU being equally or even more exclusive than Penn or Chicago or basing your whole criteria in the QS ranking. As much sense the first 10 of the ranking might make to you, if you look at ones ranked from 11-20 you can easlily realize why that ranking is not helpful at all.[/quote]

It is not only the QS rankings, it is by statistics NYU Law is where most of the partners at BigLaw in Europe obtained their LLMs.

But on a very important note, prestige is not totally correlated with exclusivity. Michigan is more exclusive than Harvard, but you can't say that it is more prestigious. However, academic excellence is way more correlated with prestige: the quality of the staff at the Law school. It might seem a little bit shockingly to you, I think that Columbia and NYU should be placed higher than Harvard and Yale for what they offer being in the heart of NY (the most legally vibrant place in the world). And employment statistics agree with me.

He can never go wrong with any of the three. He reached the top of the top 14. He should pick the most compatible, not necessarily the most exclusive. [/quote]

Yes, you can't go wrong with either of the three. And yes, exclusivity does not necessarily mean prestige. But with respect to the statistics about NYU partners, that's easy when you accept 450 applicants instead of the 120, 70 or even 20 that other top ten law schools accept. It is not a good argument (like the QS ranking). Finally, about employment stats, if you are not American, those do not apply to you, and even if they did, I recommend you to look at the Business Insider Ranking which is the ranking that analyses school from that perspective. There Penn is No. 1 and Yale I think is barely No. 10
quote
You may be right about some things, but absolutely wrong about others, like NYU being equally or even more exclusive than Penn or Chicago or basing your whole criteria in the QS ranking. As much sense the first 10 of the ranking might make to you, if you look at ones ranked from 11-20 you can easlily realize why that ranking is not helpful at all.


It is not only the QS rankings, it is by statistics NYU Law is where most of the partners at BigLaw in Europe obtained their LLMs.

But on a very important note, prestige is not totally correlated with exclusivity. Michigan is more exclusive than Harvard, but you can't say that it is more prestigious. However, academic excellence is way more correlated with prestige: the quality of the staff at the Law school. It might seem a little bit shockingly to you, I think that Columbia and NYU should be placed higher than Harvard and Yale for what they offer being in the heart of NY (the most legally vibrant place in the world). And employment statistics agree with me.

He can never go wrong with any of the three. He reached the top of the top 14. He should pick the most compatible, not necessarily the most exclusive.


Yes, you can't go wrong with either of the three. And yes, exclusivity does not necessarily mean prestige. But with respect to the statistics about NYU partners, that's easy when you accept 450 applicants instead of the 120, 70 or even 20 that other top ten law schools accept. It is not a good argument (like the QS ranking). Finally, about employment stats, if you are not American, those do not apply to you, and even if they did, I recommend you to look at the Business Insider Ranking which is the ranking that analyses school from that perspective. There Penn is No. 1 and Yale I think is barely No. 10


Since we agree on the first two sentences, then there is no argument here. But I will reply to your points. Again you imply that it admits a large number and forget about the fact that it has the largest applicants pool. Yes it admits 440 and yet they are still the creme de la creme (that's why they make partners, and yes they are many) but why don't you realize that most of these partners had an equal acceptance from a top-tier law school and they chose NYU instead? (This might be a very likely scenario).
Anyhow, we are very lucky to go to any of these schools again, its like we are arguing between Coke and Pepsi.

Lastly, it is very nice to meet you and I wish you all the best! :)

[Edited by The will of fire on Mar 27, 2017]

[quote][quote][quote]You may be right about some things, but absolutely wrong about others, like NYU being equally or even more exclusive than Penn or Chicago or basing your whole criteria in the QS ranking. As much sense the first 10 of the ranking might make to you, if you look at ones ranked from 11-20 you can easlily realize why that ranking is not helpful at all.[/quote]

It is not only the QS rankings, it is by statistics NYU Law is where most of the partners at BigLaw in Europe obtained their LLMs.

But on a very important note, prestige is not totally correlated with exclusivity. Michigan is more exclusive than Harvard, but you can't say that it is more prestigious. However, academic excellence is way more correlated with prestige: the quality of the staff at the Law school. It might seem a little bit shockingly to you, I think that Columbia and NYU should be placed higher than Harvard and Yale for what they offer being in the heart of NY (the most legally vibrant place in the world). And employment statistics agree with me.

He can never go wrong with any of the three. He reached the top of the top 14. He should pick the most compatible, not necessarily the most exclusive. [/quote]

Yes, you can't go wrong with either of the three. And yes, exclusivity does not necessarily mean prestige. But with respect to the statistics about NYU partners, that's easy when you accept 450 applicants instead of the 120, 70 or even 20 that other top ten law schools accept. It is not a good argument (like the QS ranking). Finally, about employment stats, if you are not American, those do not apply to you, and even if they did, I recommend you to look at the Business Insider Ranking which is the ranking that analyses school from that perspective. There Penn is No. 1 and Yale I think is barely No. 10[/quote]

Since we agree on the first two sentences, then there is no argument here. But I will reply to your points. Again you imply that it admits a large number and forget about the fact that it has the largest applicants pool. Yes it admits 440 and yet they are still the creme de la creme (that's why they make partners, and yes they are many) but why don't you realize that most of these partners had an equal acceptance from a top-tier law school and they chose NYU instead? (This might be a very likely scenario).
Anyhow, we are very lucky to go to any of these schools again, its like we are arguing between Coke and Pepsi.

