@ Tendulkar
Your post was a refreshing read, and echoes my own sentiments on the value of an LL.M. abroad!
Btw, I did not know about Lord's and LSE! That sounds quite exciting! :)
I've applied to Cambridge, not Oxford (wasn't interested in the BCL). In the States, I'd only applied to NYU. So, as of now, I've heard from every place that I applied to with the exception of Cambridge. That's why I'm seriously talking of LSE. In any case, I've been under the impression that LSE is closer to the UK model in terms of its course structure. Oxbridge for all its name is apparently very much on the same lines as the legal education in India. Of course this is all hearsay and others' opinions. I would be a fool to dismiss Cambridge, but it seems to me that NYU v LSE rather than Cam is a fairer comparison. Anyway, I think I've digressed!
I'm from Delhi. What about you?
NYU or LSE? (overall)
Posted Mar 17, 2009 16:41
Your post was a refreshing read, and echoes my own sentiments on the value of an LL.M. abroad!
Btw, I did not know about Lord's and LSE! That sounds quite exciting! :)
I've applied to Cambridge, not Oxford (wasn't interested in the BCL). In the States, I'd only applied to NYU. So, as of now, I've heard from every place that I applied to with the exception of Cambridge. That's why I'm seriously talking of LSE. In any case, I've been under the impression that LSE is closer to the UK model in terms of its course structure. Oxbridge for all its name is apparently very much on the same lines as the legal education in India. Of course this is all hearsay and others' opinions. I would be a fool to dismiss Cambridge, but it seems to me that NYU v LSE rather than Cam is a fairer comparison. Anyway, I think I've digressed!
I'm from Delhi. What about you?
Posted Mar 17, 2009 17:22
I am from Mumbai. Which law school? LSE offer may be conditional? What's the condition?
Posted Mar 17, 2009 17:46
I'm in CLC. And the LSE offer is conditional since I'm in my final semester - 60%.
Posted Mar 18, 2009 15:36
I agree with general sentiments expressed in this thread but there are a few things I would like to point out.
The firm where I work, there are some exceptional lawyers, some of them senior partners, who are not from top ten law schools. Then there are some, who are from my school (HLS) but less said about their skills, the better. What I am getting at is, it is YOU dude, not the school. Good ones never boast about school they went to. They dont have to. Bad ones drop school names to impress the unsuspecting juniors.
Tendulkar (and btw we Americans do know about cricket and though I have never played it, I am a huge fan of your namesake, Sachin Tendulkar. If you know him, Please tell him he has fans in USA too), what I sense is deep down somewhere, you do not have confidence in yourself. Hence the undue importance to extraneous details. You do not realize it yet but you need to analyze it and cultivate it. Also do not become a legal clerk. Cultivate broader perspective philosophy, psychology, literature, economics. Learn music. Play sport. Be a sport. And above all, enjoy life. Your perspective in life seem to be very narrow. Know that law is part of life. To be a good lawyer, it is important to be a good human being first.
If you plan to be mediocre, put your faith in school. If you plan to be be excellent, put your faith in yourself.
Good luck.
The firm where I work, there are some exceptional lawyers, some of them senior partners, who are not from top ten law schools. Then there are some, who are from my school (HLS) but less said about their skills, the better. What I am getting at is, it is YOU dude, not the school. Good ones never boast about school they went to. They dont have to. Bad ones drop school names to impress the unsuspecting juniors.
Tendulkar (and btw we Americans do know about cricket and though I have never played it, I am a huge fan of your namesake, Sachin Tendulkar. If you know him, Please tell him he has fans in USA too), what I sense is deep down somewhere, you do not have confidence in yourself. Hence the undue importance to extraneous details. You do not realize it yet but you need to analyze it and cultivate it. Also do not become a legal clerk. Cultivate broader perspective philosophy, psychology, literature, economics. Learn music. Play sport. Be a sport. And above all, enjoy life. Your perspective in life seem to be very narrow. Know that law is part of life. To be a good lawyer, it is important to be a good human being first.
If you plan to be mediocre, put your faith in school. If you plan to be be excellent, put your faith in yourself.
Good luck.
Posted Mar 18, 2009 16:37
Lawpartner, its great to hear from you. First of all I'll convey your message to Sachin Tendulkar.
I couldn't agree more with you. But I feel that you did not correctly understand the tone and tenor behind my long post. My post was in fact in response to previous posts which insinuated that procedure must be given more importance than knowledge, as also that I must reconsider doing my LLM as my endeavour was to finally give a shot at counsel practice in India.
In fact I agree completely with you that I must to cultivate a broader perspective. That's exactly why I want to pursue my LLM in the US or America. I don't know why you thought that my perspective in life is narrow or that I did not have confidence in myself.
In fact like I said, I only want to know which of the two schools will enable me to have a more enriching experience.
This in no way limits it to only law, and goes much beyond that.
I couldn't agree more with you. But I feel that you did not correctly understand the tone and tenor behind my long post. My post was in fact in response to previous posts which insinuated that procedure must be given more importance than knowledge, as also that I must reconsider doing my LLM as my endeavour was to finally give a shot at counsel practice in India.
