Beware of French LLM program--they are not real Master degree program!!!


llmfrance
As one poster made a remarkably insightful and correct observations about some LLM programs offered in France. I would like to chip in my two cents.

See the said poster's observations here:

http://www.llm-guide.com/board/157912

The most important point is that if you do an LLM program( not formally offered as either a M1 or M2 program), you are not undertaking a recognized master degree program in France. LLM is not a master degree program in France. Simply put, universities can't award their own degrees under French regulatory framework.

Some French universities exploited a loophole about terminology to confuse applicants. When we see the abbreviation LLM, we generally believe this stands for Master of Laws--this is absolutely wrong in French context. Some French universities are using questionable practices to confuse applicants/consumers by promoting their programs as LLM, as a matter of fact, they are only offering you a university diploma which provide a course of study called LLM course--but this is not a master of laws degree. This is like offering you a PhD course, but you are not doing a Doctor of Philosophy degree, you just did a course we named it as PhD in order to confuse consumers.

In a nutshell, if they charge like Euro 10,000 or more for an LLM program which is not a real master degree, you should be correctly informed in advance. After completing such a program, you don't receive a master degree. If your prior degree is LLB, your highest academic qualification is still an undergraduate degree. This is a substantial disadvantage compared with genuine, legitimate LLMs offered in other countries.

I hope people who are considering French LLM program should look into this and consider its full implications before making an informed decision. If a French university promotes an LLM program, but offers to award you either a M1 or M2--that's legitimate and above-abroad practice. You should jump at this opportunity if you desire to do your graduate studies in Law in France.
As one poster made a remarkably insightful and correct observations about some LLM programs offered in France. I would like to chip in my two cents.

See the said poster's observations here:

http://www.llm-guide.com/board/157912

The most important point is that if you do an LLM program( not formally offered as either a M1 or M2 program), you are not undertaking a recognized master degree program in France. LLM is not a master degree program in France. Simply put, universities can't award their own degrees under French regulatory framework.

Some French universities exploited a loophole about terminology to confuse applicants. When we see the abbreviation LLM, we generally believe this stands for Master of Laws--this is absolutely wrong in French context. Some French universities are using questionable practices to confuse applicants/consumers by promoting their programs as LLM, as a matter of fact, they are only offering you a university diploma which provide a course of study called LLM course--but this is not a master of laws degree. This is like offering you a PhD course, but you are not doing a Doctor of Philosophy degree, you just did a course we named it as PhD in order to confuse consumers.

In a nutshell, if they charge like Euro 10,000 or more for an LLM program which is not a real master degree, you should be correctly informed in advance. After completing such a program, you don't receive a master degree. If your prior degree is LLB, your highest academic qualification is still an undergraduate degree. This is a substantial disadvantage compared with genuine, legitimate LLMs offered in other countries.

I hope people who are considering French LLM program should look into this and consider its full implications before making an informed decision. If a French university promotes an LLM program, but offers to award you either a M1 or M2--that's legitimate and above-abroad practice. You should jump at this opportunity if you desire to do your graduate studies in Law in France.
quote
flori
Hm, what a coincidence - the two posters bashing the French LLM programs joined at exactly the same time ;-)
Bye
flori
Hm, what a coincidence - the two posters bashing the French LLM programs joined at exactly the same time ;-)
Bye
flori
quote
llmfrance
Indeed, my follow-up post was prompted by the initial poster--but I don't know him/her. I take issue with your suggestion that we are "bashing the French LLM programs." These two posts are objective presentation of factual information about perceived misleading promotion of some LLM programs by French universities.

You can look into this matter on your own--the legal basis for the award of the so called "LLM" title is this provision in French Educational Act--it could not be sufficiently underlined that this provision only empowered universities to grant a diploma, but not awarding of academic degrees:

" l'article L.613-2 du Code de l'éducation : "Les établissements peuvent aussi organiser, sous leur responsabilité, des formations conduisant à des diplômes qui leur sont propres ou préparant à des examens ou des concours."

