Does anyone know how difficult it is to obtain the Certificate of Qualification? I did a bit of perusing on the NCA's website and saw some published statistics. Apparently, from the period 1999 to 2009, there were a total of 4515 applications sent to the NCA in the hope of obtaining a Certificate. Out of 4515 applicants, only 1708 people succeeded in obtaining it: a success rate of only 38%. Are these statistics indicative of your experiences? I based my calculations on the 2 PDF files located on NCA's site: http://www.flsc.ca/en/foreignLawyers/stats.asp

I am currently a law student studying in England and will have an LLM by the end of August 2011. I find these statistics very discouraging for someone who wants to return to Canada to practise.

Thanks,
Vincent

Hi, to be honest I find that surprising because though I have not completed my friend who started before me has and she now has her certificate; additionally my other friend who started after my first friend passed all his and now has one more to complete. I, myself find that the material is very extensive, I certainly have to cover more areas than when I was at the Norman Manley Law School but taken as a whole once you cover the material and know where to find it, the questions are not too difficult. Still, notwithstanding what I have said, the lack of choice in the exam questions themselves is a bit disconcerting . GOOD LUCK!!!

Nicholene - when did you apply to the NCA for an assessment of your credentials? I have been thinking of doing it myself, but wasn't sure if it would be better to do it before I did my LLM or after. I honestly probably wouldn't change the courses I was going to take in order to get out of NCA requirements, and I know that many Canadian schools won't let you take those subjects as an LLM student (since they are more entry level courses), but it's conceivable I might take something on the margins of my interest. On the other hand, having the LLM in the bag or at least in progress might be useful in other ways when applying.

As for the number of applicants versus percent passing, I assume there's a huge number of people that apply, find out they have to take a class or a bunch of tests, and then never do it.

To aid others in deciding what to do about the NCA, here is my situation...

I am American and have a J.D. from a Tier-1 U.S. law school. I am a member of a U.S. state bar, and have some professional experience.

I have almost completed an LL.M. at a law faculty in Canada, and have applied to say in Canada as a permanent resident.

I applied to the NCA for an evaluation on December 2009, and recently received the evaluation. In all communication with the NCA, I have found the employees helpful and friendly.

The NCA assigned three exams: (1) Canadian Constitutional Law; (2) Criminal Law and Procedure; and (3) Fundamentals of Canadian Law.

But for taking Administiave Law for credit as an exchange student in Canada during my J.D., I believe that the NCA would have assigned that exam too.

I have taken a graduate course in legal theory in Canada that will satisfy the requirements for Fundamentals of Canadian Law when I receive my LL.M. in May.

Thus, I have to write two exams in May 2010 to obtain a Certificate of Qualification.

From looking at the Letter of Recommendation, I believe that important factors in the evaluation process include (in no order): (1) duration of J.D. or LL.B.; (2) law licence or bar membership; (3) accreditation of law degree granting institution (e.g. American Bar Association); (4) legal system (e.g. common law, civil law, hybrid); and (5) pre-law education. These factors indicate that the essence of the evaluation process is the similarity between the applicant's legal credentials and the credentials of a Canadian J.D./LL.B. graduate.

This information is only about my personal experience, and does not constitute advice to anyone else.

Thanks for the info! I am probably in a similar boat as you, so good to know I would probably not have a huge amount work I would have to do. Maybe I'll finally get around to doing the paperwork...

Hi, my perience has been the same. I find that the NCA staff is extremely accommodating but I should point out that the exams themselves should allow more of a choice, which based on my experience with those who have taken it in the past, appears to have been the policy of the old administration. I was surprised in January to find that in taking Administrative Law and Constitutional Law that I had no choice but to do all three(3) questions which were not evenly valued to begin with. still, that notwithstanding I stand by my previous assessment that the exams are manageble once you study.

GOOD LUCK!!!!

Hi, I just have a question, hopefully someone could help me with: I got my LLM from eastern europe university in 2007. since I left the country right after the completion of the program, I never took BAR exam. Is certificate of call for Bar a MUST when applying for assessment of legal credentials? thank you

Hi,

At first blush, I would say-yes, a bar call is required, based on the information contained on the website and my experience with the NCA. However, you should feel free to call and make enquiries.

The FLSC have set up a task force and have recommended that the challange exam should be reduced to just 3 !!!

http://www.flsc.ca/en/whatsnew/whatsnew.asp

I suppose I'll add my experience with the NCA. I recently graduated with an LL.B. degree in a three year program from the University of London's External Programme with a 2:2 and was recommended by the NCA to complete a Canadian law degree for the full three years. I found this to be absolutely absurd and without good reason.

They stated in the letter the following:

"You graduated from the University of London in 2009, with a distance degree, and with lower second class honours.

In making this evaluation, we considered not only the nature and extent of your legal education and background, but also the applicability of these to Canadian legal training and preparation for practise in the Canadian context. Based on the above criteria, we have determined that you should undertake substantial Canadian legal education before proceeding to the Bar Admission Program of a province or territory in Canada. We recommend that you complete a full three year Canadian law degree."

I found this evaluation to be harsh and unfair. While my marks for the LLB program were average, I don't believe that their decision was justified enough, and not enough weight was given to my other qualifications and experience. If the decision weighed heavily on marks, the question remains why should LLB holders of a different country be treated as such? Since when does granting access to the bar depend on marks for Canadian law students? Finding an articling position might be harder, but there is no indication that you have to have a B average or above in order to write the bar.

First, I have an Honours Bachelor of Science degree from the University of Toronto in Psychology with particular focus in Neuropsychology. I have written a research paper in neuropsychology which has been accepted for publication in a peer-reviewed journal. Additionally, I have worked with a Canadian Criminal lawyer in Toronto as a summer student since 2006 in order to gain exposure and familiarize myself with the Canadian legal system.