In fact I agree completely with you that I must to cultivate a broader perspective. That's exactly why I want to pursue my LLM in the US or America. I don't know why you thought that my perspective in life is narrow or that I did not have confidence in myself.
In fact like I said, I only want to know which of the two schools will enable me to have a more enriching experience.
This in no way limits it to only law, and goes much beyond that.
Posted Mar 18, 2009 17:35
Lawpartner,
I followed this thread and I appreciate your advice too. My question is this it might be ok for someone who is already well established like urself to say this or to someone who has a rich dad to say this but for someone like me from rural India, worked my way thru poverty all my life, always had gold medal in school, law school and now LLM but got caught by the downturn and now have creditors after me for their money and have no place to turn to what would you have done? 70K seems like a lot to broaden my perspective as you say. But what about people who dont have a job and are down by a lot (it is relative but for me it really is a lot.)
BTW which law firm you work for?
I followed this thread and I appreciate your advice too. My question is this it might be ok for someone who is already well established like urself to say this or to someone who has a rich dad to say this but for someone like me from rural India, worked my way thru poverty all my life, always had gold medal in school, law school and now LLM but got caught by the downturn and now have creditors after me for their money and have no place to turn to what would you have done? 70K seems like a lot to broaden my perspective as you say. But what about people who dont have a job and are down by a lot (it is relative but for me it really is a lot.)
BTW which law firm you work for?
Posted Mar 18, 2009 18:27
Lawpartner, its great to hear from you. First of all I'll convey your message to Sachin Tendulkar.
I couldn't agree more with you. But I feel that you did not correctly understand the tone and tenor behind my long post. My post was in fact in response to previous posts which insinuated that procedure must be given more importance than knowledge, as also that I must reconsider doing my LLM as my endeavour was to finally give a shot at counsel practice in India.
My dear young friend,
I am not here to confront anyone and personally I don't like to get into any arguments as this is not the right place for it.
Let me share some more thoughts with you. When I say procedure, I mean it in a different sense. As human beings we have two unique patterns of learning which in a manner of speaking could be seen as algorithm and heuristics.
Algorithm in the context of your education would refer to knowledge of law which is academic in nature without exposure to its application, whereas heuristics would imply first hand experience of handling contentious legal issues.
Some things can never be taught in a class or within an academic environment and need to be experienced by getting involved in the process and the actual turning of events. Litigation is all about this and the procedure will involve intricate details, the mechanism read in class is a complex structure out there and only its exposure will bring about awareness and the add a full circle to your knowledge structures.
Another thing, on which, I would like to lay emphasis, is that internship is a limited exposure to the actual practice and you don't really get to see what the real court room drama is all about and I don't know about other countries, but in India, it does not count as work experience especially from a litigation perspective.
When you mention somewhere that to hone your litigation skills you would like to work with a Senior counsel. I don't believe that is the right approach. If you want to litigate and present a case yourself some day, you would need to join a briefing counsel's office, where you will learn to draft pleadings, will get to expose yourself to different courts and forums, conduct inspections, admission & denial of documents, learn to lead evidence by undertaking examination in chief and cross-examination, learn to articulate and present arguments and trust me moot courts don't teach you the real action or generate the actual thrill involved in presenting a case when you know there is something real at stake and it's not merely a hypothetical situation.
Senior Advocates are good, you will get to work with them even as a briefing counsel, learn when they add their perspective to a given legal issue, how meticulous there approach is, how they read into a problem and present a solution but your exposure as a researcher working with a Senior counsel won't offer you the opportunity to either learn the intricate details of the procedure and would not permit you appear in a court and present a case.
Another thing I need to mention here is that, I personally don't like cricket and don't have much knowledge about it either and prefer basketball and football and have played at the zonal and university level, but had to give up sports ever since I joined the profession. Litigation is very demanding and will not give you any time for sports except for mild recreation maybe on a Sunday.
No doubt, LL.M. is going to give you a different and fulfilling experience and will offer a different perspective than what you presently hold. You seem to have a good academic score and if you wait and gain some work experience, you may even qualify for Harvard, Stanford and Yale in time to come and make your LL.M. experience more enriching by sharing more than mere academic knowledge.
NYU and LSE are good institutions and are very well received by Indian firms, however if you intent to practice on your own, your clients won't pay you a dime extra for your educational qualification and won't care for anything else except for results.
Please understand, it is not merely good oration or knowledge on law that will help generate results, it is much much more than that and something very hard to explain in words. You need to read signs, read the judge amongst several other factors that you can discover only by experiencing them.
Best of luck for whichever institution you choose, perhaps I am an illiterate lawyer, who understands little of the richness of an LL.M. experience and apologize for my previous post.
I couldn't agree more with you. But I feel that you did not correctly understand the tone and tenor behind my long post. My post was in fact in response to previous posts which insinuated that procedure must be given more importance than knowledge, as also that I must reconsider doing my LLM as my endeavour was to finally give a shot at counsel practice in India.
</blockquote>
My dear young friend,
I am not here to confront anyone and personally I don't like to get into any arguments as this is not the right place for it.