The award of French master degree is regulated by this Act, it is manifest by perusing this legislation that the so called "LLM" is not a master degree in France:

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000000561845&categorieLien=cid

I would warmly welcome French LLM program admissions officer(those which do not award M1 or M2 to students upon completion of their LLM studies to come forward to set the record straight.

Hm, what a coincidence - the two posters bashing the French LLM programs joined at exactly the same time ;-)
Bye
flori
Indeed, my follow-up post was prompted by the initial poster--but I don't know him/her. I take issue with your suggestion that we are "bashing the French LLM programs." These two posts are objective presentation of factual information about perceived misleading promotion of some LLM programs by French universities.

You can look into this matter on your own--the legal basis for the award of the so called "LLM" title is this provision in French Educational Act--it could not be sufficiently underlined that this provision only empowered universities to grant a diploma, but not awarding of academic degrees:

" l'article L.613-2 du Code de l'éducation : "Les établissements peuvent aussi organiser, sous leur responsabilité, des formations conduisant à des diplômes qui leur sont propres ou préparant à des examens ou des concours."

The award of French master degree is regulated by this Act, it is manifest by perusing this legislation that the so called "LLM" is not a master degree in France:

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000000561845&categorieLien=cid

I would warmly welcome French LLM program admissions officer(those which do not award M1 or M2 to students upon completion of their LLM studies to come forward to set the record straight.

<blockquote>Hm, what a coincidence - the two posters bashing the French LLM programs joined at exactly the same time ;-)
Bye
flori</blockquote>
quote
flori
Hello llmfrance,
thanks for the additional information.
I am more than willing to look into the matter on my own -> Could you point us to some examples of misleading promotion?

Thanks and best greetings
flori
Hello llmfrance,
thanks for the additional information.
I am more than willing to look into the matter on my own -> Could you point us to some examples of misleading promotion?

Thanks and best greetings
flori
quote
llmfrance
Hello,

It does not require great efforts to find textbook examples of misleading promotion:

http://www.sorbonne-assas-ils.org/ll-m/

"The LL.M. (Legum Magister Master in Laws) in International Business Law "

http://idc.u-paris2.fr/formations/llm-de-droit-des-affaires-des-pays-arabes

"D​escription du LL.M (Master of Laws)"

http://www.univ-paris1.fr/diplomes/llm/

"Le LLM (Legum Magister) de droit français et de droit européen est un diplôme de niveau troisième cycle de l'Université Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne destiné à deux catégories de juristes étrangers..."

If you hold yourself out as offering LLM or Master of Laws program, you shall award candidates who complete the program a real Master degree!

Hello llmfrance,
thanks for the additional information.
I am more than willing to look into the matter on my own -> Could you point us to some examples of misleading promotion?

Thanks and best greetings
flori
Hello,

It does not require great efforts to find textbook examples of misleading promotion:

http://www.sorbonne-assas-ils.org/ll-m/

"The LL.M. (Legum Magister – Master in Laws) in International Business Law "

http://idc.u-paris2.fr/formations/llm-de-droit-des-affaires-des-pays-arabes

"D&#8203;escription du LL.M (Master of Laws)"

http://www.univ-paris1.fr/diplomes/llm/

"Le LLM (Legum Magister) de droit français et de droit européen est un diplôme de niveau troisième cycle de l'Université Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne destiné à deux catégories de juristes étrangers..."

If you hold yourself out as offering LLM or Master of Laws program, you shall award candidates who complete the program a real Master degree!

<blockquote>Hello llmfrance,
thanks for the additional information.
I am more than willing to look into the matter on my own -> Could you point us to some examples of misleading promotion?

Thanks and best greetings
flori</blockquote>
quote
flori
Well,
I think that the description offered by
http://www.univ-paris1.fr/fileadmin/diplome_07UF/plaquette_master_llm_web_2015.pdf
is pretty clear: "Students who successfully pass the required examinations will receive at the end of year the LL.M. degree (private degree) from the university of Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne."
Alternatively in French: "La délivrance du Diplôme dUniversité équivalent à un niveau troisième cycle par luniversité de Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne est liée à la réussite aux examens."

