2 year LLB for Foreign Lawyers? (Canada)


leungalv

Unfortunately, there is no certain answer with the NCA. They might require you to do 4 challenge exams, they may require you to complete 8 challenge exams + 1 year university, they may require you to complete 13 challenge exams. There is no transparency nor consistency to their apparent "fair" assessment system.

As far as whether 2 vs. 3 year program matters, for sure it does, because the NCA claims that a two year law degree is "inadequate". The unfortunate thing is that I believe the NCA is running counter to FARPA, but because the LSUC is a self governing body, no one is doing anything significant to have their assessment methods thrown out. It is pure and utter BS in my opinion.

I recently had my appeal rejected by the NCA citing lack of legal experience and "low mark". I fail to see how that is a fair assessment of a degree. In Canada, since when do law students have to meet a minimum academic requirement before having access to the law licensing process? Since never is the correct answer. A Canadian law student can apply to write the Canadian bar exam having graduated with a D- or 50% from a three year Canadian law program. Will he/she get hired by a top Bay Street firm? Likely not, but that's not even necessary because if he/she has relatives who can take them in to article, that D- student is set on his/her way to becoming a lawyer ... while the international student or lawyer has to deal with the political BS of playing the "marks" and "experience" game to determine how many (if any) challenge exams they will have to write when in reality there are only four subject areas that are specific to Canadian law!

I will continue to appeal to higher authority, but I hope this may shed some light on how the NCA somewhat operates. There is a group on Facebook with discussion on what and how many courses international students/lawyers are asked to take. You will find that the NCA's decisions are incredibly inconsistent.

Unfortunately, there is no certain answer with the NCA. They might require you to do 4 challenge exams, they may require you to complete 8 challenge exams + 1 year university, they may require you to complete 13 challenge exams. There is no transparency nor consistency to their apparent "fair" assessment system.

As far as whether 2 vs. 3 year program matters, for sure it does, because the NCA claims that a two year law degree is "inadequate". The unfortunate thing is that I believe the NCA is running counter to FARPA, but because the LSUC is a self governing body, no one is doing anything significant to have their assessment methods thrown out. It is pure and utter BS in my opinion.

I recently had my appeal rejected by the NCA citing lack of legal experience and "low mark". I fail to see how that is a fair assessment of a degree. In Canada, since when do law students have to meet a minimum academic requirement before having access to the law licensing process? Since never is the correct answer. A Canadian law student can apply to write the Canadian bar exam having graduated with a D- or 50% from a three year Canadian law program. Will he/she get hired by a top Bay Street firm? Likely not, but that's not even necessary because if he/she has relatives who can take them in to article, that D- student is set on his/her way to becoming a lawyer ... while the international student or lawyer has to deal with the political BS of playing the "marks" and "experience" game to determine how many (if any) challenge exams they will have to write when in reality there are only four subject areas that are specific to Canadian law!

I will continue to appeal to higher authority, but I hope this may shed some light on how the NCA somewhat operates. There is a group on Facebook with discussion on what and how many courses international students/lawyers are asked to take. You will find that the NCA's decisions are incredibly inconsistent.
quote
gfall88

I could not agree with you more.....I am finalizing my appeal as we speak but I am not hopeful that it will change their mind...they will take my $325 and tell me to essentially fly a kite.....I have been working in the legal industry both as a law clerk and paralegal but they do not take that into consideration....but the graduating D- student that you refer to has SOOOOOO much more experience then me, how much you ask - SQUAT!.....what do you mean by higher levels of appeal? I have heard some argue that they are infringing on human / charter rights????

I could not agree with you more.....I am finalizing my appeal as we speak but I am not hopeful that it will change their mind...they will take my $325 and tell me to essentially fly a kite.....I have been working in the legal industry both as a law clerk and paralegal but they do not take that into consideration....but the graduating D- student that you refer to has SOOOOOO much more experience then me, how much you ask - SQUAT!.....what do you mean by higher levels of appeal? I have heard some argue that they are infringing on human / charter rights????
quote
Faraz_B

hey everyone,

Anyone thinking of doing the External LLb programs, don't.

