NYU VS UPENN


Hi all! I am a senior undergraduate stu in China. I have got admissions from both NYU and Penn Law. It is really hard to make the final decision.
As I know, NYU's professinal rank is higher than Penn. However, from the perspective of the whole university, Penn is much better than NYU.

So, which one is actually better?

I need valuable advice.

Hi all! I am a senior undergraduate stu in China. I have got admissions from both NYU and Penn Law. It is really hard to make the final decision.
As I know, NYU's professinal rank is higher than Penn. However, from the perspective of the whole university, Penn is much better than NYU.

So, which one is actually better?

I need valuable advice.
quote
mink

Congratulation!

If I were you, I'd like to enter the NYU.

Congratulation!

If I were you, I'd like to enter the NYU.
quote
Salomon

You need valuable advice... and you'll get some.

Introduction

First of all, and to make the following advice totally objective and not biased, I need to mention that I have not been admitted to NYU (bouhhhhhh!) I have however been admitted to Penn Law.

My advice will be divided in two parts : pros (A) and cons (B). (I am French and since kindergarten we've been taught to two-fold structure our essays and papers I could have chosen another structure such (A) NYU and (B) UPenn).
A) Pros.

This part will be subdivided in two sub-parts. NYUs Pros (1.) and Penn Laws Pros (2.)

1.) NYUs Pros.

Firstly, the city. New York is definitely a terrific city to live in. I dont think that the thrill of living in New York really needs advertising.

Then, the international reputation of NYU. Back to your country (I cant speak for China of course) everyone (inside and outside the legal sphere) will be impressed of your having done an LL.M at NYU, because of both the reputation of the University and the mere fact to have spent one year in New York (youll be considered as hype and cool). LL.M programs have more or less value added and NYU, rightly or wrongly, has a lot of it.

Finally, I think that the faculty (the professors) are really good, especially concerning some specific fields (such as tax or international law).

2.) UPenns Pros

Firstly, the city. Of course Philly is not NY. But, still, its the fourth metropolis in the US, the second on the East Cost. Historically and culturally, Philly has no reason to be jealous of or shadowed by NY. Suffice it to mention that its the city where the US were created, one of (if not the) oldest cities in the country, and that is has many museums (to mention only one, the Barnes collection) and a very active cultural life. My point is that NY is not the only thrilling city to live in the US and that Philly is not Littleton, Arkansas. I have been there (in Philly, not in Littleton) for a couple of weeks last summer and really enjoyed the city. Moreover, Philly in only 1:30 hour driving away from NY (2 hours by Greyhounds). Moreover, life is way cheaper than in New York (my friends live in a 4-floor house, 4 bedrooms, 4 bathrooms : they are only 3 living there and they pay $750 each. For that price in NY, you have a parking lot)

Concerning the international reputation, Penn Law may look a bit disadvantaged, at least outside the legal sphere. Anyone in the street knows the name of NYU (mainly because of the NY in it). It is surely not the case as to UPenn. But be sure that UPenn is known and very well regarded inside the legal and business world (because of Wharton, but not only, and because its an Ivy league Uni), and thats what really counts. Its the 7th Law School in the US (I know rankings are not that useful but we cannot completely ignore them) and the 4th undergraduate college (we dont care but it is a good indicator of the standing of the University).

Finally, studying at UPenn is really a pleasure (based on my friends experience, currently attending the LL.M program). The Professors are excellent, the premises are convenient, the campus is very nice and the size of the program is really a strong advantage : 80-90 students is, for me, a perfect size. Not to small, not to big. Thanks to such a size, LL.M students are mixed up with JD, which can only be advantageous. In fact, and it will be stressed in my conclusion, its one of the strongest advantage of UPenn over NYU.

B) Cons

This part will be subdivided in two sub-parts. NYUs Cons (1.) and Penn Laws Cons (2.)

1. NYUs Cons

Firstly, the cost of living is NY. Fun, hype and coolness have a price. NY is 1.5 to twice as expensive as other big metropolis in the States.

Secondly, NYU has no campus. Its a fact, I dont really know what difference it makes, except that US universities are known for having campuses and nice campus life. No campus, no campus life.