--> Textbook example of misleading promotion?
Really? They are pretty clear about what is on offer...

Bye
flori
Well,
I think that the description offered by
http://www.univ-paris1.fr/fileadmin/diplome_07UF/plaquette_master_llm_web_2015.pdf
is pretty clear: "Students who successfully pass the required examinations will receive at the end of year the LL.M. degree (private degree) from the university of Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne."
Alternatively in French: "La délivrance du Diplôme d’Université équivalent à un niveau troisième cycle par l’université de Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne est liée à la réussite aux examens."

--> Textbook example of misleading promotion?
Really? They are pretty clear about what is on offer...

Bye
flori
quote
llmfrance
I beg to differ. I hope you will clarify two points,
1) What does LLM stand for?
2)Is the degree awarded by the said University a genuine LLM degree, even if a "private" one in your word? Alternatively, are they empowered to award their own master degree?

I hope the basics of contractual interpretation will come handy in your analysis of this case.

I opine it is beyond dispute that when an academic institution promises to award you an LLM degree upon completion of your studies, you justifiably deserve to receive a real Master degree in the end. Otherwise, please advertise your program in an above-board and non-misleading manner-- tell applicants that you are joining a Diplôme duniversité (DU) program in a particular field of legal studies. Please don't try to mislead students with a confusing,incorrect label of LL.M-- which signifies an unmistakable promise of joining a Master of Laws program.

Well,
I think that the description offered by
http://www.univ-paris1.fr/fileadmin/diplome_07UF/plaquette_master_llm_web_2015.pdf
is pretty clear: "Students who successfully pass the required examinations will receive at the end of year the LL.M. degree (private degree) from the university of Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne."
Alternatively in French: "La délivrance du Diplôme dUniversité équivalent à un niveau troisième cycle par luniversité de Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne est liée à la réussite aux examens."

--> Textbook example of misleading promotion?
Really? They are pretty clear about what is on offer...

Bye
flori
I beg to differ. I hope you will clarify two points,
1) What does LLM stand for?
2)Is the degree awarded by the said University a genuine LLM degree, even if a "private" one in your word? Alternatively, are they empowered to award their own master degree?

I hope the basics of contractual interpretation will come handy in your analysis of this case.

I opine it is beyond dispute that when an academic institution promises to award you an LLM degree upon completion of your studies, you justifiably deserve to receive a real Master degree in the end. Otherwise, please advertise your program in an above-board and non-misleading manner-- tell applicants that you are joining a Diplôme d’université (DU) program in a particular field of legal studies. Please don't try to mislead students with a confusing,incorrect label of LL.M-- which signifies an unmistakable promise of joining a Master of Laws program.

<blockquote>Well,
I think that the description offered by
http://www.univ-paris1.fr/fileadmin/diplome_07UF/plaquette_master_llm_web_2015.pdf
is pretty clear: "Students who successfully pass the required examinations will receive at the end of year the LL.M. degree (private degree) from the university of Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne."
Alternatively in French: "La délivrance du Diplôme d’Université équivalent à un niveau troisième cycle par l’université de Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne est liée à la réussite aux examens."

--> Textbook example of misleading promotion?
Really? They are pretty clear about what is on offer...

Bye
flori</blockquote>
quote
flori
Hello,

I beg to differ. I hope you will clarify two points,
(...)
I hope the basics of contractual interpretation will come handy in your analysis of this case.


Well, the quoted brochure is rather clear and to cut the whole "you will clarify... basics of contractual intepretation.."-thing short:
No, I don't think they need a "This is not a M1 or M2"-sticker on the brochure or on the contract.

But: In the end it, if you are so sure about the legal situation -> Why don't you sue them? This case will certainly be a big one.. Systematically misleading promotion of DU-programs as...

