LLM in international tax after graduation


Joshf126
Hey everyone!

I'm really interested in studying an international taxation LLM at Leiden or Maastricht because I like tax law and want to work in an international environment (probably in transfer pricing). I have studied two bachelor degrees in Law and Business Administration, and achieved a GPA of about 3.2 . I also speak English (got a 107 on TOEFL ibt), Spanish and Portuguese (both native), and some Japanese (intermediate) and Chinese (high beginner).

My main concern is, do you recommend me to study next year in Holland after graduation (expected for June)? Because people in my country who I asked told me to do first a general taxation LLM there, then work for 2 or 3 years at a law firm or a big 4, and then do another master in international taxation in Leiden. Currently I'm 24 (because in my country doing a double degree takes you 6 years), so I'm not very enthusiastic with the idea of doing 2 masters. What do you think I should do? Follow my professors advice or enroll directly into an international tax LLM abroad? I'm afraid my professors' point of view is limited just to a national scope so I don't know...

Thank you.
Hey everyone!

I'm really interested in studying an international taxation LLM at Leiden or Maastricht because I like tax law and want to work in an international environment (probably in transfer pricing). I have studied two bachelor degrees in Law and Business Administration, and achieved a GPA of about 3.2 . I also speak English (got a 107 on TOEFL ibt), Spanish and Portuguese (both native), and some Japanese (intermediate) and Chinese (high beginner).

My main concern is, do you recommend me to study next year in Holland after graduation (expected for June)? Because people in my country who I asked told me to do first a general taxation LLM there, then work for 2 or 3 years at a law firm or a big 4, and then do another master in international taxation in Leiden. Currently I'm 24 (because in my country doing a double degree takes you 6 years), so I'm not very enthusiastic with the idea of doing 2 masters. What do you think I should do? Follow my professors advice or enroll directly into an international tax LLM abroad? I'm afraid my professors' point of view is limited just to a national scope so I don't know...

Thank you.
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Lukedf
Josh,

I know people will tell you to know what your country requires etc. But I do not see the value of 2 LL.M's and most firms would not see the value either.

You need to a grounding in tax before doing the Adv. LL.M in International Tax Law (Though some people are admitted without it, it is recommended). But 2 masters is a waste of time and money IMO.
Josh,

I know people will tell you to know what your country requires etc. But I do not see the value of 2 LL.M's and most firms would not see the value either.

You need to a grounding in tax before doing the Adv. LL.M in International Tax Law (Though some people are admitted without it, it is recommended). But 2 masters is a waste of time and money IMO.
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Joshf126
Thank you for your reply, Luke. Indeed, i have studied 3 subjects of tax law (2 of them for 4 months and the other one for 1 year, which were among the subjects I had to study at university). I do not have work experience, though, since I'm graduating in June.
Thank you for your reply, Luke. Indeed, i have studied 3 subjects of tax law (2 of them for 4 months and the other one for 1 year, which were among the subjects I had to study at university). I do not have work experience, though, since I'm graduating in June.
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Lukedf
When I started my studies at Leiden, I had work experience, though not in tax. I had studied tax at the undergraduate law level, and had written my dissertation in that area, and found that this background gave me a sufficient place to grow from.

Remember the Leiden program also admits people with accounting and economics backgrounds. In the first couple weeks you can spot the lawyers from the non-lawyers, but after the introductory courses that bring everyone up to speed on theory, that differentiation soon evaporates.

International Tax Law is based on bilateral tax treaties. It is a VERY different way of studying and looking at law than at the undergraduate, theoretical level. As the course is designed to be very practical in nature, it is important to understand the theory of taxation, but the majority of the learning does not really assume prior knowledge.
When I started my studies at Leiden, I had work experience, though not in tax. I had studied tax at the undergraduate law level, and had written my dissertation in that area, and found that this background gave me a sufficient place to grow from.

Remember the Leiden program also admits people with accounting and economics backgrounds. In the first couple weeks you can spot the lawyers from the non-lawyers, but after the introductory courses that bring everyone up to speed on theory, that differentiation soon evaporates.

International Tax Law is based on bilateral tax treaties. It is a VERY different way of studying and looking at law than at the undergraduate, theoretical level. As the course is designed to be very practical in nature, it is important to understand the theory of taxation, but the majority of the learning does not really assume prior knowledge.
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Joshf126
It's good to hear that they assume the students have no prior knowledge in tax law even though I have some. From different posts I have read, I saw you studied both in Leiden and in QMUL, right? Which one would you recommend me for the quality of education and job prospects? I first thought about Leiden but QMUL offers a good opportunity too. The UK might also be better if I want to work in an international law firm or company.
It's good to hear that they assume the students have no prior knowledge in tax law even though I have some. From different posts I have read, I saw you studied both in Leiden and in QMUL, right? Which one would you recommend me for the quality of education and job prospects? I first thought about Leiden but QMUL offers a good opportunity too. The UK might also be better if I want to work in an international law firm or company.
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Lukedf
I have studied at both. Both are excellent schools. QMUL one of the top schools for law in the UK, and Leiden is the top university in the Netherlands, and ranked higher overall than QMUL. But these rankings matter, and they don't. And it's hard to compare "law schools" across borders.