From what the NCA told me, because it's not at a physical classroom, you will have a LOT of hoops to jump through. Most of those hoops would get you a Canadian LLB to begin with.

If you have an Undergrad, and take a classroom based LLB program, then you can just get challenge exams. A 2 year program you would do the 4 Canadian ones (Fundamentals, Administrative, Criminal, Constitutional, i think?) and then maybe some other. I was told (doing a 2 year at the univ of leicester) that I'll probably do 7. People doing 3 year deals might only do the 4.

So in short: Doing it online, expect (at least for now) to be asked to attend a Canadian law school and do exams maybe.

If you do it in person, and have a Canadian undergrad, then you should only have to write some NCA exams, which have been reduced in number a bit.

But, calling the NCA to find out for yourselves is never a bad idea....

hey everyone,

Anyone thinking of doing the External LLb programs, don't.

From what the NCA told me, because it's not at a physical classroom, you will have a LOT of hoops to jump through. Most of those hoops would get you a Canadian LLB to begin with.

If you have an Undergrad, and take a classroom based LLB program, then you can just get challenge exams. A 2 year program you would do the 4 Canadian ones (Fundamentals, Administrative, Criminal, Constitutional, i think?) and then maybe some other. I was told (doing a 2 year at the univ of leicester) that I'll probably do 7. People doing 3 year deals might only do the 4.

So in short: Doing it online, expect (at least for now) to be asked to attend a Canadian law school and do exams maybe.

If you do it in person, and have a Canadian undergrad, then you should only have to write some NCA exams, which have been reduced in number a bit.

But, calling the NCA to find out for yourselves is never a bad idea....

quote
leungalv

I would have to agree with Faraz_B, if you are intending to PRACTISE law in Canada or the US, do not take the UofL External program. It is a completely worthless degree outside of the UK. I completed my degree in August 2009, and have filed appeals with the NCA, emailed Deborah Wolfe, spoken with lawyers about the case to no avail.

No US State will recognize a correspondence degree, and Canada does not recognize it either. It is a complete waste of time. I now find myself applying to law schools in Canada and the US and LLM programs to make up for it.

I hardly find the evaluations and appeals of the NCA fair and impartial in accordance with FARPA, 2006. How can the appeal committee be impartial if its comprised of deans of law schools across Canada??? The only thing to do now is to appeal to judicial review. For certain the requirements of minimum marks should be struck down.

I would have to agree with Faraz_B, if you are intending to PRACTISE law in Canada or the US, do not take the UofL External program. It is a completely worthless degree outside of the UK. I completed my degree in August 2009, and have filed appeals with the NCA, emailed Deborah Wolfe, spoken with lawyers about the case to no avail.

No US State will recognize a correspondence degree, and Canada does not recognize it either. It is a complete waste of time. I now find myself applying to law schools in Canada and the US and LLM programs to make up for it.

I hardly find the evaluations and appeals of the NCA fair and impartial in accordance with FARPA, 2006. How can the appeal committee be impartial if its comprised of deans of law schools across Canada??? The only thing to do now is to appeal to judicial review. For certain the requirements of minimum marks should be struck down.
quote

hi...
i am a law graduate from india. i passed out this year itself. i intend to settle in canada and practise there. i have come to know that doing LLM from canada will not be of any help if one has done his LLB in foreign country as there are bleak chances of getting the job in canada.
kindly tell me as to what i can do. should i go for LLB from canada all over again(i wont mind doing LLB all over again if i have the sure shot chances of gettin into canadian bar association) or should i go on NCA route. which one of the two will help in becoming the member of the bar ASAP.

please advise me.

thank you in advance.

Regards

hi...
i am a law graduate from india. i passed out this year itself. i intend to settle in canada and practise there. i have come to know that doing LLM from canada will not be of any help if one has done his LLB in foreign country as there are bleak chances of getting the job in canada.
kindly tell me as to what i can do. should i go for LLB from canada all over again(i wont mind doing LLB all over again if i have the sure shot chances of gettin into canadian bar association) or should i go on NCA route. which one of the two will help in becoming the member of the bar ASAP.

please advise me.

thank you in advance.

