UPenn v NYU


Hi everyone. I don't think I found there is any existing thread about those two schools and I was thinking some people might be wondering which one to choose.
I seriously don't know which one is the best choice.
Good luck with the admissions!
Hi everyone. I don't think I found there is any existing thread about those two schools and I was thinking some people might be wondering which one to choose.
I seriously don't know which one is the best choice.
Good luck with the admissions!
quote
Good Gosh
think nyu has the edge personally, also a much nicer location. good luck with ur decision
think nyu has the edge personally, also a much nicer location. good luck with ur decision
quote
iamhzt
I also get admissions from the two schools and puzzle over the selection issue. I try to make some comparisons (briefed as follows) but obviously they are inaccurate and incomplete. I would be glad to be informed of any mistakes or missing information.

In order to make the following comparisons, I refer to Brian Leiter's "Most Cited Law Professors by Specialty, 2000-2007" (http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2007faculty_impact_areas.shtml#BusinessLaw) and websites of the two schools for the course description and the faculty information.

Since I am a commercial litigator planning to keep the carrier on the same track (I am not interested in practicing law in US), the comparisons are of course focused on the corporate, commercial law and international dispute resolution. I intentionally avoid taking about any names, so you may check the websites for further information if you are interested in anything I mention in this post.

Here is something I dug out:

1. In the business law part of Leiter's ranking, UPenn has several professors mentioned although they are not ranked in top 20. Some of them were in other universities but became UPenn's law faculty later. It seems that NYU has only two mentioned in the ranking (and another two regarded as "Other highly-cited scholars who dont work exclusively in this area"); however, NYU has a Delaware ex-judge teaching corporation.

2.The two law schools have a professor teaching international litigation and a practitioner teaching international arbitration. I prefer the ones UPenn provides after checking the lecturers' background and Leiter's ranking.

3.UPenn has a practitioner teaching international business transaction regularly, but it seems that NYU does not offer such course each year.

4.It seems that NYU does not offer courses regarding contract drafting or deals. (Please do correct me if I am wrong. Maybe they are taught in other courses.).

5.Both law schools offer a lot of selective courses in corporate and commercial law. However, NYU seems to offer courses with more extensive coverage, such as investment banking, microfinance or financial instruments.

6. NYU seems to impose limitation on traditional LLM students regarding course selection. The website reads that "Corporations (L03.2010) for either four or five credits is open in the fall only to LL.M. students in the Corporation Law or International Business Regulation, Litigation and Arbitration specializations. Students in other specializations may register for the three credit course in U.S. Corporate Law and Theory (L03.4602) or for the spring section of Corporations (L03.2010)." I am not sure if this policy would lead to conflict of schedule and how sever such conflict could be, if any.

7.Maybe other factors, such as Wharton certificate or location, should also play a role.

It's really complicated and hard to make the decision!
I also get admissions from the two schools and puzzle over the selection issue. I try to make some comparisons (briefed as follows) but obviously they are inaccurate and incomplete. I would be glad to be informed of any mistakes or missing information.

In order to make the following comparisons, I refer to Brian Leiter's "Most Cited Law Professors by Specialty, 2000-2007" (http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2007faculty_impact_areas.shtml#BusinessLaw) and websites of the two schools for the course description and the faculty information.

Since I am a commercial litigator planning to keep the carrier on the same track (I am not interested in practicing law in US), the comparisons are of course focused on the corporate, commercial law and international dispute resolution. I intentionally avoid taking about any names, so you may check the websites for further information if you are interested in anything I mention in this post.

Here is something I dug out:

1. In the business law part of Leiter's ranking, UPenn has several professors mentioned although they are not ranked in top 20. Some of them were in other universities but became UPenn's law faculty later. It seems that NYU has only two mentioned in the ranking (and another two regarded as "Other highly-cited scholars who don’t work exclusively in this area"); however, NYU has a Delaware ex-judge teaching corporation.

