Perhaps something to do with not being able to understand dutch tax law ;)

thanks for the answer.

I thought first the problem was because of their status in the country (which should not really be due to the Blue Card project). Then you said understanding of the dutch tax law (or did you mean the language proficiency?) , and also mentioned Dutch language.
But why then Malta (I do not mind Malta, by the way )) and Luxembourg for those who found jobs and not Netherlands? Was it because the international taxation niche at the Big4 (for instance) in Netherlands was too competitive those days? or were there fewer offices in Netherlands that were hiring?
Honestly, Leiden is about a degree for me not about Netherlands, so I have no idea how big the Dutch job market is in our field.

By the way, what about the economists and non-lawyers then, that study intl. taxation who's knowledge of the dutch tax law or even legal thinking skills in general are far from those of any lawyer? Are they doing any better than foreign graduates?

Your posts made me think that I perhaps should give it more thought when choosing between Leiden and good US LLM programs in Taxation. The latter at least do open certain doors including those in the EU. They also organize some serious recruitment events for their foreign graduates.
I also haven't yet decided between US taxation plus some courses in US intl taxation vs pure Intl. Taxation. It's another dilemma that follows.

Dear Aleks,

I think you're still very dubious, but on the verge of getting there.

US LLMs in Tax or Intl Tax definitely open more doors for foreigners, compared to EU. Why?

a) Because they allow you to sit for the Bar exam and practice in NY or CA thereafter.
b) Because the marketing of their alumni is the strongest around.

To study Domestic or International taxation?
It all depends on your plans.

Do you plan on staying after graduation or not?
I think this question answers the former.

Good luck!

Hi barmenator,
There is still time to choose. In the US the Intl Tax is mostly the US intl. tax with some courses devoted to treaties and US tax fundamentals. There is also an option to study US Tax with a concentration in Intl Tax. Or simply studying Us Intl Tax. I haven't chosen yet. Working a year after garduation would be great for experience but in a long-term perspective I am looking towards European offices of Big Law and Big4, may be in-house positions in the EU. Therefore I was thinking that may be a European school would be a better choice. I like their curriculum in Leiden (12 months vs 10 in the US) and the fact that there is more than just US intl tax to learn. Plus they offer full tuition scholarships which is quite important for me personally .
What I also like in Leiden LLM is that it can be recognized towards ADIT designation. I also thought may be to sit for the solicitor exam for the foreign lawyers for the UK employers, and NY/CA bar for US depending on where I end up doing my LLM. In my case as a foreign lawyer I can simply do the CA bar without an LLM, so the US LLM for the sake of bar membership is not the decisive factor.

The main concern was the employment opportunities after a European LLM in Tax compared to the US llm. Those Job fairs for the foreign LLMs and tax recruitment events US schools offer are are very promising. I do can not say if any European school can come closer to it, at least from the information they disclose.

By the way, have you read what I posted about the visa situation in EU? I have to disagree with you (in a good way) that EU now is not only for the EU-citizens mobility any more. High qualified foreigners once they find a position have now a good chance to settle without the headache they would have had 10 years ago regarding both work permit/visa and long-term residence.

Hi again, Aleks.

US LLMs on International Tax are indeed US focused. European LLMs on International Tax are EU focused.
Anywhere you go, the focus will be local with a general overview of the international law.

Chances of passing CA bar exam without a US LLM are almost non existing. You may sit for the bar, but that does not guarantee a thing. CA is famous for being the toughest Bar exam stateside.

The same with UK! You may sit for the Bar of England and Wales, but chances w/o a domestic LLM are very low.

Studying an LLM at the Jurisdiction where you intend to practice sounds logic. However, only the US and UK allow you to sit for their Bar exam after graduation from their programs.

I recall you mentioning something about a Blue Card. But, I am not certain of its characteristics. Could you please elaborate on this?

Regards,

I am not arguing here, i am simply trying to stay positive. So far everybody I know from the civil law jurisdictions who tried did pass both English and US bar exams. Some of them did an LLM in the USA indeed, but a specialized one, not the American law for foreigners kind of LLM. I thought first you meant doing an LLM to become eligible to sit for the bar. Anyway, every situation is different. I personally cannot afford paying for an LLM and wasting a year just to prepare for a bar exam when I can prepare on my own and for a reasonable price.