It would seem that based on my evaluation that much weight is given to how you obtained your degree (i.e. classroom vs. distance learning), your marks, and the length of your degree. In any case, thats my current situation, I plan to appeal their decision and find it quite unfair.

Hi,

I am actually glad that I saw your post because a friend of mine has a distance degree; and as faith would have it, that degree is from the University of London. She intends to apply to have her credentials evaluated and I would hate to think that your experience would apply to her situation as well. I should add that she was called to the Jamaican Bar after completion of her distance programme... you did not indicate whether you have been called to any commonwealth bar association/Law society. would you mind sharing that information?

Regards,

Hi Nicholene,

Of course I can share information :). I have not been called to any bar association yet. Your friend is likely to be in a better position than I am given that she was called to the bar.

The NCA further states that classroom experience is an integral part of legal learning, and given the nature of the distance learning course they did not believe it was an adequate legal learning experience.

Ironically ... Osgoode now offers an LL.M. via distance learning. I'm sure that Osgoode wouldn't taint its reputation by offering something that was inferior to classroom learning, now would they? ;-)

EDIT: I'm reading the Task Force on the Canadian Law Degree Final Report dated October 2009. The Task Force readily point out that there is a problem with the evaluation system. On page 19, "the difficulty with this test [i.e. applicant must complete [education] equal to those who have earned a Canadian LL.B./J.D. degree] is that there is no articulated standard or requirement for the Canadian LL.B./J.D. degree against which the NCA requirements can be measured."

One of the major requirements of the NCA is that the applicant have sufficient knowledge of Canadian law. It might be my ignorance, but I fail to see how any country outside of Canada would provide any Canadian legal background as those required by the NCA. It would seem obvious that if one is studying outside of Canada, they wouldn't learn about Canadian law, they would be learning the legal systems of that country where their school is located.

Of course an applicant needs to know the laws of the country they wish to practise in, but it would only be fair if everyone was given an equal opportunity and chance to write the challenge exams, and only if they fail should they be required to complete a full Canadian law degree.

Hi again,

Thank you for your prompt response. Here's to keeping my fingers crossed that your assessment of her chances is correct. By the by, I agree that the assessment is ad hoc and I am sorry about their assessment of your degree. Did you ever consider being called in England before pursuing this option to improve your chances upon assessment?

Cheers

Ya, I hope that your friend is in a better position than myself. I did consider applying to be a solicitor in England, however, it seems that it would take even longer to become a solicitor there than it would here.

In England, there is a one year Legal Practise Course (LPC), followed by a two year training contract with a solicitor, followed by your application to the rolls. So even then, it would be at least three years. Not only that, but I was born and raised in Canada, my whole family resides in Canada, and my girlfriend of 10 years also lives in Canada. It would be too much to just pick up and leave it all behind.

The hardest part is to find a training contract with an average mark of 2:2. It's too easy for the legal world to look at the mark and quickly dismiss these students as lacking the necessary qualifications, intellect, and dedication it takes to be a lawyer.

It may be in my own defence, but I have always found there to be a tenuous relationship between academic marks and an individuals true intellectual ability. In the UK at least, one need not look far for an example - Fiona Shackleton, family lawyer representing high profile clients like the late Princess Diana, Paul McCartney among others. She holds a law degree with third class honours from University of Exeter. Of course, her success might possibly be from connections, but there has to be at least a certain amount of intellect to continue to be a successful solicitor.

i have heard that SA law is closely related to Canadian, is this true, if so to what extent and which requirements does one have to meet in order to practice law in Canada?

It is so strange but I find that it is more difficult to practice law abroad (outside Jamaica) than to practice within i.e. here, once you are called to the bar, no matter the level of your degree, be it first class hons. or lower second class hons. finding a job is almost as of right . In fact there is a large proportion from each graduating class that never look for a job but simply set up their practice straight out of Law school; the friend that I told you about set up her practice immediately and she wants to have a practice in Canada as well, which is why she is trying to be called there. However, the more information I get, the more I wonder if the whole exercise isn't just pointless. In any event I hope your review is successful.

Cheers.

Hi everyone,

This thread has been VERY helpful, but there is one thing I'm unclear on.

Backstory:

I've got an undergraduate degree in commerce from the University of Calgary here in Canada. I've gotten acceptance to the 2 year LLb program at Leicester, and was wondering if it makes a big difference if I do the 2 or 3 year program, as far as the NCA is concerned?

Upon reviewing their website it seems like only 3 year program graduates can get the option to write the challenge exams. Is this the case??

hello all,

i am a canadian citizen and due to lack of funds and time i decided to obtain an external llb from the university of london...i obtained the degree in 2009 and applied to the NCA...they indicated that i required 6 nca challenge exams and 8 upper year courses from a canadian law school....that is a lot....problem is I can't gain admission into a Canadian law school...i have a BA from York University in Toronto and a diploma in Paralegal from Seneca College in Toronto and have been practicing as a paralegal since 2002 and currently own an operate my own firm (one that actually employs a lawyer)....the NCA doesn't care about any of that...so what do i do now?

just as a note, the people that i have dealt with at the NCA have been really nice and professional....I just wish their requirements were more consistent and fair...

Hey,

I am sorry to here about your particular problem but on the upside you have a practice and I would suggest that you continue to do your daily routines until you actually are successful in your application for admision to a canadian law school. I know that it does not help much and that it is frustrating given your background but you just have to keep the faith.

Cheers and Goodluck!

i got a question for you guys .
i`ve been practising law for 4 years and a half as a lawyer in romania and i want to come to Canada and i would really want to know what do i have to do to be able to practice law in canada.i`m fluent in english and french is a bit rusty but i can get better easy .