Bye
Hello,

<blockquote>I beg to differ. I hope you will clarify two points,
(...)
I hope the basics of contractual interpretation will come handy in your analysis of this case.
</blockquote>

Well, the quoted brochure is rather clear and to cut the whole "you will clarify... basics of contractual intepretation.."-thing short:
No, I don't think they need a "This is not a M1 or M2"-sticker on the brochure or on the contract.

But: In the end it, if you are so sure about the legal situation -> Why don't you sue them? This case will certainly be a big one.. Systematically misleading promotion of DU-programs as...

Bye
quote
llmfrance
Hello,

I found your way of analysis intriguing.
Unfortunately, you are ducking my core questions and seem to be willfully neglectful of important words and the context of Paris I's promotional message:

Well, it is unnecessary to state clearly that "This is not a M1 or M2" as you described, however, it is absolutely necessary as a matter of fair dealing and consumer protection law not to state this is "Le LLM (Legum Magister)"-- in another word, you shall not state this is "Legum Magister"--the fancy Latin term for Master of Laws, if you are not prepared to hand out a recognized Master degree.

Ciao.


Hello,

I beg to differ. I hope you will clarify two points,
(...)
I hope the basics of contractual interpretation will come handy in your analysis of this case.


Well, the quoted brochure is rather clear and to cut the whole "you will clarify... basics of contractual intepretation.."-thing short:
No, I don't think they need a "This is not a M1 or M2"-sticker on the brochure or on the contract.

But: In the end it, if you are so sure about the legal situation -> Why don't you sue them? This case will certainly be a big one.. Systematically misleading promotion of DU-programs as...

Bye
Hello,

I found your way of analysis intriguing.
Unfortunately, you are ducking my core questions and seem to be willfully neglectful of important words and the context of Paris I's promotional message:

Well, it is unnecessary to state clearly that "This is not a M1 or M2" as you described, however, it is absolutely necessary as a matter of fair dealing and consumer protection law not to state this is "Le LLM (Legum Magister)"-- in another word, you shall not state this is "Legum Magister"--the fancy Latin term for Master of Laws, if you are not prepared to hand out a recognized Master degree.

Ciao.


<blockquote>Hello,

<blockquote>I beg to differ. I hope you will clarify two points,
(...)
I hope the basics of contractual interpretation will come handy in your analysis of this case.
</blockquote>

Well, the quoted brochure is rather clear and to cut the whole "you will clarify... basics of contractual intepretation.."-thing short:
No, I don't think they need a "This is not a M1 or M2"-sticker on the brochure or on the contract.

But: In the end it, if you are so sure about the legal situation -> Why don't you sue them? This case will certainly be a big one.. Systematically misleading promotion of DU-programs as...

Bye</blockquote>
quote
nbcjr
This thread is very useful, the french system is not very clear for those that are not from europe. Are you able to provide examples of "real" french master programs?
This thread is very useful, the french system is not very clear for those that are not from europe. Are you able to provide examples of "real" french master programs?
quote
llmfrance
Ask any program of interest to you this simple question--do you award M1 or M2 degree after completion of the master of laws program.

Look at this listing, they indicate that will hand out M1 or M2 degree to people who complete their LLM program.

http://www.llm-guide.com/university/836/universite-toulouse-1-capitole


This thread is very useful, the french system is not very clear for those that are not from europe. Are you able to provide examples of "real" french master programs?
Ask any program of interest to you this simple question--do you award M1 or M2 degree after completion of the master of laws program.

Look at this listing, they indicate that will hand out M1 or M2 degree to people who complete their LLM program.

http://www.llm-guide.com/university/836/universite-toulouse-1-capitole




<blockquote>This thread is very useful, the french system is not very clear for those that are not from europe. Are you able to provide examples of "real" french master programs?</blockquote>
quote
SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION AND STOP DANCING AROUND IT!!!!!
SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION AND STOP DANCING AROUND IT!!!!!

quote
flori
SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION AND STOP DANCING AROUND IT!!!!!