Last, but not least, the size of the LL.M program and the fact that, mainly because of that size, LLM students are not mixed with JD students is, for me, really problematic. NYUs LL.M welcomes mas o menos 400 students, which are hermetically kept apart from the other law student. What is the point to go and study US law in the US if it is not to share the courses with US law students.(and vice-versa) Mixing LL.Ms and JDs is a valuable source of intellectual emulation and stimulation. I think its too bad that NYU prevents its students (both JDs and LL.Ms) from that. People who have been there all had pretty much the same comments: living there is great but the studies are a bit disappointing.

2. UPenns Cons

Apart from the lower international reputation of the city and the university and from the thrill and excitement to live in a city such as New York (I agree, both arguments are quite heavy), I dont see any serious drawbacks to the Penn Laws LL.M program.

Conclusion

As I already told, the main drawbacks of NYUs LL.M are its size and its price implied by living in New York (tuitions are quite similar). I realize that living in New York is so great that one is ready to pay the price for it, but, as a counterpart, I would like to have a more satisfactory LL.M program (such a Columbias, for the answer of which I am still waiting for).

I realize that you may find my observations biased and bitter, since I was not admitted to NYU. However, should I have been admitted only to Penn and to NYU, I sincerely think that I would have chosen Penn. Now, it depends on what you expect from your year of study in the US.
Hope this helps.

You need valuable advice... and you'll get some.

Introduction

First of all, and to make the following advice totally objective and not biased, I need to mention that I have not been admitted to NYU (bouhhhhhh!) I have however been admitted to Penn Law.

My advice will be divided in two parts : pros (A) and cons (B). (I am French and since kindergarten we've been taught to two-fold structure our essays and papers – I could have chosen another structure such (A) NYU and (B) UPenn).
A) Pros.

This part will be subdivided in two sub-parts. NYU’s Pros (1.) and Penn Law’s Pros (2.)

1.) NYU’s Pros.

Firstly, the city. New York is definitely a terrific city to live in. I don’t think that the thrill of living in New York really needs advertising.

Then, the international reputation of NYU. Back to your country (I can’t speak for China of course) everyone (inside and outside the legal sphere) will be impressed of your having done an LL.M at NYU, because of both the reputation of the University and the mere fact to have spent one year in New York (you’ll be considered as hype and cool). LL.M programs have more or less value added and NYU, rightly or wrongly, has a lot of it.

Finally, I think that the faculty (the professors) are really good, especially concerning some specific fields (such as tax or international law).

2.) UPenn’s Pros

Firstly, the city. Of course Philly is not NY. But, still, it’s the fourth metropolis in the US, the second on the East Cost. Historically and culturally, Philly has no reason to be jealous of or shadowed by NY. Suffice it to mention that it’s the city where the US were created, one of (if not the) oldest cities in the country, and that is has many museums (to mention only one, the Barnes collection) and a very active cultural life. My point is that NY is not the only thrilling city to live in the US and that Philly is not Littleton, Arkansas. I have been there (in Philly, not in Littleton) for a couple of weeks last summer and really enjoyed the city. Moreover, Philly in only 1:30 hour driving away from NY (2 hours by Greyhounds). Moreover, life is way cheaper than in New York (my friends live in a 4-floor house, 4 bedrooms, 4 bathrooms : they are only 3 living there and they pay $750 each. For that price in NY, you have a parking lot)

Concerning the international reputation, Penn Law may look a bit disadvantaged, at least outside the legal sphere. Anyone in the street knows the name of NYU (mainly because of the “NY” in it). It is surely not the case as to UPenn. But be sure that UPenn is known and very well regarded inside the legal and business world (because of Wharton, but not only, and because it’s an Ivy league Uni), and that’s what really counts. It’s the 7th Law School in the US (I know rankings are not that useful but we cannot completely ignore them) and the 4th undergraduate college (we don’t care but it is a good indicator of the standing of the University).

Finally, studying at UPenn is really a pleasure (based on my friends’ experience, currently attending the LL.M program). The Professors are excellent, the premises are convenient, the campus is very nice and the size of the program is really a strong advantage : 80-90 students is, for me, a perfect size. Not to small, not to big. Thanks to such a size, LL.M students are mixed up with JD, which can only be advantageous. In fact, and it will be stressed in my conclusion, it’s one of the strongest advantage of UPenn over NYU.