Regards
quote
Inactive User

Hi, Gaurav,
with the very few idea I have on NCA process and practing law in canada, I would advise you not to take LLB again. Instaed, you take NCA route. NCA may recommend 5 to 8 exams for u to clear which you can clear in the coming 1.5 or 2 years. For enrolling you need to do 10/12 months articling from any law firm in any province you want to enroll in canada. Complete that articling and enron as attorney in canada. This would be right approach for you. Getting articling may be a little bit difficult but if you have any known contacts in canada you may easily get one. Doing articling is good because you can get in touch with canadian legal working style at the same it can serve as a canadian expereince for you which is a must for getting positions in any law firm or corporate.

Hope this info is useful for you.

-LegalIndia

Hi, Gaurav,
with the very few idea I have on NCA process and practing law in canada, I would advise you not to take LLB again. Instaed, you take NCA route. NCA may recommend 5 to 8 exams for u to clear which you can clear in the coming 1.5 or 2 years. For enrolling you need to do 10/12 months articling from any law firm in any province you want to enroll in canada. Complete that articling and enron as attorney in canada. This would be right approach for you. Getting articling may be a little bit difficult but if you have any known contacts in canada you may easily get one. Doing articling is good because you can get in touch with canadian legal working style at the same it can serve as a canadian expereince for you which is a must for getting positions in any law firm or corporate.

Hope this info is useful for you.

-LegalIndia
quote

thank you so very much. it is undoubtedly very useful in making up of my mind. but the problem here is that i dont have any contacts in canada. i came to kno that LLB in canada will beof 3 years and enrollment+job would be much much earsier for the person like me who does not have any one in canada (articling would be problem since i kno no one). i would, however, be wasting one extra year.

what is your take on this?? do reply. i'll be waitng for the reply.

thank you so very much. it is undoubtedly very useful in making up of my mind. but the problem here is that i dont have any contacts in canada. i came to kno that LLB in canada will beof 3 years and enrollment+job would be much much earsier for the person like me who does not have any one in canada (articling would be problem since i kno no one). i would, however, be wasting one extra year.

what is your take on this?? do reply. i'll be waitng for the reply.
quote
Inactive User

HI,
Doing llb again means you have to waster 1 to 2 years of your valuable time there. So, NCA route would be better for you ( in my view). I agree getting articling may be diffifult, but once you made up your mind to settle in Canada, by hook or crook, you need to get one. U need to try hard. You also have the option of getting urself enrolled in india and have 1 or 2 years of working expereince till the time you complete ur NCA exams& till you move over to canada. By this you can get articling exempted for enrolling in canada. (this exemtpion is there, but I am not clear on details. So, pl check provincial bar regulations).

Or else, better to opt for fulltime LLM. Work exp is not a mandatory pre-requisite for LLM in Canada. So, go for some fulltime LLM in any top law school. Simoultenously with LLM you need to clear your NCA requirment, so that by the time you complete ur LLM you should be in a position to go for articling and enroll. Because you would develop some contacts while you doing ur LLM, getting articling may not be a problem for you then. During LLM also you can work part time there. Big universities like University of Toronto, Oosgarde etc also offer training for NCA exams. Another advantage of doing fulltime LLM in Canada is that after finishing ur LLM, you can take a work permit for one year with out any hassles.(Please read cic regulations).

In any case, moving to overseas for career settlement is a very cucial step in ones' life. So, plan properly.
Best of Luck.

-LegalIndia

HI,
Doing llb again means you have to waster 1 to 2 years of your valuable time there. So, NCA route would be better for you ( in my view). I agree getting articling may be diffifult, but once you made up your mind to settle in Canada, by hook or crook, you need to get one. U need to try hard. You also have the option of getting urself enrolled in india and have 1 or 2 years of working expereince till the time you complete ur NCA exams& till you move over to canada. By this you can get articling exempted for enrolling in canada. (this exemtpion is there, but I am not clear on details. So, pl check provincial bar regulations).