Certainly, just a few examples from Montpellier (They have tons of real master programs and so do other French law schools):
http://formations.umontpellier.fr/fr/formations/droit-economie-gestion-DEG/master-lmd-XB/master-2-mention-droit-de-l-economie-parcours-droit-prive-economique-program-fruai0342321npri766uh97.html

http://formations.umontpellier.fr/fr/formations/droit-economie-gestion-DEG/master-lmd-XB/master-2-mention-droit-de-l-entreprise-parcours-droit-du-commerce-international-program-fruai0342321nprhnesahop.html

http://formations.umontpellier.fr/fr/formations/droit-economie-gestion-DEG/master-lmd-XB/master-1-droit-prive-program-fruai0342321nprhnesbb30.html

Bye
flori
[quote]SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION AND STOP DANCING AROUND IT!!!!!

[/quote]

Certainly, just a few examples from Montpellier (They have tons of real master programs and so do other French law schools):
http://formations.umontpellier.fr/fr/formations/droit-economie-gestion-DEG/master-lmd-XB/master-2-mention-droit-de-l-economie-parcours-droit-prive-economique-program-fruai0342321npri766uh97.html

http://formations.umontpellier.fr/fr/formations/droit-economie-gestion-DEG/master-lmd-XB/master-2-mention-droit-de-l-entreprise-parcours-droit-du-commerce-international-program-fruai0342321nprhnesahop.html

http://formations.umontpellier.fr/fr/formations/droit-economie-gestion-DEG/master-lmd-XB/master-1-droit-prive-program-fruai0342321nprhnesbb30.html

Bye
flori
quote
nbcjr
Does anyone knows if this double LLM Sorbonne -QMUL awards a real M2 or M1 ?

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/postgraduate/taught/coursefinder/courses/178781.html
Does anyone knows if this double LLM Sorbonne -QMUL awards a real M2 or M1 ?

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/postgraduate/taught/coursefinder/courses/178781.html
quote
llmfrance
It appears to me they are only awarding university diploma, not M1 or M1, so in theory, they are not handing out a real Master degree for this double degree program as far as Paris I is concerned.

Does anyone knows if this double LLM Sorbonne -QMUL awards a real M2 or M1 ?

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/postgraduate/taught/coursefinder/courses/178781.html[/quote]

[Edited by llmfrance on Aug 02, 2016]

It appears to me they are only awarding university diploma, not M1 or M1, so in theory, they are not handing out a real Master degree for this double degree program as far as Paris I is concerned.

[quote]Does anyone knows if this double LLM Sorbonne -QMUL awards a real M2 or M1 ?

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/postgraduate/taught/coursefinder/courses/178781.html[/quote]
quote
Hello. I have a query related to this issue that I've been wanting to ask since quite a long time: I'm particularly interested to know what is the degree that this program offers, as there is no clue provided on their website. http://www.sciencespo.fr/ecole-de-droit/en/content/master-economic-law

Further question, can the degree from the kind of programs you were mentioning be used to take up doctoral study that actually require a master?

Thank you.
Hello. I have a query related to this issue that I've been wanting to ask since quite a long time: I'm particularly interested to know what is the degree that this program offers, as there is no clue provided on their website. http://www.sciencespo.fr/ecole-de-droit/en/content/master-economic-law

Further question, can the degree from the kind of programs you were mentioning be used to take up doctoral study that actually require a master?

Thank you.
quote
No, a French LL.M. diploma (except for the ones that offer a Master I or II equivalence) cannot be used to take up doctoral study anywhere in the world.
No, a French LL.M. diploma (except for the ones that offer a Master I or II equivalence) cannot be used to take up doctoral study anywhere in the world.
quote
llmfrance
The one offered by Sciences Po is M2, of course, this degree would qualify you for progression to a doctoral program.