B) Cons

This part will be subdivided in two sub-parts. NYU’s Cons (1.) and Penn Law’s Cons (2.)

1. NYU’s Cons

Firstly, the cost of living is NY. Fun, hype and coolness have a price. NY is 1.5 to twice as expensive as other big metropolis in the States.

Secondly, NYU has no campus. It’s a fact, I don’t really know what difference it makes, except that US universities are known for having campuses and nice campus life. No campus, no campus life.

Last, but not least, the size of the LL.M program and the fact that, mainly because of that size, LLM students are not mixed with JD students is, for me, really problematic. NYU’s LL.M welcomes mas o menos 400 students, which are hermetically kept apart from the other law student. What is the point to go and study US law in the US if it is not to share the courses with US law students.(and vice-versa) Mixing LL.Ms and JDs is a valuable source of intellectual emulation and stimulation. I think it’s too bad that NYU prevents its students (both JDs and LL.Ms) from that. People who have been there all had pretty much the same comments: living there is great but the studies are a bit disappointing.

2. UPenn’s Cons

Apart from the lower international reputation of the city and the university and from the thrill and excitement to live in a city such as New York (I agree, both arguments are quite heavy), I don’t see any serious drawbacks to the Penn Law’s LL.M program.

Conclusion

As I already told, the main drawbacks of NYU’s LL.M are its size and its price implied by living in New York (tuitions are quite similar). I realize that living in New York is so great that one is ready to pay the price for it, but, as a counterpart, I would like to have a more satisfactory LL.M program (such a Columbia’s, for the answer of which I am still waiting for).

I realize that you may find my observations biased and bitter, since I was not admitted to NYU. However, should I have been admitted only to Penn and to NYU, I sincerely think that I would have chosen Penn. Now, it depends on what you expect from your year of study in the US.
Hope this helps.
quote
acm123

What a good post Solomon! Thanks a lot!

What a good post Solomon! Thanks a lot!
quote
Cindy

It is not the first time I read on this board that LLM's at NYU do not take classes with JD's.
However, on the site of NYU, one can read:
" The graduate programs draw particular strength from their close relationship to the J.D. program: graduate students take courses with J.D. students, and the resulting exchange of ideas is beneficial for both groups."
Then I am asking myself if there are wrong ideas circulating about NYU. Or maybe some people have information from alumni that I do not have. Is it not best to trust what is written on the site of NYU?

It is not the first time I read on this board that LLM's at NYU do not take classes with JD's.
However, on the site of NYU, one can read:
" The graduate programs draw particular strength from their close relationship to the J.D. program: graduate students take courses with J.D. students, and the resulting exchange of ideas is beneficial for both groups."
Then I am asking myself if there are wrong ideas circulating about NYU. Or maybe some people have information from alumni that I do not have. Is it not best to trust what is written on the site of NYU?
quote
LenaZ

@Salomon
Here is some facts that support many of the things that you have said. http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2005/03/new_study_of_na.html

Leiter Reports: A Group Blog (Jan. 23-May 31 2006)
New Study of Law Schools with Most National Placement at Top Law Firms

Michael Sullivan, a student at Calvin College, has undertaken the Herculean labor of updating my 2003 study of the law school's with the most national placement at top firms. Mr. Sullivan's new study is here. I have not undertaken to double-check all his work, but he provides the underlying data, and the spot checks make me think Mr. Sullivan has done a careful job.

Here are the top 15 law schools based on success in placing graduates at top firms nationwide; the name of each school is followed by its normalized score, and then its rank in the 2003 study:

1. Harvard University (100) (1)
2. University of Chicago (96) (2)
2. University of Virginia (96) (4)
4. Yale University (93) (3)
5. Stanford University (89) (6)
6. University of Michigan, Ann Arbor (86) (5)
7. Columbia University (82) (7)
7. Duke University (82) (9)
9. New York University (80) (11)
9. University of Pennsylvania (80) (10)
11. Georgetown University (77) (8)
11. University of Texas, Austin (77) (12)
13. Cornell University (76) (15)
14. University of California, Berkeley (73) (16)
15. George Washington University (71) (17)
15. Vanderbilt University (71) (14)

No significant changes here from the 2003 study, except, perhaps, the relatively weak performance by Northwestern, which was 13th in my 2003 study, and falls just outside the top 15 in Mr. Sullivan's study, with a normalized score of 66 (tied with Boston University at 17th, a school I had not studed in 2003).