2.The two law schools have a professor teaching international litigation and a practitioner teaching international arbitration. I prefer the ones UPenn provides after checking the lecturers' background and Leiter's ranking.

3.UPenn has a practitioner teaching international business transaction regularly, but it seems that NYU does not offer such course each year.

4.It seems that NYU does not offer courses regarding contract drafting or deals. (Please do correct me if I am wrong. Maybe they are taught in other courses.).

5.Both law schools offer a lot of selective courses in corporate and commercial law. However, NYU seems to offer courses with more extensive coverage, such as investment banking, microfinance or financial instruments.

6. NYU seems to impose limitation on traditional LLM students regarding course selection. The website reads that "Corporations (L03.2010) for either four or five credits is open in the fall only to LL.M. students in the Corporation Law or International Business Regulation, Litigation and Arbitration specializations. Students in other specializations may register for the three credit course in U.S. Corporate Law and Theory (L03.4602) or for the spring section of Corporations (L03.2010)." I am not sure if this policy would lead to conflict of schedule and how sever such conflict could be, if any.

7.Maybe other factors, such as Wharton certificate or location, should also play a role.

It's really complicated and hard to make the decision!
quote
Hi! Thank you for your comment. I have to admit I have not yet done a thorough comparison between the courses taught in each school. I was wondering to what extent, since I got admitted to the traditional LL.M. program, I could actually enroll in any class I want. Where exactly did you find the information that some courses were open to specialized LL.M. only? On the courses offering page there is no mention of that (or at least I cannot find it).
For the moment I had only focused on each school's reputation (having been told that NYU was standing out in international law and that UPenn's Ivy League seal might be more an American thing), the cost of living.... (the weather...?). I guess I was just trying to be as comprehensive as possible!
I have not applied to the Wharton Certificate but if you have it is said to be outstanding so you should definitely go for it.
Are you waiting for other schools' decisions? Maybe that would make things easier (or even harder!).
Hi! Thank you for your comment. I have to admit I have not yet done a thorough comparison between the courses taught in each school. I was wondering to what extent, since I got admitted to the traditional LL.M. program, I could actually enroll in any class I want. Where exactly did you find the information that some courses were open to specialized LL.M. only? On the courses offering page there is no mention of that (or at least I cannot find it).
For the moment I had only focused on each school's reputation (having been told that NYU was standing out in international law and that UPenn's Ivy League seal might be more an American thing), the cost of living.... (the weather...?). I guess I was just trying to be as comprehensive as possible!
I have not applied to the Wharton Certificate but if you have it is said to be outstanding so you should definitely go for it.
Are you waiting for other schools' decisions? Maybe that would make things easier (or even harder!).
quote
Aky
If I had to choose between Upenn and NYU, although both are very close, I think I would prefer NYU

Because :
-NYU has a slightly better ranking (NYU is #6 and UPenn #7) : http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings
-NYU is also preferred by recruiters : http://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/articles/2011/03/07/law-firm-recruiters-rank-best-law-schools
-UPen is an Ivy and very prestigious in USA, but outside USA it's not that much reknown, whereas NYU is really known worldwide. For example, in France (and by extent, in Europe I would say), NYU would open more doors that UPenn, and is a lot more "famous". NYU has therefore much an international influence, whereas for UPenn it's more national (inside USA)
-for recruiters in law firms (in Europe for example), New York sounds more professional and "business-style" than Philadelphia. It would also open more doors.
-In New York, you have job fairs and career fairs every year, and as a NYU student, you can easily take part into it.
-If you plan to take the New York Bar examination, it would be easier, not only for preparation, but also for location.
-New York would be a real experience. I don't say that Philadelphia is that bad, but New York is New York ! Awesome city to visit and to live in !