Leiden has an excellent international law reputation. QMUL, from my experience, has more steeped in the British academic tradition, whereas particularly the "adv. LL.M's" at Leiden are geared for professionals. So taking my own anecdotal evidence the two schools might present different experiences. I loved the academic experience at QMUL, and I love now (though at times i hated it) the practical training of the Leiden LL.M.

Leiden from a quality of life perspective is obviously MUCH slower than london. The whole town is like 4 miles across, without so much as one real club, but much much cheaper than London. This may be true of postgrad programs everywhere, but Leiden was very collegial, and my classmates extraordinarily supportive. It was really international too. We had people from Latin America, China, India, Africa, (I am personally from the Caribbean), and of course from around Europe, and also one lady from Russia who was living in the Netherlands.

If you were asking me AT THE TIME OF STUDY if I thought I should have stayed in London, either at QMUL or Kings, I would have said yes. Restrospectively, now that I am in a tax role at EY, and I use my knowledge every day, I would not trade it.
I have studied at both. Both are excellent schools. QMUL one of the top schools for law in the UK, and Leiden is the top university in the Netherlands, and ranked higher overall than QMUL. But these rankings matter, and they don't. And it's hard to compare "law schools" across borders.

Leiden has an excellent international law reputation. QMUL, from my experience, has more steeped in the British academic tradition, whereas particularly the "adv. LL.M's" at Leiden are geared for professionals. So taking my own anecdotal evidence the two schools might present different experiences. I loved the academic experience at QMUL, and I love now (though at times i hated it) the practical training of the Leiden LL.M.

Leiden from a quality of life perspective is obviously MUCH slower than london. The whole town is like 4 miles across, without so much as one real club, but much much cheaper than London. This may be true of postgrad programs everywhere, but Leiden was very collegial, and my classmates extraordinarily supportive. It was really international too. We had people from Latin America, China, India, Africa, (I am personally from the Caribbean), and of course from around Europe, and also one lady from Russia who was living in the Netherlands.

If you were asking me AT THE TIME OF STUDY if I thought I should have stayed in London, either at QMUL or Kings, I would have said yes. Restrospectively, now that I am in a tax role at EY, and I use my knowledge every day, I would not trade it.
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Joshf126
Nice, so both places seem great for studying international taxation. I think i will apply for both universities and consider which one to attend later if I get admitted. Do you think an LLM in Leiden will give me better chances to get a tax role than the one in QMUL? I assume both masters have a practical way of teaching through case study and give you the basic knowledge for working.
Nice, so both places seem great for studying international taxation. I think i will apply for both universities and consider which one to attend later if I get admitted. Do you think an LLM in Leiden will give me better chances to get a tax role than the one in QMUL? I assume both masters have a practical way of teaching through case study and give you the basic knowledge for working.
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Murc
Maastricht's reputation has been growing over the last years and according to some rankings they are even past Leiden. The international tax law program is very popular amongst employers, and if you do a decent job you have a reasonable outlook on a tax job in Luxembourg or at firms like PWC in London. Apparently 80% of the graduates find proper employment shortly after completion of the program
Maastricht's reputation has been growing over the last years and according to some rankings they are even past Leiden. The international tax law program is very popular amongst employers, and if you do a decent job you have a reasonable outlook on a tax job in Luxembourg or at firms like PWC in London. Apparently 80% of the graduates find proper employment shortly after completion of the program
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hello guys,
just read through your conversation and wanna find out,how much does the Lieden or Maastricht program Tax Law cost for international students. Can anyone help me with information on affordable international Tax law programs.
hello guys,
just read through your conversation and wanna find out,how much does the Lieden or Maastricht program Tax Law cost for international students. Can anyone help me with information on affordable international Tax law programs.
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Rosantl
Hello to you all!

I am interested in a good LLM in international tax law in Europe for 2014/2015. I just got admission to Tlburg (LLM in International Business Taxation/Track International Business Tax Law) but I can't tell if it has a good reputation.
I'm also sending my application to Vienna (LLM in international tax law).
What would you recommend to me? Are they equally good programs?
Thank you
Hello to you all!