As to the Blue card, you can google the term for more details or check this link https://www.apply.eu/BlueCard/
It is a residence permit type implemented in the EU for few years already. It enables qualified foreigners to work without prior labor market check done by the immigration authorities. Previously they usually had to lookfor domestic candidates that would fit the position and only if no such candidates have applied they would issue a work visa and a work permit to a foreigner. Now there is no such procedure required. Only thing you need is qualification and a job offer that satisfies the conditions (qualification required and average salary). It also leads to a PR after 24 months or even after 18 months if certain conditions are met, whereas previously you would have to wait for years before you become eligible to apply for a PR status in the EU countries. FOr PR they would also require a language proficiency at B1 level in the official language of the state where you apply for the PR.
Time you resided in on country of the EU as BC holder counts towards the PR requirements in the other if you decide to move and change employer and a country.

Hi again, Aleks!

I think staying positive is a good thing. I just wouldn't like you to expect unreal or unlikely things at EU.

I do believe an Indian lawyer might pass a Bar exam at UK or USA, without an LLM. Basically, due to the similarities in their legal system: Common Law.

I do however believe as well, that Continental Europe does have much more barriers to entry for foreign (non EU) lawyers.

Let's suppose you do get the 100% scholarship at Leiden, and that you do become qualified for Blue Card purposes. You would still be at a huge disadvantage vs the rest of the Cohort lawyers, since you may not practice law in Courts.

I know EU seem cheaper than UK-US-AU-NZ, but have a huge downside: there are no Master or Doctor in Law programs that allow you to practice therein. The Anglo-world is much more expensive, but do allow foreign practice.

If you can go to the Anglo-World, try out for the Bar Exam, without spending cash nor time on an LLM, nor have language barriers of any kind, why insist in Continental EU?

Just curious!

Let me answer with a question. Why do you think those Leiden tax graduates from the example above were hired in Malta and Luxembourg where they had no qualification and or right to practice national law in those countries?
I personally believe QLTS exam or NYBar would not harm any resume.

Hi again, Aleks!

I agree that QLTS or NY Bar, even though not required at Continental EU, would not harm at all. In fact, they may enhance your CV.

However, you may need to invest at least 2 more years of study, travel, housing and maybe LLM and Barbri or Kaplan fees. And that is also to be considered.

Tax graduates from the example above were hired in Malta and Luxembourg, but most are from Continental EU and thus allowed to practice law in any Shengen jurisdiction, according to the European Lawyer scheme.

I ask again. Why insist in Continental EU? For the free tuition fees (provided you do manage to get them)?

Not good enough, I would advice. You don't have the language skills nor the admission to practice locally.

Leiden is not the only LLM program, nor holds the only full-ride scholarship.

Try to get a scholarship at US-UK-AUS-NZ. They all have Tax / International Tax LLMs, and a list of scholarships.

Considering your Indian background, it would be a much easier and better match for you.

Good luck!

Hi barmenator, thanks again for sharing your opinion.
Every situation is different like I said, as are people's learning abilities, knowledge of foreign languages, background, family situation and luck after all. Honestly I was thinking of entirely different career path, that did not include competing with national lawyers -generalists who practice national law of their home counties.
Anyway thanks for the ideas and attention to my posts. I am not yet admitted to Leiden, it is an option only, but as I have secured spots in very good US programs i will most likely go to the US school.
Good luck with your plans to you too.

PS: Do not let my Buddhist avatar mislead you, I am actually Russian ))

Hi, Aleks.

I beg you pardon my confusion. I indeed thought you were Indian judging from your avatar.

If you are Russian, I then think EU would probable value your background, since Russia is geographically located between Eastern Europe and Western Asia.

However, forget my US-UK-AU-NZ broad recommendation considering you come from a Civil Law country, and not a Common Law jurisdiction such as India.

Don't get me wrong! Leiden is a great Tax program. As good as NYU, UF or Georgetown in the US. Unfortunately, it does not offer you the option to sit for the Bar exam upon conclusion of the program. That makes its great Academics, but poor Practice.

I have a non-EU citizen friend who managed to find a job in International Tax after an LLM/PhD in WU Austria. However, the PhD in International Tax did give him an edge over the national LLMs when applying as candidate.

You might get lucky with Leiden and get a Blue Card from one of the Big 4. However, what if you don't, and they only hire nationals from EU member countries?

You would still have to spend your savings in an expensive LLM from the US-UK to be able to qualify there. Plus, you would have lost 1 yr of work income, and time is also money considering Opportunity Costs.

You might walk both paths. But, one is a sure bet, and the other just a great gamble.

Best of luck!

You might get lucky with Leiden and get a Blue Card from one of the Big 4. However, what if you don't, and they only hire nationals from EU member countries?

Hi, Aleks.

I still crave reading an LLM in Intl Tax in: 1) Leiden, 2) Vienna or 3) Maastricht.

