NYU versus Columbia


nicolas_a

I've mostly been looking at tax llm figures (nyu) but from what i've read, direct hiring of international students by ny base firmed is almost non existant this year... however, some global firms do still hire associates in their home countries offices and make them start in ny

the cruel thing is that the dawnfall could be even worse for domestic students...

I've mostly been looking at tax llm figures (nyu) but from what i've read, direct hiring of international students by ny base firmed is almost non existant this year... however, some global firms do still hire associates in their home countries offices and make them start in ny

the cruel thing is that the dawnfall could be even worse for domestic students...
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DMM

I know some of you might think this is futile, but in making a choice between the 2 schools, I want to look at extra-curricular things. Since they are pretty much as good, and going to Columbia will not ensure me a job more than NYU especially in the current market, I want to know if one has a better atmosphere than the other one. Will Columbia not have a much more competitive and less friendly atmosphere than NYU? NYU just gives me the impression to be more "relaxed" and have students that do not take themselves too seriously. But then again...I don't know. Any thoughts?

I know some of you might think this is futile, but in making a choice between the 2 schools, I want to look at extra-curricular things. Since they are pretty much as good, and going to Columbia will not ensure me a job more than NYU especially in the current market, I want to know if one has a better atmosphere than the other one. Will Columbia not have a much more competitive and less friendly atmosphere than NYU? NYU just gives me the impression to be more "relaxed" and have students that do not take themselves too seriously. But then again...I don't know. Any thoughts?
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raji20

DMM,
I have friends who have been to both and have good things to say about both schools. I know more about NYU than I do about Columbia. NYU has a more relaxed feel and a number of Centers/Research Institutes, etc. which might be something you should consider. Check out the faculty to see if there are some profs at either school you know, have heard of, want to be taught by, etc. Also, try to ascertain what courses are required for your LL.M., how many out of law courses you can take (if you are interested in that at all). I've lived in NYC for about 4 years and the neighbourhoods of the two schools are very different. NYU is in the center of the city and is very much a "city campus". Columbia is in Morningside Heights neighbourhood and is more of a "campus" set apart from the city (sort of). That might have a factor on where you live. For instance, if I was going to Columbia, I wouldn't live in Brooklyn (where I live now). Getting to NYU from Brooklyn is not a long commute. These are other things to think about. I don't think either school has a particularly heavy "competitive or unfriendly" atmosphere.

DMM,
I have friends who have been to both and have good things to say about both schools. I know more about NYU than I do about Columbia. NYU has a more relaxed feel and a number of Centers/Research Institutes, etc. which might be something you should consider. Check out the faculty to see if there are some profs at either school you know, have heard of, want to be taught by, etc. Also, try to ascertain what courses are required for your LL.M., how many out of law courses you can take (if you are interested in that at all). I've lived in NYC for about 4 years and the neighbourhoods of the two schools are very different. NYU is in the center of the city and is very much a "city campus". Columbia is in Morningside Heights neighbourhood and is more of a "campus" set apart from the city (sort of). That might have a factor on where you live. For instance, if I was going to Columbia, I wouldn't live in Brooklyn (where I live now). Getting to NYU from Brooklyn is not a long commute. These are other things to think about. I don't think either school has a particularly heavy "competitive or unfriendly" atmosphere.
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cjoop

As a former NYU student (LLM in Corporation), I just would like say that the environment at NYU is really friendly. It is a great place to study and it is an amazing university. You will not regret if you chose NYU over Columbia. I have many friends that took this decision. I will not get into this nonsense of academic level because you will see the reality for your self when you get here. Both schools are great, dont worry.

Regarding the job question, it all depends where you come from. I am from Brazil. In my year everybody from Brazil that wanted to stay in NYC got a job in the US. But, I am talking about 2007 when the market was really good still. However, I cannot say the same about my fellows at Columbia. I know a couple of Brazilians that wanted to stay but did not get a job and just had to go home. However, the ones that went home got good jobs in Brazil.

The Europeans are the most wanted by employers, either by Americans or Europeans firms. No questions about that so I guess this will not change in the following years.