I am interested in a good LLM in international tax law in Europe for 2014/2015. I just got admission to Tlburg (LLM in International Business Taxation/Track International Business Tax Law) but I can't tell if it has a good reputation.
I'm also sending my application to Vienna (LLM in international tax law).
What would you recommend to me? Are they equally good programs?
Thank you
quote
JonathanV
Hi everyone,

I would like to reply to the post from Rosantl.
I was in the same situation than you when I had to chose a Master in International Taxation.

For sure Tilburg is not very well known worldwide. However, in the course of my application for jobs in the United Kingdom, Switzerland, Luxembourg and other countries I was glad that Human resources, recruiters looking for tax advisors do know this Master and have a good opinion of it.

If you are willing to join a Big Four or a Law Firm, partners and recruiters do know the LLM in International Business Taxation of Tilburg uni . I believe it is an important point to know.

Best regards,
Jo
Hi everyone,

I would like to reply to the post from Rosantl.
I was in the same situation than you when I had to chose a Master in International Taxation.

For sure Tilburg is not very well known worldwide. However, in the course of my application for jobs in the United Kingdom, Switzerland, Luxembourg and other countries I was glad that Human resources, recruiters looking for tax advisors do know this Master and have a good opinion of it.

If you are willing to join a Big Four or a Law Firm, partners and recruiters do know the LLM in International Business Taxation of Tilburg uni . I believe it is an important point to know.

Best regards,
Jo
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barmenator
People,

I would like to study a top LLM in International Tax program in Europe (in English language).

It seems Leiden, Vienna and Maastricht are the 3 preeminent choices.

Tuition fees and geographical location are not important.

Are there any substantial differences in Faculty, lectures, classes, or teaching method among the 3?

Which degree is better valued/known by employers and HR?

Which has better job placement upon graduation in Big4, BigLaw, or Magic Circle?

Which degree is most recognized by the Academia for pursuing PhD?

Any input will be greatly appreciated!
People,

I would like to study a top LLM in International Tax program in Europe (in English language).

It seems Leiden, Vienna and Maastricht are the 3 preeminent choices.

Tuition fees and geographical location are not important.

Are there any substantial differences in Faculty, lectures, classes, or teaching method among the 3?

Which degree is better valued/known by employers and HR?

Which has better job placement upon graduation in Big4, BigLaw, or Magic Circle?

Which degree is most recognized by the Academia for pursuing PhD?

Any input will be greatly appreciated!
quote
skli
Following up on the main conversation, are their job opportunities in Netherlands after LLM in International tax from Leiden, if one goes for this course directly after graduation?
Following up on the main conversation, are their job opportunities in Netherlands after LLM in International tax from Leiden, if one goes for this course directly after graduation?
quote
Lukedf
If you are not an EU Citizen and/or speak Dutch, then it's hard to make the case for you to be in the Netherlands. If you are not an EU Citizen but have high English proficiency then Malta and Luxembourg are the easiest options within Europe. Depending on your level of experience, UK may be a possibility as well.
If you are not an EU Citizen and/or speak Dutch, then it's hard to make the case for you to be in the Netherlands. If you are not an EU Citizen but have high English proficiency then Malta and Luxembourg are the easiest options within Europe. Depending on your level of experience, UK may be a possibility as well.
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skli
Thanks for replying. I am from India and have professional English Proficiency. I have some examples of alumni of ITC Leiden for this program from India, who are working in Netherlands (and came for the course directly after graduation with no prior work ex.) I just wanted to know if thats few in many case, or the overall placements of ITC leiden is high?
Thanks for replying. I am from India and have professional English Proficiency. I have some examples of alumni of ITC Leiden for this program from India, who are working in Netherlands (and came for the course directly after graduation with no prior work ex.) I just wanted to know if thats few in many case, or the overall placements of ITC leiden is high?
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Lukedf
That was not the experience from my year. Non-EU citizens stayed on to work at the University or further their studies, and many worked during their studies as interns in the Netherlands or received placements in research organizations. I don't know of any who stayed on in the Netherlands, as non-EU citizens, to work in a major tax practice in the Netherlands.

I know many, virtually all, had jobs. Some of these jobs were back home (or their employers had sponsored their studies), and others went on primarily to Luxembourg and Malta.

For sure it's a great LL.M... not a Dutch passport :)
That was not the experience from my year. Non-EU citizens stayed on to work at the University or further their studies, and many worked during their studies as interns in the Netherlands or received placements in research organizations. I don't know of any who stayed on in the Netherlands, as non-EU citizens, to work in a major tax practice in the Netherlands.

I know many, virtually all, had jobs. Some of these jobs were back home (or their employers had sponsored their studies), and others went on primarily to Luxembourg and Malta.