Be sure, of course, to read with some care the caveats attached to my original study, which apply equally here.

There is more data and detail at Mr. Sullivan's site, which will surely be of value to prospective law students. I hope they will join me in thanking him for undertaking the compilation and analysis of this data. Since there is much talk among students, employers, and academics about which law schools are "national" and which are not, it is useful to have some actual factual basis for such characterizations.

Posted by Brian Leiter on March 03, 2005 at 08:47 AM in Law School Updates | Permalink

@Salomon
Here is some facts that support many of the things that you have said. http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2005/03/new_study_of_na.html

Leiter Reports: A Group Blog (Jan. 23-May 31 2006)
New Study of Law Schools with Most National Placement at Top Law Firms

Michael Sullivan, a student at Calvin College, has undertaken the Herculean labor of updating my 2003 study of the law school's with the most national placement at top firms. Mr. Sullivan's new study is here. I have not undertaken to double-check all his work, but he provides the underlying data, and the spot checks make me think Mr. Sullivan has done a careful job.

Here are the top 15 law schools based on success in placing graduates at top firms nationwide; the name of each school is followed by its normalized score, and then its rank in the 2003 study:

1. Harvard University (100) (1)
2. University of Chicago (96) (2)
2. University of Virginia (96) (4)
4. Yale University (93) (3)
5. Stanford University (89) (6)
6. University of Michigan, Ann Arbor (86) (5)
7. Columbia University (82) (7)
7. Duke University (82) (9)
9. New York University (80) (11)
9. University of Pennsylvania (80) (10)
11. Georgetown University (77) (8)
11. University of Texas, Austin (77) (12)
13. Cornell University (76) (15)
14. University of California, Berkeley (73) (16)
15. George Washington University (71) (17)
15. Vanderbilt University (71) (14)

No significant changes here from the 2003 study, except, perhaps, the relatively weak performance by Northwestern, which was 13th in my 2003 study, and falls just outside the top 15 in Mr. Sullivan's study, with a normalized score of 66 (tied with Boston University at 17th, a school I had not studed in 2003).

Be sure, of course, to read with some care the caveats attached to my original study, which apply equally here.

There is more data and detail at Mr. Sullivan's site, which will surely be of value to prospective law students. I hope they will join me in thanking him for undertaking the compilation and analysis of this data. Since there is much talk among students, employers, and academics about which law schools are "national" and which are not, it is useful to have some actual factual basis for such characterizations.

Posted by Brian Leiter on March 03, 2005 at 08:47 AM in Law School Updates | Permalink
quote
hannenyh

Info from alumni is probably more accurate than their homepages. So what does the alumni say? Being in class only with LLM's doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

About the choice, I would also take into consideration that you may want to take the NY bar and then work in NYC after school, and it is therefore maybe better to study at NYU? Networking... etc.. .

And I have been to Philly several times. It is not a fun city compared to NYC.

Info from alumni is probably more accurate than their homepages. So what does the alumni say? Being in class only with LLM's doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

About the choice, I would also take into consideration that you may want to take the NY bar and then work in NYC after school, and it is therefore maybe better to study at NYU? Networking... etc.. .

And I have been to Philly several times. It is not a fun city compared to NYC.
quote
Cindy

The alumni thing was a guessing of mine.

I do not know why people say that the LLM's and JD's do not take the same courses.

If someone can give me more information on that, I would appreciate. Thanks!

The alumni thing was a guessing of mine.

I do not know why people say that the LLM's and JD's do not take the same courses.

If someone can give me more information on that, I would appreciate. Thanks!
quote
Salomon

Re the New York Bar, Penn's LLMs and NYU's LLMs are equally eligible to take it.

Re the "funness" of the city, I can't say, I never really lived in any of those two cities. I have been there quite often though and Philly appeared really pleasant. Moreover, as I said in my previous post, If you want to have real and genuine NY fun, take a car or a bus on a friday night and 1 hr and 30 minutes, you're in NY....

Re the New York Bar, Penn's LLMs and NYU's LLMs are equally eligible to take it.