The career service of NYU is incredible. I have no idea about the career service of Columbia. But, at NYU, if you ask for their help, you will get all the help you want and more. They are really committed in getting NYU students a good placement in the market.

I got into this LLMGUIDE to post for a friend that unfortunately just got rejected from NYU. I dont usually follow the discussions, but wanted to say something positive about NYU when I read the posts of this forum.

I wish all of you a great LLM year either at Columbia or NYU!!!!

As a former NYU student (LLM in Corporation), I just would like say that the environment at NYU is really friendly. It is a great place to study and it is an amazing university. You will not regret if you chose NYU over Columbia. I have many friends that took this decision. I will not get into this nonsense of academic level… because you will see the reality for your self when you get here. Both schools are great, don’t worry….

Regarding the job question, it all depends where you come from. I am from Brazil. In my year everybody from Brazil that wanted to stay in NYC got a job in the US. But, I am talking about 2007 when the market was really good still. However, I cannot say the same about my fellows at Columbia. I know a couple of Brazilians that wanted to stay but did not get a job and just had to go home. However, the ones that went home got good jobs in Brazil.

The Europeans are the most wanted by employers, either by Americans or Europeans firms. No questions about that… so I guess this will not change in the following years.

The career service of NYU is incredible. I have no idea about the career service of Columbia. But, at NYU, if you ask for their help, you will get all the help you want and more. They are really committed in getting NYU students a good placement in the market.

I got into this LLMGUIDE to post for a friend that unfortunately just got rejected from NYU. I don’t usually follow the discussions, but wanted to say something positive about NYU when I read the posts of this forum.

I wish all of you a great LLM year either at Columbia or NYU!!!!
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loop_

thanks cjoop!

thanks cjoop!
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Pitch

In this recession, the job fair held @ Columbia (in which only HLS, YLS, SLS, Chicago and Michigan participate) had far more job offers for the U.S. than the one at NYU.

The Job fair is smaller in terms of students participating but has far more job openings. This is also due the fact that undoubtebly the best U.S. law school participate in this one.
Consider this when making the decision
Cheers

In this recession, the job fair held @ Columbia (in which only HLS, YLS, SLS, Chicago and Michigan participate) had far more job offers for the U.S. than the one at NYU.

The Job fair is smaller in terms of students participating but has far more job openings. This is also due the fact that undoubtebly the best U.S. law school participate in this one.
Consider this when making the decision
Cheers
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mnementh

I doubt this very much and unless you provide some evidence to back it up, people shouldn't take this into consideration. Especially since if all the offers were made to Yale students or something. Again, I don't know but it's very doubtful. The job fair at NYU is usually the most successful there is.

I doubt this very much and unless you provide some evidence to back it up, people shouldn't take this into consideration. Especially since if all the offers were made to Yale students or something. Again, I don't know but it's very doubtful. The job fair at NYU is usually the most successful there is.
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I doubt this very much and unless you provide some evidence to back it up, people shouldn't take this into consideration. Especially since if all the offers were made to Yale students or something. Again, I don't know but it's very doubtful. The job fair at NYU is usually the most successful there is.


It's interesting. If anyone attempts to synergize the gist of mnementh's last ten posts or so, this is more or less what you'd get: (1) he's an NYU student, though he generally avoids stating it (2) NYU fairs are clearly better than the CLS fair (even though he concedes that the CLS fair is attended by HLS and YLS and even though he pointedly admits above that "I don't know") (3) anyone who says NYU is worse than CLS in any way whatsoever is wrong (4) even when confronted with the bell curve argument someone provided, he said that competing "statistics" will show he is right, without providing a link to such statistics.

To synthesize again, NYU is the best and everyone else who provides their own reasoning otherwise or even solid statistics to prove it are wrong. When people suggests otherwise like above, he asks for statistics. When people provide solid and unimpeachable stats ("how dare they!") on grade inflation, like did happen in the other post, he claims that the statistics are wrong because they do not illustrate what happened in previous years, which would prove him right. An important point to note is that he does not actually bother to show us where those statistics can be found. Saying the same thing a million times doesn't make it right mnementh.