For sure it's a great LL.M... not a Dutch passport :)
quote
tushaar
Hi,

My first post here. Do you know of any Indian students (non EU) who managed to find employment in the EU after this LLM? If yes, what type of employment? Big four, law firms, policy think tanks?

Generally, if you (or anyone) could comment on the prospects of non EU individuals to be able to make a career in the EU post this degree, that would be great. I was also evaluating the Vienna International Taxation LLM, so if you (again, or anyone) have any information on job prospects after the degree, even better.

I apologize if I seem to be demanding a lot of info. One does need to know as much as possible before taking decision :)

Thank you so much.
Hi,

My first post here. Do you know of any Indian students (non EU) who managed to find employment in the EU after this LLM? If yes, what type of employment? Big four, law firms, policy think tanks?

Generally, if you (or anyone) could comment on the prospects of non EU individuals to be able to make a career in the EU post this degree, that would be great. I was also evaluating the Vienna International Taxation LLM, so if you (again, or anyone) have any information on job prospects after the degree, even better.

I apologize if I seem to be demanding a lot of info. One does need to know as much as possible before taking decision :)

Thank you so much.
quote
barmenator
I must say, I totally agree with Lukedf.

A question specifically regarding Indian alumni, seems solely Immigration-related.

Your best choice would be to contact a certified inmigration lawyer, and ask him such specific non-academic questions.

No LLM itself does not guarantee a passport or a job.

It is usually a combination of academic, marketing, and immigration knowledge, what might do the trick.

Most employers recruit skills not original citizenship. However, if non-EU your chances are very low.

Free movement of people and goods in the EU is exclusively meant for and designed by EU members.
I must say, I totally agree with Lukedf.

A question specifically regarding Indian alumni, seems solely Immigration-related.

Your best choice would be to contact a certified inmigration lawyer, and ask him such specific non-academic questions.

No LLM itself does not guarantee a passport or a job.

It is usually a combination of academic, marketing, and immigration knowledge, what might do the trick.

Most employers recruit skills not original citizenship. However, if non-EU your chances are very low.

Free movement of people and goods in the EU is exclusively meant for and designed by EU members.
quote
Lukedf
@tushaar Yes. I know of non-EU candidates who went on to Big 4 practices in Malta and Luxembourg. This was in a bad job market so, maybe prospects have improved.

There are also high-end boutique firms who specialize in transfer pricing who recruit from the program, but you may be less attractive to these firms in the Int. Tax LLM now that the University offers an entire degree in TP. Tax-only practices who compete on the lower-end of the Big 4 market space (but who do not offer other audit and advisory services) also recruited from the program.
@tushaar Yes. I know of non-EU candidates who went on to Big 4 practices in Malta and Luxembourg. This was in a bad job market so, maybe prospects have improved.

There are also high-end boutique firms who specialize in transfer pricing who recruit from the program, but you may be less attractive to these firms in the Int. Tax LLM now that the University offers an entire degree in TP. Tax-only practices who compete on the lower-end of the Big 4 market space (but who do not offer other audit and advisory services) also recruited from the program.
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AleksLLM
Hi Lukedf,
Thanks for sharing your experience. The only thing I do not quite understand is why your non-EU peers have had problem finding decent jobs in Netherlands. How long has it been since you graduated if you do not mind sharing? Was this before 2009? The reason for asking is that the Blue Card residence permit has been around for some time in the EU. And now there should be no special labour market check required , meaning there must be no competition between locals and foreigners for a position effecting visa issuance. Now a simplified procedure of employment in general should be applied, moreover, leading to permanent residence status in a short time 18-24 months. But as an EU national you of course would not need to know the procedure foreigners go through in detail, I suppose. Therefore I am wondering when did you graduate it. And if it was after 2009, would there be any other reasons that could have affected their employment in Netherlands, what do you think?

Also, what do you think, would a solicitor status in England and Wales improve chances for Magic Circle law firms etc.?
Hi Lukedf,
Thanks for sharing your experience. The only thing I do not quite understand is why your non-EU peers have had problem finding decent jobs in Netherlands. How long has it been since you graduated if you do not mind sharing? Was this before 2009? The reason for asking is that the Blue Card residence permit has been around for some time in the EU. And now there should be no special labour market check required , meaning there must be no competition between locals and foreigners for a position effecting visa issuance. Now a simplified procedure of employment in general should be applied, moreover, leading to permanent residence status in a short time 18-24 months. But as an EU national you of course would not need to know the procedure foreigners go through in detail, I suppose. Therefore I am wondering when did you graduate it. And if it was after 2009, would there be any other reasons that could have affected their employment in Netherlands, what do you think?

Also, what do you think, would a solicitor status in England and Wales improve chances for Magic Circle law firms etc.?
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