Let me share some more thoughts with you. When I say procedure, I mean it in a different sense. As human beings we have two unique patterns of learning which in a manner of speaking could be seen as algorithm and heuristics.
Algorithm in the context of your education would refer to knowledge of law which is academic in nature without exposure to its application, whereas heuristics would imply first hand experience of handling contentious legal issues.
Some things can never be taught in a class or within an academic environment and need to be experienced by getting involved in the process and the actual turning of events. Litigation is all about this and the procedure will involve intricate details, the mechanism read in class is a complex structure out there and only its exposure will bring about awareness and the add a full circle to your knowledge structures.
Another thing, on which, I would like to lay emphasis, is that internship is a limited exposure to the actual practice and you don't really get to see what the real court room drama is all about and I don't know about other countries, but in India, it does not count as work experience especially from a litigation perspective.
When you mention somewhere that to hone your litigation skills you would like to work with a Senior counsel. I don't believe that is the right approach. If you want to litigate and present a case yourself some day, you would need to join a briefing counsel's office, where you will learn to draft pleadings, will get to expose yourself to different courts and forums, conduct inspections, admission & denial of documents, learn to lead evidence by undertaking examination in chief and cross-examination, learn to articulate and present arguments and trust me moot courts don't teach you the real action or generate the actual thrill involved in presenting a case when you know there is something real at stake and it's not merely a hypothetical situation.
Senior Advocates are good, you will get to work with them even as a briefing counsel, learn when they add their perspective to a given legal issue, how meticulous there approach is, how they read into a problem and present a solution but your exposure as a researcher working with a Senior counsel won't offer you the opportunity to either learn the intricate details of the procedure and would not permit you appear in a court and present a case.
Another thing I need to mention here is that, I personally don't like cricket and don't have much knowledge about it either and prefer basketball and football and have played at the zonal and university level, but had to give up sports ever since I joined the profession. Litigation is very demanding and will not give you any time for sports except for mild recreation maybe on a Sunday.
No doubt, LL.M. is going to give you a different and fulfilling experience and will offer a different perspective than what you presently hold. You seem to have a good academic score and if you wait and gain some work experience, you may even qualify for Harvard, Stanford and Yale in time to come and make your LL.M. experience more enriching by sharing more than mere academic knowledge.
NYU and LSE are good institutions and are very well received by Indian firms, however if you intent to practice on your own, your clients won't pay you a dime extra for your educational qualification and won't care for anything else except for results.
Please understand, it is not merely good oration or knowledge on law that will help generate results, it is much much more than that and something very hard to explain in words. You need to read signs, read the judge amongst several other factors that you can discover only by experiencing them.
Best of luck for whichever institution you choose, perhaps I am an illiterate lawyer, who understands little of the richness of an LL.M. experience and apologize for my previous post.
Posted Mar 18, 2009 18:51
Dear mav09,
I agree with each and everything that you've said apart from that fact that you may be an illiterate lawyer :D. Thank you for your insights.
After completion of the LLM course I intend to work with a solicitors firm (briefing attorney as you call it--the same place where I am right now) for some time before graduating to counsel practice. But I must also add that I've been privileged to witness court room drama on a day to day basis as a part of the team of instructing attorneys. In the same breath I appreciate that it can never be the same arguing the matter.
Where all have you applied this year? Where are you going to go eventually?
I agree with each and everything that you've said apart from that fact that you may be an illiterate lawyer :D. Thank you for your insights.
After completion of the LLM course I intend to work with a solicitors firm (briefing attorney as you call it--the same place where I am right now) for some time before graduating to counsel practice. But I must also add that I've been privileged to witness court room drama on a day to day basis as a part of the team of instructing attorneys. In the same breath I appreciate that it can never be the same arguing the matter.
Where all have you applied this year? Where are you going to go eventually?
Posted Mar 19, 2009 05:03
Dear Tech,
I hear you. But if it is any consolation, in present times, even the most "secured" amongst us are only a pink slip away from insecurity. Hang in there. Things will get better. Though I cant promise anything bcos even my firm is laying off, send me a PM. I will see what I can do.
Dear D and T:
It is not about procedure or substance. It is the individual. Everyone who went to Ivy League knows that there are some great ones and then there are those who come bcos they want to put 'xyz' brand on their resume. It is like putting lipstick on a pig. Aim for excellence not for lipstick. If you aim for excellence, you would NOT have to flaunt and name drop the brand names, faculty etc. etc.
Good luck to all of you.
I hear you. But if it is any consolation, in present times, even the most "secured" amongst us are only a pink slip away from insecurity. Hang in there. Things will get better. Though I cant promise anything bcos even my firm is laying off, send me a PM. I will see what I can do.
Dear D and T:
It is not about procedure or substance. It is the individual. Everyone who went to Ivy League knows that there are some great ones and then there are those who come bcos they want to put 'xyz' brand on their resume. It is like putting lipstick on a pig. Aim for excellence not for lipstick. If you aim for excellence, you would NOT have to flaunt and name drop the brand names, faculty etc. etc.
Good luck to all of you.
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