I am not a CLS student, and I think CLS is nowhere close to the holy trinity of LLM programs - we all know which schools they are. And whichever school is ACADEMICALLY better between NYU and CLS, if mnementh is an example of an NYU student and I apologize to all of you NYU students in advance, then one thing I do know is I would choose CLS since mnementh does not embody the kind of student I would ever want to spend a year, or god forbid enter a debate, in an academic institution with.

<blockquote>I doubt this very much and unless you provide some evidence to back it up, people shouldn't take this into consideration. Especially since if all the offers were made to Yale students or something. Again, I don't know but it's very doubtful. The job fair at NYU is usually the most successful there is.
</blockquote>

It's interesting. If anyone attempts to synergize the gist of mnementh's last ten posts or so, this is more or less what you'd get: (1) he's an NYU student, though he generally avoids stating it (2) NYU fairs are clearly better than the CLS fair (even though he concedes that the CLS fair is attended by HLS and YLS and even though he pointedly admits above that "I don't know") (3) anyone who says NYU is worse than CLS in any way whatsoever is wrong (4) even when confronted with the bell curve argument someone provided, he said that competing "statistics" will show he is right, without providing a link to such statistics.

To synthesize again, NYU is the best and everyone else who provides their own reasoning otherwise or even solid statistics to prove it are wrong. When people suggests otherwise like above, he asks for statistics. When people provide solid and unimpeachable stats ("how dare they!") on grade inflation, like did happen in the other post, he claims that the statistics are wrong because they do not illustrate what happened in previous years, which would prove him right. An important point to note is that he does not actually bother to show us where those statistics can be found. Saying the same thing a million times doesn't make it right mnementh.

I am not a CLS student, and I think CLS is nowhere close to the holy trinity of LLM programs - we all know which schools they are. And whichever school is ACADEMICALLY better between NYU and CLS, if mnementh is an example of an NYU student and I apologize to all of you NYU students in advance, then one thing I do know is I would choose CLS since mnementh does not embody the kind of student I would ever want to spend a year, or god forbid enter a debate, in an academic institution with.
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The job fair at NYU is usually the most successful there is.


As for the curve, until this year NYU's curve was the hardest in the country I think and much less than CLS and now i think they're balancing it a little


Oh and I forgot to add that as shown by the examples above NYU is better than any other school about anything. It doesn't matter what. Bell curve or job fair or anything else or ever the stats might say. Any school that mnementh is in is THE BEST AT ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING THEY SET OUT TO DO.

<blockquote>The job fair at NYU is usually the most successful there is.
</blockquote>

<blockquote>As for the curve, until this year NYU's curve was the hardest in the country I think and much less than CLS and now i think they're balancing it a little
</blockquote>

Oh and I forgot to add that as shown by the examples above NYU is better than any other school about anything. It doesn't matter what. Bell curve or job fair or anything else or ever the stats might say. Any school that mnementh is in is THE BEST AT ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING THEY SET OUT TO DO.
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mnementh

doyouresearch is obviously one of the CLS students (or recent accepted ones) signing on to the forum and trying to trash NYU. I'm currently in NYC and I have several friends who are at NYU and also at CLS and others.

Your post above is complete rubbish. NYU is not better than CLS, in many ways, and I repeatedly said that both schools are very good, and each has its own merits. You are just ridiculous and acting like a typical newbie. maybe you're the same remy user that you mentioned.

The curve posted had a few mistakes and I posted them. they weren't big mistakes, but it was a little misleading. this information was published by nyu. i explained also the hisotrical context of nyu. this can be confirmed by anyone who's not a half wit like you...

doyouresearch is obviously one of the CLS students (or recent accepted ones) signing on to the forum and trying to trash NYU. I'm currently in NYC and I have several friends who are at NYU and also at CLS and others.