Or else, better to opt for fulltime LLM. Work exp is not a mandatory pre-requisite for LLM in Canada. So, go for some fulltime LLM in any top law school. Simoultenously with LLM you need to clear your NCA requirment, so that by the time you complete ur LLM you should be in a position to go for articling and enroll. Because you would develop some contacts while you doing ur LLM, getting articling may not be a problem for you then. During LLM also you can work part time there. Big universities like University of Toronto, Oosgarde etc also offer training for NCA exams. Another advantage of doing fulltime LLM in Canada is that after finishing ur LLM, you can take a work permit for one year with out any hassles.(Please read cic regulations).

In any case, moving to overseas for career settlement is a very cucial step in ones' life. So, plan properly.
Best of Luck.

-LegalIndia
quote
Interalia

Take it for what its worth, but I do have friends who did the NCA and couldn't get articling positions afterward, even thought they had good undergrad LLBs and a very good Canadian LLM. I have other friends who did a Canadian JD after their LLM and had significantly less problems securing articling positions. This is not to say that getting a Canadian JD guarantees an articling position, it just increases - in my opinion - one's chances as opposed to the NCA.

Accordingly, I think if one wants to practise in Canada, just do a JD instead. My personal opinion is that firms really don't care if you're technically able to qualify, they want evidence of a Canadian or at least a US JD. Of course doing a JD is a hugh investment, so you got to take that into account too.

Take it for what its worth, but I do have friends who did the NCA and couldn't get articling positions afterward, even thought they had good undergrad LLBs and a very good Canadian LLM. I have other friends who did a Canadian JD after their LLM and had significantly less problems securing articling positions. This is not to say that getting a Canadian JD guarantees an articling position, it just increases - in my opinion - one's chances as opposed to the NCA.

Accordingly, I think if one wants to practise in Canada, just do a JD instead. My personal opinion is that firms really don't care if you're technically able to qualify, they want evidence of a Canadian or at least a US JD. Of course doing a JD is a hugh investment, so you got to take that into account too.
quote

thank you thank you so so very much. may god bless you. the valuable information that you hav provided me would surely help me a great deal in making up my mind now.....

A BIG THANKS ONCE AGAIN....

thank you thank you so so very much. may god bless you. the valuable information that you hav provided me would surely help me a great deal in making up my mind now.....

A BIG THANKS ONCE AGAIN....
quote

by the way....whats the difference between JD and LLB??? as i kno.... JD means LLB and is often referred in US .........is there any difference between JD and LLB as such????
does canada has JD??? or LLB????
if at all they are different then to be in canada.....should i go for LLB or JD??????plz guide me....
thank in advance

by the way....whats the difference between JD and LLB??? as i kno.... JD means LLB and is often referred in US .........is there any difference between JD and LLB as such????
does canada has JD??? or LLB????
if at all they are different then to be in canada.....should i go for LLB or JD??????plz guide me....
thank in advance
quote
Interalia

by the way....whats the difference between JD and LLB??? as i kno.... JD means LLB and is often referred in US .........is there any difference between JD and LLB as such????
does canada has JD??? or LLB????


Technically a LLB is a Bachelor while a JD is a postgrad degree. The JD however is still a basic law degree but it is taken after the completion of a bachelor usually in a different subject like political science for example.

While that is the technical distinction, practically there is no difference amongst the two in Canada. As far as I am aware, almost all common law jurisdictions - Quebec is another matter - require some form of university preparation - if I recall correctly the technical minimum is 2 years undergrad study - before admission to the basic law degree. They label it as JD or if they are old fashioned the LLB, but basically all 'common law' law degrees in Canada are postgrad endeavors.

<blockquote>by the way....whats the difference between JD and LLB??? as i kno.... JD means LLB and is often referred in US .........is there any difference between JD and LLB as such????
does canada has JD??? or LLB????</blockquote>

Technically a LLB is a Bachelor while a JD is a postgrad degree. The JD however is still a basic law degree but it is taken after the completion of a bachelor usually in a different subject like political science for example.