Re the "funness" of the city, I can't say, I never really lived in any of those two cities. I have been there quite often though and Philly appeared really pleasant. Moreover, as I said in my previous post, If you want to have real and genuine NY fun, take a car or a bus on a friday night and 1 hr and 30 minutes, you're in NY....
quote
Cindy

Salomon,

Could you please tell me from where you heard that the LLM's and the JD's did not take courses together.

It seems to me that it is a very important point in selecting a law school. I would like to know if it is true or if it is a rumor.

Thank you for your help in this matter.

Salomon,

Could you please tell me from where you heard that the LLM's and the JD's did not take courses together.

It seems to me that it is a very important point in selecting a law school. I would like to know if it is true or if it is a rumor.

Thank you for your help in this matter.
quote
Salomon

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I just talked with one of my colleague who attended NYU two years ago. LL.Ms are not segregated as to the courses the choose and attend.

However, my assertions were not completely false, concerning LLMs and JDs mixing up together, considering the experience of three friends (said colleague and two others) who reported that, de facto, LLMs sticked with LLMs and JDs to JDs, and that there were not so much interraction. For example, I have never heard of a baby born from the love of a JD for an LLM (or vice versa). If that's not a proof.....

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I just talked with one of my colleague who attended NYU two years ago. LL.Ms are not segregated as to the courses the choose and attend.

However, my assertions were not completely false, concerning LLMs and JDs mixing up together, considering the experience of three friends (said colleague and two others) who reported that, de facto, LLMs sticked with LLMs and JDs to JDs, and that there were not so much interraction. For example, I have never heard of a baby born from the love of a JD for an LLM (or vice versa). If that's not a proof.....
quote
Bitsou

If you want to have fun, go to NYU (but most people anyway don't go out as much as you would imagine because they study). If you want to get sth out of your LLM from a personal point of view (unless you're admitted at the tax program at NYU), go to UPenn and take classes both at the Law School and at Wharton. I have friends at UPenn now who are extremely happy (city's developing quickly, nice campus, great classes, small size). I wouldn't have any hesitation as far as I'm concerned.

If you want to have fun, go to NYU (but most people anyway don't go out as much as you would imagine because they study). If you want to get sth out of your LLM from a personal point of view (unless you're admitted at the tax program at NYU), go to UPenn and take classes both at the Law School and at Wharton. I have friends at UPenn now who are extremely happy (city's developing quickly, nice campus, great classes, small size). I wouldn't have any hesitation as far as I'm concerned.
quote
Gevurah

salomon, is it a correct characterization of what you've said if I take it that the relationship between LLMs and JDs is not so close in NYU compared to Penn? If it is not for the law school's policy, is there any kind of well-known antipathy between LLMs and JDs in NYU? BTW, just for kidding, have you heard of a baby born between a JD and an LLM in Penn?

salomon, is it a correct characterization of what you've said if I take it that the relationship between LLMs and JDs is not so close in NYU compared to Penn? If it is not for the law school's policy, is there any kind of well-known antipathy between LLMs and JDs in NYU? BTW, just for kidding, have you heard of a baby born between a JD and an LLM in Penn?
quote
Salomon

Gevurah,

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. But I don't think that NYU JD students are trained are instructed to be antipathic and have a pretentious attidude towards LLM. Nevertheless, and similarly to my pretentious Parisian attitude towards people from outside Paris ("Parisianism"), I think that people from or living in New York might be naturally egotistic and therefor not very kind or nice with aliens.

Re a baby between Penn's LLM and JD, I have no information (on the contrary, knowing two couples in the current LLM class - 1 french, 1 italian - , I would not be surprised to hear happy news in a few months)

Gevurah,

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. But I don't think that NYU JD students are trained are instructed to be antipathic and have a pretentious attidude towards LLM. Nevertheless, and similarly to my pretentious Parisian attitude towards people from outside Paris ("Parisianism"), I think that people from or living in New York might be naturally egotistic and therefor not very kind or nice with aliens.

Re a baby between Penn's LLM and JD, I have no information (on the contrary, knowing two couples in the current LLM class - 1 french, 1 italian - , I would not be surprised to hear happy news in a few months)
quote

wow, Salomon! Awesome!
Your advice is very impressive and useful to me. Many thanks!