Lastly, it is very nice to meet you and I wish you all the best! :)
quote
RV2017
You may be right about some things, but absolutely wrong about others, like NYU being equally or even more exclusive than Penn or Chicago or basing your whole criteria in the QS ranking. As much sense the first 10 of the ranking might make to you, if you look at ones ranked from 11-20 you can easlily realize why that ranking is not helpful at all.


It is not only the QS rankings, it is by statistics NYU Law is where most of the partners at BigLaw in Europe obtained their LLMs.

But on a very important note, prestige is not totally correlated with exclusivity. Michigan is more exclusive than Harvard, but you can't say that it is more prestigious. However, academic excellence is way more correlated with prestige: the quality of the staff at the Law school. It might seem a little bit shockingly to you, I think that Columbia and NYU should be placed higher than Harvard and Yale for what they offer being in the heart of NY (the most legally vibrant place in the world). And employment statistics agree with me.

He can never go wrong with any of the three. He reached the top of the top 14. He should pick the most compatible, not necessarily the most exclusive.


Yes, you can't go wrong with either of the three. And yes, exclusivity does not necessarily mean prestige. But with respect to the statistics about NYU partners, that's easy when you accept 450 applicants instead of the 120, 70 or even 20 that other top ten law schools accept. It is not a good argument (like the QS ranking). Finally, about employment stats, if you are not American, those do not apply to you, and even if they did, I recommend you to look at the Business Insider Ranking which is the ranking that analyses school from that perspective. There Penn is No. 1 and Yale I think is barely No. 10


Just for the sake of argument:

The Business Insider Ranking quoted analyzes the job placement after J.D. Hardly a parameter for LLM students. In fact, which university issued your LLM diploma is, probably, one of the last things looked by possible employers.
It is very important for any foreign lawyer considering to secure a job position after its LLM to understand this: To every law firm, big or small, even after passing NY/CA Bar, we are "legally" handicapped. In this sense, what can award you a job position is networking (both in your home country as during the LLM year), the specific skillset you have and how this skillset combines with current global legal issues.

A good example: A couple of years ago, many Brazilian schooled lawyers were accepted into BigLaws. Why? Brazil was entering its worst economic crisis in a decade, straight from a period of fast growth. Many American clients had major business in Brazil, suddently turning knowledge of Brazilian Law and mechanics a rare and in-demand skill.

University prestige is important? Of course, it is, after all, your presentation letter. But after that, is only another line in your resumé. I would go to the "know strongest program" in my specific field of interest.
[quote][quote][quote]You may be right about some things, but absolutely wrong about others, like NYU being equally or even more exclusive than Penn or Chicago or basing your whole criteria in the QS ranking. As much sense the first 10 of the ranking might make to you, if you look at ones ranked from 11-20 you can easlily realize why that ranking is not helpful at all.[/quote]

It is not only the QS rankings, it is by statistics NYU Law is where most of the partners at BigLaw in Europe obtained their LLMs.

But on a very important note, prestige is not totally correlated with exclusivity. Michigan is more exclusive than Harvard, but you can't say that it is more prestigious. However, academic excellence is way more correlated with prestige: the quality of the staff at the Law school. It might seem a little bit shockingly to you, I think that Columbia and NYU should be placed higher than Harvard and Yale for what they offer being in the heart of NY (the most legally vibrant place in the world). And employment statistics agree with me.

He can never go wrong with any of the three. He reached the top of the top 14. He should pick the most compatible, not necessarily the most exclusive. [/quote]

Yes, you can't go wrong with either of the three. And yes, exclusivity does not necessarily mean prestige. But with respect to the statistics about NYU partners, that's easy when you accept 450 applicants instead of the 120, 70 or even 20 that other top ten law schools accept. It is not a good argument (like the QS ranking). Finally, about employment stats, if you are not American, those do not apply to you, and even if they did, I recommend you to look at the Business Insider Ranking which is the ranking that analyses school from that perspective. There Penn is No. 1 and Yale I think is barely No. 10[/quote]

Just for the sake of argument:

The Business Insider Ranking quoted analyzes the job placement after J.D. Hardly a parameter for LLM students. In fact, which university issued your LLM diploma is, probably, one of the last things looked by possible employers.
It is very important for any foreign lawyer considering to secure a job position after its LLM to understand this: To every law firm, big or small, even after passing NY/CA Bar, we are "legally" handicapped. In this sense, what can award you a job position is networking (both in your home country as during the LLM year), the specific skillset you have and how this skillset combines with current global legal issues.

A good example: A couple of years ago, many Brazilian schooled lawyers were accepted into BigLaws. Why? Brazil was entering its worst economic crisis in a decade, straight from a period of fast growth. Many American clients had major business in Brazil, suddently turning knowledge of Brazilian Law and mechanics a rare and in-demand skill.

University prestige is important? Of course, it is, after all, your presentation letter. But after that, is only another line in your resumé. I would go to the "know strongest program" in my specific field of interest.
quote

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