Hello. I have a query related to this issue that I've been wanting to ask since quite a long time: I'm particularly interested to know what is the degree that this program offers, as there is no clue provided on their website. http://www.sciencespo.fr/ecole-de-droit/en/content/master-economic-law

Further question, can the degree from the kind of programs you were mentioning be used to take up doctoral study that actually require a master?

Thank you.
The one offered by Sciences Po is M2, of course, this degree would qualify you for progression to a doctoral program.

[quote]Hello. I have a query related to this issue that I've been wanting to ask since quite a long time: I'm particularly interested to know what is the degree that this program offers, as there is no clue provided on their website. http://www.sciencespo.fr/ecole-de-droit/en/content/master-economic-law

Further question, can the degree from the kind of programs you were mentioning be used to take up doctoral study that actually require a master?

Thank you.[/quote]
quote
The one offered by Sciences Po is M2, of course, this degree would qualify you for progression to a doctoral program.


Would you kindly show me in which part of this website http://www.sciencespo.fr/ecole-de-droit/en/content/master-economic-law (that is for the Master in Economic Law) we can see that the program is an M2 program. Second question is, will there be any degree if I take up this program? And if the answer is positive, what will the degree be? Tried to find this information on the website and linkedin of the alumni but haven't find anything so far. Thank you very much!
[quote]The one offered by Sciences Po is M2, of course, this degree would qualify you for progression to a doctoral program.
[/quote]

Would you kindly show me in which part of this website http://www.sciencespo.fr/ecole-de-droit/en/content/master-economic-law (that is for the Master in Economic Law) we can see that the program is an M2 program. Second question is, will there be any degree if I take up this program? And if the answer is positive, what will the degree be? Tried to find this information on the website and linkedin of the alumni but haven't find anything so far. Thank you very much!
quote
N G
I am a French citizen, bilingual French and English, and I have completed all my education in England, including a bachelor of Law (LLB) at City, University of London. In addition to possibly qualifying as an English lawyer (solicitor), I would like to qualify as a French lawyer.

My research relating to qualifying as a French lawyer has led to the conclusion that I have to first complete a Master 1, to meet the requirements of entry to the Ecole de Formation du Barreau. However, I cannot find a Master 1 in France, which stipulates the possibily to enter the M1 programme with an LLB in English Law.

The only programme that I have found is the dual programme master 1 / LL.M International Business Law, offered by Lyon Catholic University in partnership with City, University of London. But, I cannot find much information about the reputation and prospects of the programme, beside the information available on the website. The course is also not featured on the website of City, University of London, which leaves me concerned. Can you share your thoughts about the course or experience?

http://www.ucly.fr/en/ll-m-in-international-business-law-master-1-in-partnership-with-the-state-university-lumiere-lyon-2--165080.kjsp

Alternatively, please advise me on the best proceeding course of action, considering my qualifications and objective to become a French lawyer. I am not a qualified English lawyer.

Thank you for your help!
I am a French citizen, bilingual French and English, and I have completed all my education in England, including a bachelor of Law (LLB) at City, University of London. In addition to possibly qualifying as an English lawyer (solicitor), I would like to qualify as a French lawyer.

My research relating to qualifying as a French lawyer has led to the conclusion that I have to first complete a Master 1, to meet the requirements of entry to the Ecole de Formation du Barreau. However, I cannot find a Master 1 in France, which stipulates the possibily to enter the M1 programme with an LLB in English Law.

The only programme that I have found is the dual programme master 1 / LL.M International Business Law, offered by Lyon Catholic University in partnership with City, University of London. But, I cannot find much information about the reputation and prospects of the programme, beside the information available on the website. The course is also not featured on the website of City, University of London, which leaves me concerned. Can you share your thoughts about the course or experience?

http://www.ucly.fr/en/ll-m-in-international-business-law-master-1-in-partnership-with-the-state-university-lumiere-lyon-2--165080.kjsp

Alternatively, please advise me on the best proceeding course of action, considering my qualifications and objective to become a French lawyer. I am not a qualified English lawyer.

Thank you for your help!
quote

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