To me, study environment is very important. I need campus life. I want to live in better and bigger house but lower price.

Also, I like to study with smaller group and mixing with JDs would be very intreseting! I can also feel that the air in Penn would not be as intensive as in NYU.

More, I would like to study in a more compositive university. Warton is so attractive! Also many other dynamic classrooms are waiting for us.

Last but not least, I dont expect to get a perfect and comform job after graduating. My plan is back to China. Since there are much more opportunities in China than in US. You guys can not imagine unless coming to China.

So, I would like to choose Penn law.

wow, Salomon! Awesome!
Your advice is very impressive and useful to me. Many thanks!

To me, study environment is very important. I need campus life. I want to live in better and bigger house but lower price.

Also, I like to study with smaller group and mixing with JDs would be very intreseting! I can also feel that the air in Penn would not be as intensive as in NYU.

More, I would like to study in a more compositive university. Warton is so attractive! Also many other dynamic classrooms are waiting for us.

Last but not least, I dont expect to get a perfect and comform job after graduating. My plan is back to China. Since there are much more opportunities in China than in US. You guys can not imagine unless coming to China.

So, I would like to choose Penn law.
quote
yueping

I would vote for Penn too

I would vote for Penn too
quote
lawthinker

It is said that Philadelphia has a high crime rate, isn' t it?
Because I will choose to live off-campus, this may be a factor I need to take into account.....
I guess you can save 5000 US dollars if you choose penn, rather than NYU........(the self-funded situation)

It is said that Philadelphia has a high crime rate, isn' t it?
Because I will choose to live off-campus, this may be a factor I need to take into account.....
I guess you can save 5000 US dollars if you choose penn, rather than NYU........(the self-funded situation)
quote
Salomon

It is said that Philadelphia has a high crime rate, isn' t it?
Because I will choose to live off-campus, this may be a factor I need to take into account.....
I guess you can save 5000 US dollars if you choose penn, rather than NYU........(the self-funded situation)


I would say that choosing Penn would make you save more than $5000. As I said somewhere else on this board, you can share a very decent (that's an euphemism, and a big one) house for $700 / month. In NY, to rent a decent (that's not an euphemism)1 BR appartment or to share a decent big flat, you would have to spent $1000 to 1300. The difference times let's say 10 months is therefore between $3000 and $6000 (rarely less, often more). And that's only for the housing expenses. You got to eat, entertain your self, clean your laudry, etc. and everything is more expensive in NY. My point is that NY is a very expensive city (in which I would love to live anyway) and that it would be too bad not to enjoy life in NY because of money issues.

Re crime rate , I never heard that Philly was particularly dangerous (I didn't not noticed when I was there last summer, but it was only a couple of weeks). Of course, it has its nice and wealthy neighborhoods and its popular and badly frequented ones. So has NY.

<blockquote>It is said that Philadelphia has a high crime rate, isn' t it?
Because I will choose to live off-campus, this may be a factor I need to take into account.....
I guess you can save 5000 US dollars if you choose penn, rather than NYU........(the self-funded situation)</blockquote>

I would say that choosing Penn would make you save more than $5000. As I said somewhere else on this board, you can share a very decent (that's an euphemism, and a big one) house for $700 / month. In NY, to rent a decent (that's not an euphemism)1 BR appartment or to share a decent big flat, you would have to spent $1000 to 1300. The difference times let's say 10 months is therefore between $3000 and $6000 (rarely less, often more). And that's only for the housing expenses. You got to eat, entertain your self, clean your laudry, etc. and everything is more expensive in NY. My point is that NY is a very expensive city (in which I would love to live anyway) and that it would be too bad not to enjoy life in NY because of money issues.

Re crime rate , I never heard that Philly was particularly dangerous (I didn't not noticed when I was there last summer, but it was only a couple of weeks). Of course, it has its nice and wealthy neighborhoods and its popular and badly frequented ones. So has NY.
quote
acm123

I've been granted a 25.000 $ Scholarschip at Penn and 10.000 $ conditional Scholarschip at NYU... I am really confussed about which offer accept...

I've been granted a 25.000 $ Scholarschip at Penn and 10.000 $ conditional Scholarschip at NYU... I am really confussed about which offer accept...
quote

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