But that's just a simple point of view ! As for myself, I didn't apply (I couldn't actually at that time) to NYU... :/

But no matter which one you choose, it will be a nice choice ! Don't worry ! ;)
But just be sure you won't regret it after (not only of a matter of university, but also city, living, experience, Bar examination, etc.)
If I had to choose between Upenn and NYU, although both are very close, I think I would prefer NYU

Because :
-NYU has a slightly better ranking (NYU is #6 and UPenn #7) : http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings
-NYU is also preferred by recruiters : http://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/articles/2011/03/07/law-firm-recruiters-rank-best-law-schools
-UPen is an Ivy and very prestigious in USA, but outside USA it's not that much reknown, whereas NYU is really known worldwide. For example, in France (and by extent, in Europe I would say), NYU would open more doors that UPenn, and is a lot more "famous". NYU has therefore much an international influence, whereas for UPenn it's more national (inside USA)
-for recruiters in law firms (in Europe for example), New York sounds more professional and "business-style" than Philadelphia. It would also open more doors.
-In New York, you have job fairs and career fairs every year, and as a NYU student, you can easily take part into it.
-If you plan to take the New York Bar examination, it would be easier, not only for preparation, but also for location.
-New York would be a real experience. I don't say that Philadelphia is that bad, but New York is New York ! Awesome city to visit and to live in !

But that's just a simple point of view ! As for myself, I didn't apply (I couldn't actually at that time) to NYU... :/

But no matter which one you choose, it will be a nice choice ! Don't worry ! ;)
But just be sure you won't regret it after (not only of a matter of university, but also city, living, experience, Bar examination, etc.)
quote
iamhzt
I was wondering to what extent, since I got admitted to the traditional LL.M. program, I could actually enroll in any class I want. Where exactly did you find the information that some courses were open to specialized LL.M. only? On the courses offering page there is no mention of that (or at least I cannot find it).

@BreakfastSweet

Here: http://www.law.nyu.edu/llmjsd/llmnewyork/traditionalllm/degreerequirements/index.htm , the third paragraph.

Yes, I am waiting for decisions from other law schools. I wish they could make my final decsion easier :).
<blockquote> I was wondering to what extent, since I got admitted to the traditional LL.M. program, I could actually enroll in any class I want. Where exactly did you find the information that some courses were open to specialized LL.M. only? On the courses offering page there is no mention of that (or at least I cannot find it).
</blockquote>
@BreakfastSweet

Here: http://www.law.nyu.edu/llmjsd/llmnewyork/traditionalllm/degreerequirements/index.htm , the third paragraph.

Yes, I am waiting for decisions from other law schools. I wish they could make my final decsion easier :).
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mikado
If I had to choose between Upenn and NYU, although both are very close, I think I would prefer NYU

-UPen is an Ivy and very prestigious in USA, but outside USA it's not that much reknown, whereas NYU is really known worldwide. For example, in France (and by extent, in Europe I would say), NYU would open more doors that UPenn, and is a lot more "famous". NYU has therefore much an international influence, whereas for UPenn it's more national (inside USA)
-for recruiters in law firms (in Europe for example), New York sounds more professional and "business-style" than Philadelphia. It would also open more doors.


Hmmm, I've often heard from lawyers in France (in Paris and from rather prestigious law firms) that NYU is not the best seen LLM in the top 10 as they take way too much students and young graduates compared to other Programs.

I would personnally choose NYU for subjective reasons though (location, etc).

Anyway, you're right, you can't really go wrong with any of these two Unis.
<blockquote>If I had to choose between Upenn and NYU, although both are very close, I think I would prefer NYU

-UPen is an Ivy and very prestigious in USA, but outside USA it's not that much reknown, whereas NYU is really known worldwide. For example, in France (and by extent, in Europe I would say), NYU would open more doors that UPenn, and is a lot more "famous". NYU has therefore much an international influence, whereas for UPenn it's more national (inside USA)
-for recruiters in law firms (in Europe for example), New York sounds more professional and "business-style" than Philadelphia. It would also open more doors.
</blockquote>

Hmmm, I've often heard from lawyers in France (in Paris and from rather prestigious law firms) that NYU is not the best seen LLM in the top 10 as they take way too much students and young graduates compared to other Programs.

I would personnally choose NYU for subjective reasons though (location, etc).