Your post above is complete rubbish. NYU is not better than CLS, in many ways, and I repeatedly said that both schools are very good, and each has its own merits. You are just ridiculous and acting like a typical newbie. maybe you're the same remy user that you mentioned.

The curve posted had a few mistakes and I posted them. they weren't big mistakes, but it was a little misleading. this information was published by nyu. i explained also the hisotrical context of nyu. this can be confirmed by anyone who's not a half wit like you...
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mnementh

oh yeah, just so we're clear on the delusional account of doyourresearch, the "solid and unimpeachable stats ("how dare they!") on grade inflation" :) was the blog piece from The Columbia Daily Spectator which is the daily newspaper of Columbia University. Unsurprisingly maybe it had a little bit of misleading info and bias. maybe unintentional.

Indeed, Do your research.

oh yeah, just so we're clear on the delusional account of doyourresearch, the "solid and unimpeachable stats ("how dare they!") on grade inflation" :) was the blog piece from The Columbia Daily Spectator which is the daily newspaper of Columbia University. Unsurprisingly maybe it had a little bit of misleading info and bias. maybe unintentional.

Indeed, Do your research.
quote

doyouresearch is obviously one of the CLS students (or recent accepted ones) signing on to the forum and trying to trash NYU. I'm currently in NYC and I have several friends who are at NYU and also at CLS and others.


Note again that he does not say he is from NYU, quite deftly avoiding it by saying he is in "NYC" even though it would be easy for him to say. Duke and NYU accepted him and he chose NYU by inference since Duke is not in NYC. Anyone who wants to confirm that would need to trawl through the previous LLM Guide posts where he admits as much. Note the very institution he attempts to uphold is one he subtly does not make any connection to in any post, especially posts protecting that institution. Even when confronted about it previously he refused to engage in that debate and decided to call the other party names all while refusing to admit his affiliation to the institution, but cleverly not denying it explicitly either. Though to be fair the other party there (remy) took the bait. I'm not going to either institution, I'm going to an institution slightly further north of New York that is generally ranked higher than both CLS and NYU (I got accepted to both and rejected them and accepted the one up north). Up to you to guess which one of the two it is and it is up to you to believe it but at least I make my stance that I am not affiliated to either university clear, better than the way you fudge it.

I'd be willing to bet a million dollars that mnemeth got rejected by another institution which we won't name but which lies at the heart of this debate and I'll be willing to bet as well that mnementh won't admit it.

<blockquote>doyouresearch is obviously one of the CLS students (or recent accepted ones) signing on to the forum and trying to trash NYU. I'm currently in NYC and I have several friends who are at NYU and also at CLS and others. </blockquote>

Note again that he does not say he is from NYU, quite deftly avoiding it by saying he is in "NYC" even though it would be easy for him to say. Duke and NYU accepted him and he chose NYU by inference since Duke is not in NYC. Anyone who wants to confirm that would need to trawl through the previous LLM Guide posts where he admits as much. Note the very institution he attempts to uphold is one he subtly does not make any connection to in any post, especially posts protecting that institution. Even when confronted about it previously he refused to engage in that debate and decided to call the other party names all while refusing to admit his affiliation to the institution, but cleverly not denying it explicitly either. Though to be fair the other party there (remy) took the bait. I'm not going to either institution, I'm going to an institution slightly further north of New York that is generally ranked higher than both CLS and NYU (I got accepted to both and rejected them and accepted the one up north). Up to you to guess which one of the two it is and it is up to you to believe it but at least I make my stance that I am not affiliated to either university clear, better than the way you fudge it.