While that is the technical distinction, practically there is no difference amongst the two in Canada. As far as I am aware, almost all common law jurisdictions - Quebec is another matter - require some form of university preparation - if I recall correctly the technical minimum is 2 years undergrad study - before admission to the basic law degree. They label it as JD or if they are old fashioned the LLB, but basically all 'common law' law degrees in Canada are postgrad endeavors.
quote
P_Martini

Yes. Toronto has awarded J.D.'s for a while, and a few others regrettably have changed also. I find it unsuitable for a Commonwealth country. Whether or not it is technically a post-graduate degree, they get you to the same place now, so why abandon the tradition of the LL.B.?

Yes. Toronto has awarded J.D.'s for a while, and a few others regrettably have changed also. I find it unsuitable for a Commonwealth country. Whether or not it is technically a post-graduate degree, they get you to the same place now, so why abandon the tradition of the LL.B.?
quote
Interalia

Yes. Toronto has awarded J.D.'s for a while, and a few others regrettably have changed also. I find it unsuitable for a Commonwealth country. Whether or not it is technically a post-graduate degree, they get you to the same place now, so why abandon the tradition of the LL.B.?


Its the same reason that the House of Lords is now the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom arrghhh. Call me a traditionalist - and yes I'm aware of the supposed seperation of powers issue -, but I much prefer the non-Americanization of terms. Call the House of Lords, the House of Lords darn it :) And on the same token, LLBs, LLBs and not JDs.

<blockquote>Yes. Toronto has awarded J.D.'s for a while, and a few others regrettably have changed also. I find it unsuitable for a Commonwealth country. Whether or not it is technically a post-graduate degree, they get you to the same place now, so why abandon the tradition of the LL.B.?</blockquote>

Its the same reason that the House of Lords is now the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom arrghhh. Call me a traditionalist - and yes I'm aware of the supposed seperation of powers issue -, but I much prefer the non-Americanization of terms. Call the House of Lords, the House of Lords darn it :) And on the same token, LLBs, LLBs and not JDs.
quote

hi.....
i am a law graduate from india. i intend to settle in canada and practise there. for that i must do LLB from canada(in order to get good nderstanding of law of canada). but the counsellors in india says that going for LLb from canada would be a pain as there would be VISA issues......they suggested me to go for post-graduate diploma instead.....
my question is is there any diploma which is connected to law or covers legal subjects???? if so, then what are the job prospects after such diploma??? if not so....then please suggest me a subject for post graduate diploma which can fetch me a good and well paying job in canada, which has job prospects in canada.....
i am basically focussing on the state of "Alberta" .......suggestions on other states are warmly welcomed....

please help me.....your guidance would undoubtedly be special for me...

THANKS IN ADVANCE........WAITING FOR THE REPLY..

hi.....
i am a law graduate from india. i intend to settle in canada and practise there. for that i must do LLB from canada(in order to get good nderstanding of law of canada). but the counsellors in india says that going for LLb from canada would be a pain as there would be VISA issues......they suggested me to go for post-graduate diploma instead.....
my question is is there any diploma which is connected to law or covers legal subjects???? if so, then what are the job prospects after such diploma??? if not so....then please suggest me a subject for post graduate diploma which can fetch me a good and well paying job in canada, which has job prospects in canada.....
i am basically focussing on the state of "Alberta" .......suggestions on other states are warmly welcomed....

please help me.....your guidance would undoubtedly be special for me...

THANKS IN ADVANCE........WAITING FOR THE REPLY..
quote

exactly same situation here bro....

exactly same situation here bro....
quote

Reply to Post

Related Law Schools

Montréal, Canada 198 Followers 126 Discussions
Québec, Canada 7 Followers 2 Discussions
London, United Kingdom 184 Followers 160 Discussions

Other Related Content

LL.M. Application Deadlines for Fall 2021 - Law Schools in the UK & Ireland

News Nov 23, 2020

How to Become a Lawyer in Canada

Article Dec 31, 2020

An LL.M is not a requirement but it’s certainly an asset