Anyway, you're right, you can't really go wrong with any of these two Unis.
quote
chyamaka
O my, what shall I do, I need tochange from corporation law to either international legal studies or trad LLM (for NYU). Can someone advise me?

Secondly, is it possible for me to seek a waiver of the acceptance since I am unable to pay same within the short time available and the fact that I was given a full tuition award.

gogo
O my, what shall I do, I need tochange from corporation law to either international legal studies or trad LLM (for NYU). Can someone advise me?

Secondly, is it possible for me to seek a waiver of the acceptance since I am unable to pay same within the short time available and the fact that I was given a full tuition award.

gogo
quote
@iamhzt
I received NYU's brochure yesterday and boy, it seems great!
Apparently you can switch to a specialized LL.M. before June 1st (if you really wanted to enroll in that corporation class in the fall). You can also take classes at the Business School in a joint-degree program (although it seems that it would start rather soon! End of May or so (from what I remember). That would even the balance with UPenn I guess.
@iamhzt
I received NYU's brochure yesterday and boy, it seems great!
Apparently you can switch to a specialized LL.M. before June 1st (if you really wanted to enroll in that corporation class in the fall). You can also take classes at the Business School in a joint-degree program (although it seems that it would start rather soon! End of May or so (from what I remember). That would even the balance with UPenn I guess.
quote
@ Mikado

I am aware of the rather high number of admissions and I was concerned about it for a while. But I think that could be qualified since NYU has one of the largest number of students; and given that the ratio faculty/students is rather small, it kinda makes up for the crowded LL.M program.
@ Mikado

I am aware of the rather high number of admissions and I was concerned about it for a while. But I think that could be qualified since NYU has one of the largest number of students; and given that the ratio faculty/students is rather small, it kinda makes up for the crowded LL.M program.
quote
Borderline
I got into Penn, still waiting for NYU. I wouldn't know which one to choose were I accepted to NYU as well.

As said before, NYU has a better brand, but having classes with JD students could be an advantage.
I got into Penn, still waiting for NYU. I wouldn't know which one to choose were I accepted to NYU as well.

As said before, NYU has a better brand, but having classes with JD students could be an advantage.
quote
Where did you find that classes were separate? I cannot find this information anywhere. I am in the traditional LL.M. program, and this would be a huge turn-off...
Where did you find that classes were separate? I cannot find this information anywhere. I am in the traditional LL.M. program, and this would be a huge turn-off...
quote
Borderline
You should verify it with the school, but I believe I read it somewhere in this forum.
You should verify it with the school, but I believe I read it somewhere in this forum.
quote
The thing is, I am pretty sure you are absolutely right. Why would they tailor "specialised LL.M.s" for, then? There is hope that some LL.M. programs may attract American students willing to specialise.
On the other hand, I took a bunch of classes last year at UVa and LL.M students were mixed with JDs, and that, to me, is the whole point!
I'll send an email to UPenn and NYU to find out (in a few days) and will keep you posted.
The thing is, I am pretty sure you are absolutely right. Why would they tailor "specialised LL.M.s" for, then? There is hope that some LL.M. programs may attract American students willing to specialise.
On the other hand, I took a bunch of classes last year at UVa and LL.M students were mixed with JDs, and that, to me, is the whole point!
I'll send an email to UPenn and NYU to find out (in a few days) and will keep you posted.
quote
Oldtimer

As said before, NYU has a better brand, but having classes with JD students could be an advantage.


This is, unfortunately, one of those myths that keep getting repeated in this board. Could it be that they want your place?

Again, in NYU most LLMs DO take your classes with the JDs! And if you have a doubt, contact them to ask. Do not rely on hearsay!

The only programs that are relatively isolated are the Tax LLM (for obvious reasons), and the "comparative law" folks who take most of their classes together. But that's the minority and they are not representative of the other programs.
<blockquote>
As said before, NYU has a better brand, but having classes with JD students could be an advantage.</blockquote>

This is, unfortunately, one of those myths that keep getting repeated in this board. Could it be that they want your place?