However, I started reading more about job opportunities and limitations for foreigners vs EU member nationals.

And I came to the conclusion that, in my case at least, being able to practice law in the jurisdiction where I intend to practice, is more important, and thus, goes first than, any specialized LLM.

Therefore, if I decide it is US, I would have to go first for the LLM in American Law, that your friends avoided, to be able to qualify for sitting the NY Bar Exam.

If I decide it is the UK, I would have to enroll in any LLM that allows me to take the specific courses being assessed in the QLTS exam.

Upon admission to practice in any of the above jurisdictions, I'll go for my dream LLM in Tax at EU.

Both routes (Risk loving vs risk averse) are valid to get you down there. You're just jumping off the bungee, and I'm taking my time to strap on a parachute.

Then, go ahead, buckle up and hope for the best!

Please, let us all know how it went for you seeking a job as a foreigner, after you graduate from Leiden.

Best of luck!

PS. BTW, How old are you now?

I totally get where you are coming from with all those concerns. I wish I could afford that much time studying too, that would be the safest way, but I can't.

But don't you already qualify for QLTS / California bar as an Indian attorney? If you have not yet received a call to the bar in India would not it be easier to become licensed in your home jurisdiction and simply do the tests on your own afterwards. QLTS and California allow that.
Unlike me you studied in English your entire life and also common law concepts are very familiar to you, so it should not take you 2 years. You do not need to kick ass, you just need to pass ).
In my situation, although it is more difficult, it is reasonable to do a specialized LLMs and to self-study for bar to reduce the expenses and save time.
Answer to your previous question about "why continental Europe" in this context would be facing less competition for US qualified LLM graduate compared to the US. I doubt a foreign lawyer with an LLM-limited exposure to common law (such as myself) would be able compete with full american JD (unless it is a tax LLM from top school). But in the overseas offices of the US companies (including and especially in his home jurisdiction) this hypothetical lawyer would face much less competition.
Besides that, another major concern for a lucky foreign LLM graduate in the US after graduation would be to find an employer who would bother waiting for a proper visa. Whereas the Blue Card is a default work visa (residence permit) in the EU to be granted to those who have qualification and satisfy the minimum salary requirements, and is much faster to receive (takes 2-3 weeks in some countries to obtain).

From the financial perspective, UK LLM plus QLTS would be cheaper than US LLM. I am considering this option too and waiting for Queen Mary admission.
In my opinion, Leiden plus UK/US license could work together too. If they do , then i'd prefer their curriculum as it has more emphasis on European taxes and because of the extra 3 months of study.

Therefore, if I decide it is US, I would have to go first for the LLM in American Law, that your friends avoided, to be able to qualify for sitting the NY Bar Exam.

Hi, Aleks!

I am not Indian either, LOL! I am mexican, and come from a Civil Law jurisdiction as well. And I'm also a senior lawyer (38 yrs old).

I've checked all those paths you mention.

I am aware it is possible to sit for NY/CA Bar without the LLM in American Law, studying a specialized Tax LLM. However, it is said to be much harder. From what I recall, it is not just a couple of required courses, but 4-6.

Fullbright Scholarship is another good option for LLMs but not for JD. As far as I know, there ir no age requirement.

University of Arizona does not require LSAT, but their ranking does not help job search. Northwestern has great ranking, but I am not sure they waive the LSAT requirement in their JD program for foreign lawyers.

When did you last check this?

Hi barmenator,
I am 38 too. In my country you have to be under 30 to be eligbile for the Fulbright.

I have seen something about accelerated JD in Northwestern it when applying to their LLM. I haven't considered it due to financial reasons though so I do not have more detailed information about this accelerated JD.

For you it sounds ideed very reasonable to prepare for practice in the US. May be later a good field for you could be taxation of cross-border investment ( Miami has an LLM in it)considering your origin and ties you must have to your country etc.
Good luck
!

Hi, Aleks.

I double checked the Northwestern 2-Yr JD program and it does waive LSAT to foreign lawyers.

However, its tuition fee is also out of my financial possibilities. Only if I were US citizen Or PR could I ask for a student loan.

UF program in International Tax is indeed one of my top picks.

Fulbright does not have an age limit in my home country to apply and LLM from UF can be a good choice.

Regards,

I meant University of Miami not the university of Florida. Although it is in the State Florida too. It is hard to argue with that. I believe it is the best school considering the price and at the same time their various very high rankings and also the top recruitment events their students participate in.

That's right, Aleks.

University of Florida at Gainesville is indeed better ranked than University of Miami, according to US News & World Report.

I also consider it to be the best cost-effective LLM in Tax program in the US.

Regards,