I'd be willing to bet a million dollars that mnemeth got rejected by another institution which we won't name but which lies at the heart of this debate and I'll be willing to bet as well that mnementh won't admit it.
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mnementh

perhaps doyourresearch is mentally retarded, we don't know. Yes, I must be in NYU because it's impossible that someone decided not to pursue an LLM or defer or do a whole bunch of other things or be at a different university, program, capacity and degrees all together. Who knows. Just like we don't know if doyourreserch, who is going to CLS and lying, is mentally retarded or not. I never applied to CLS actually and I think you can find posts about it in the past including the question whether it's a good idea to do an LLM this year and other considerations.

perhaps doyourresearch is mentally retarded, we don't know. Yes, I must be in NYU because it's impossible that someone decided not to pursue an LLM or defer or do a whole bunch of other things or be at a different university, program, capacity and degrees all together. Who knows. Just like we don't know if doyourreserch, who is going to CLS and lying, is mentally retarded or not. I never applied to CLS actually and I think you can find posts about it in the past including the question whether it's a good idea to do an LLM this year and other considerations.
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mnementh

btw, anybody who's willing to bet a million dollars on an internet debate like this can't be accepted to Harvard or Yale. They don't accept morons. I would like to know though how you got convinced that Duke and NYU are the schools that accepted me from which i had to choose, please lead me thru your thought process. And by that I mean not accepted to other schools programs etc.

btw, anybody who's willing to bet a million dollars on an internet debate like this can't be accepted to Harvard or Yale. They don't accept morons. I would like to know though how you got convinced that Duke and NYU are the schools that accepted me from which i had to choose, please lead me thru your thought process. And by that I mean not accepted to other schools programs etc.
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yasminm

I'm saying this after considerable reflection but I think it has to be said (mostly because I've just logged in a few minutes ago for the day and got someone PM-ing me to ask for advice because this Board has become filled with threads like this):

Question: Who wins no matter which one of you "wins" this debate (if that is even possible)?

Answer: Neither NYU nor CLS.

I'm saying this after considerable reflection but I think it has to be said (mostly because I've just logged in a few minutes ago for the day and got someone PM-ing me to ask for advice because this Board has become filled with threads like this):

Question: Who wins no matter which one of you "wins" this debate (if that is even possible)?

Answer: Neither NYU nor CLS.
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mnementh

Exactly. I agree with you and i usually agree with your posts yasminm. i'm just trying to provide some information i'm aware of but some think it's an attack on CLS to reflect some positive facts about NYU. it's not. and the debate is silly.

Exactly. I agree with you and i usually agree with your posts yasminm. i'm just trying to provide some information i'm aware of but some think it's an attack on CLS to reflect some positive facts about NYU. it's not. and the debate is silly.
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mnementh

btw, you can find the NYU curve and what i meant about maximum/possible amount of grades and why it can be misleading here:
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2008/12/nyus-new-grading-curve.html and a discussion about the previous curve here http://volokh.com/posts/1228419065.shtml, the result of which it was difficult to get above a B (or below, a flat curve)

btw, you can find the NYU curve and what i meant about maximum/possible amount of grades and why it can be misleading here:
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2008/12/nyus-new-grading-curve.html and a discussion about the previous curve here http://volokh.com/posts/1228419065.shtml, the result of which it was difficult to get above a B (or below, a flat curve)

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tanay0903

On the expenses side, which would be cheaper? Naturally this would include tuition waivers, scholarships and availability of part time jobs...

On the expenses side, which would be cheaper? Naturally this would include tuition waivers, scholarships and availability of part time jobs...
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Santa

It'll both be about the same amount. Tuition might differ a little bit, but for the rest you'll be in the same city so the difference will never be too high :)

It'll both be about the same amount. Tuition might differ a little bit, but for the rest you'll be in the same city so the difference will never be too high :)
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nicktracy

NYU and Columbia are the good law schools.... but i will say that NYU is better in International law and Antitrust.It is best in International Tax.Columbia is best in Corporate law but as an LLM from NYU can take courses from Columbia.. so there is not much difference. In fact in NYU, international LLM student will get a chance to study with JD's but i am not sure about the Columbia.But it is hard to get in Columbia than in NYU.Good luck.

NYU and Columbia are the good law schools.... but i will say that NYU is better in International law and Antitrust.It is best in International Tax.Columbia is best in Corporate law but as an LLM from NYU can take courses from Columbia.. so there is not much difference. In fact in NYU, international LLM student will get a chance to study with JD's but i am not sure about the Columbia.But it is hard to get in Columbia than in NYU.Good luck.
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