Again, in NYU most LLMs DO take your classes with the JDs! And if you have a doubt, contact them to ask. Do not rely on hearsay!

The only programs that are relatively isolated are the Tax LLM (for obvious reasons), and the "comparative law" folks who take most of their classes together. But that's the minority and they are not representative of the other programs.
quote
Borderline
Thanks for correcting us!
After writing that I went to their website to check some info about that and I couldn't find it anywhere, which made me suspicious...

As far as "wanting my place"..I wish I had one.
Thanks for correcting us!
After writing that I went to their website to check some info about that and I couldn't find it anywhere, which made me suspicious...

As far as "wanting my place"..I wish I had one.
quote
Oldtimer
The thing is, I am pretty sure you are absolutely right. Why would they tailor "specialised LL.M.s" for, then? There is hope that some LL.M. programs may attract American students willing to specialise.
On the other hand, I took a bunch of classes last year at UVa and LL.M students were mixed with JDs, and that, to me, is the whole point!
I'll send an email to UPenn and NYU to find out (in a few days) and will keep you posted.


Sorry to intervene again, but this is also completely wrong. If you are admitted to, say the LLM specialized on international law, you then need to take a certain number of credits in a certain group of classes. But you are pretty much free to take whatever you want. It may even be that you rarely see others in the same program (I.e., because they have different interests). And those classes are often the ones taken by 2L and 3Ls. They do not need to attract american LLMS, because they practically do not exist (except in tax).

I know because I already have an LLM front NYU...
<blockquote>The thing is, I am pretty sure you are absolutely right. Why would they tailor "specialised LL.M.s" for, then? There is hope that some LL.M. programs may attract American students willing to specialise.
On the other hand, I took a bunch of classes last year at UVa and LL.M students were mixed with JDs, and that, to me, is the whole point!
I'll send an email to UPenn and NYU to find out (in a few days) and will keep you posted.</blockquote>

Sorry to intervene again, but this is also completely wrong. If you are admitted to, say the LLM specialized on international law, you then need to take a certain number of credits in a certain group of classes. But you are pretty much free to take whatever you want. It may even be that you rarely see others in the same program (I.e., because they have different interests). And those classes are often the ones taken by 2L and 3Ls. They do not need to attract american LLMS, because they practically do not exist (except in tax).

I know because I already have an LLM front NYU...
quote
Thank you so much for setting the record straight!!!I could not find the information on the website.
Would you mind telling us more about your experience at NYU? =)
Thank you so much for setting the record straight!!!I could not find the information on the website.
Would you mind telling us more about your experience at NYU? =)
quote
Oldtimer
Dear BreakfastSweet,

Check out this link to a post on something I wrote last year on the eternal NYU vs. Columbia issue: http://www.llm-guide.com/board/87374/last/#post-87377

There are others who went to NYU and shared their views in that thread, so it's probably worth reading for those considering NYU.

Good luck with your decisions!
Dear BreakfastSweet,

Check out this link to a post on something I wrote last year on the eternal NYU vs. Columbia issue: http://www.llm-guide.com/board/87374/last/#post-87377

There are others who went to NYU and shared their views in that thread, so it's probably worth reading for those considering NYU.

Good luck with your decisions!
quote
mikado
@ Mikado

I am aware of the rather high number of admissions and I was concerned about it for a while. But I think that could be qualified since NYU has one of the largest number of students; and given that the ratio faculty/students is rather small, it kinda makes up for the crowded LL.M program.


I totally agree.

I was just stating the view of a few French lawyers with who I discussed NYU's LLM.
<blockquote>@ Mikado

I am aware of the rather high number of admissions and I was concerned about it for a while. But I think that could be qualified since NYU has one of the largest number of students; and given that the ratio faculty/students is rather small, it kinda makes up for the crowded LL.M program.
</blockquote>

I totally agree.

I was just stating the view of a few French lawyers with who I discussed NYU's LLM.
quote

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