Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone could help me with making a decision between BU and UPenn. I applied to BU's Banking and Finance Law and UPenn with concentration in Banking and Securities law. I've tried to make a decision between these two but it's proving to be very hard.

I already have a JD from a top 20 school. But I wanted to specialize in securities regulations area and hopefully when I'm done with my LLM, I'd like to work in this practice at a major firm. In terms of future employment perspective, can anyone give me some advice?

Thanks!

Don't focus solely on the banking and securities subjects. Realistically, you can only take two or three subjects per term from the natural pool (Securities Regulation, Capital Market Regulation or some other exchange-related subject, Banking, International Finance, M&A, Corporate Governance, etc.). You'd probably want a non-corporate or cross-registered subject each term, since this may well be your last year in school.

I'm in the HLS International Finance concentration, and two girls dropped out to take unrelated subjects in the last term.

Thanks, josepidal. But I don't think you quite answered my question.

I'm trying to make a decision between BU and UPenn.
BU's banking and finance law program is strictly for LLM students whereas at UPenn LLM students take classes together with JDs students and pick their area of interest. I'm wondering what employers would prefer -- the specialization of the school (BU) or the reputation (UPenn).

I didn't because I'm from HLS and shy away from commenting on school reputations (unless HLS is involved).

In my honest opinion, as a general answer, I think reputation brings a greater plus to LLM employability. The particular curriculum is less important because most law schools have these subjects anyway, even if you're not required to take all of them. Some students get corporate jobs with just a Corporations class and something else, and consider that most employers see only your Fall term subjects and grades or none at all. I also don't think that employers are particularly impressed if you cross-registered in the business school, unless you get an MBA (not that cross-registering in a place like Wharton won't give you benefits in terms of your education).

You might think it's arbitrary and it might be, but we're talking about the employer perspective here.

As another general answer, I also prefer taking classes with JDs, as playing beer pong with them is more fun than any group of LLMs, excepting the Latinos. You're in America, so you should make the effort to meet American students, particularly if you're thinking of working in America. Some groups of LLMs are notorious for never really mingling, and I think socializing and getting exposed to other people is as important (or more important) than class work.

Applied to your particular context, my answers might imply that I'm advising you to take UPenn, but I'm in no position to do that. I can tell you that BU has one of the best Banking and Finance programs. I'm doing research on Banking and Securities regulation, and was immediately referred to one of the most senior professors at BU, and am using a lot of her articles.

Congrats for both admissions !

I completely agree with josepidal concerning the employer's point of view ... I've also been accepted in BU's banking LLM and having a hard time deciding whether to accept or not. BU's ranking is below the top 10 but the school, the people and the city seem very very nice. Still waiting for Columbia,NYU, Michigan's ... decisions (to name a few).

Bottom line question: is BU's banking LLM a recognized valuable asset in one's employability record in the US? Does it come near the prestige of schools like Columbia and NYU? (by the way i'm a Lebanese LLM candidate)

josepidal you seem to be a guy in the know (read a great deal of your posts on this forum), your answer would be much appreciated.

Regards.

Thanks, joespidal. I appreciate your advice. I guess I kind of wanted something different -- after three years getting JD, I was looking for something different. Had it not been for the ranking factor and employment, I don't think I would have had any hesitation choosing BU over UPenn. But I guess, this is just reality. *sigh*.

AndrewDeAbiAd, have you had the chance to some of the alumni from BU's Banking program? I did get a chance and they all gave very positive reviews. Which makes it sooooo much more difficult to make a decision.

Andrew: I don't really know much outside HLS, so let me use that as an example: I don't think being from HLS' International Finance Concentration offers a noticeable advantage compared to being a general HLS LLM. There was an interviewer today, for example, and he asked people more about their M&A class (which is not a core subject of any concentration, but one of the most important corporate subjects) than about being in a concentration.

Unless you're in a Tax LLM, I don't think a particular concentration enjoys a higher reputation than the school's general reputation. (Of course, BU's reputation is quite good, even if one is hard pressed to argue it has the cachet of the Top 5 or 10. There are JDs who take that Banking & Finance LLM, which says something)

However, you should e-mail the BU Banking & Finance staff and ask to talk to alumni, if you're interested. Also, I think being in BU has hidden networking strengths. For example, you can go to events at other schools such as Harvard and BC, and talk to the same lawyers who visit. As with everything about networking, you just need to put in a little effort.

Had it not been for the ranking factor and employment, I don't think I would have had any hesitation choosing BU over UPenn. But I guess, this is just reality. *sigh*.

Thank you for your replies, I'm amazed by the number of people who seem to really enjoy helping others. From where I come it's a dog-eat-dog experience.

I already personally know a number of BU's banking and finance LLM alumni (my phone interviewer told me that Lebanese students are among the best in their LLM class). I even know some Boston residents and a Harvard MBA student to name a few ... they all gave me great insights on life and study in Boston. The problem is that ALL of the Lebanese BU LLM holders have returned home after their studies. I suspect that it's due to the fact that they couldn't land a job after graduation, but of course they would never admit to that (because it's viewed as a personal failure).

The issue seems to be with the "prestige" inherent to law school rankings. BU has everything going for them except that piece of information published in some magazines. Personally I know that rankings aren't everything but for the real life employer it seems that it's a crucial factor. I'm even more alarmed by the fact that some people are questioning NYU's LLM credibility while I regard this university as one of my top choices (still waiting for their decision)!

Completely at a loss.

I know for a fact that BU is highly regarded in my country but the thing is that I desperately want to flee my country before I'm forced to participate in yet another civil war (just two days ago three bombs were disarmed in my neighborhood)! Working in the US or elsewhere after graduation is VITAL. Thus I only seek to maximize my job finding chances. Logisitcally Boston is close to New York which is a plus and the administration people are just GREAT but I don't know if that is enough to compensate for their school's 20+ ranking. It's one of the most difficult decision I'll ever have to make.

Bottom line: is BU's banking and finance program considered by the market as a one of the top LLMs? Or is it regarded as yet another "academic product"?

P.S.: I am interested in working for an NGO such as the World Bank, WTO, ... not restricted to private law firms which seem a lot harder to integrate.

Some points.

1) I hope that if you enter an LLM program, you approach it with the opposite of a dog eat dog mentality. LLMs all have a law degree already and are expected to be more mature, and in a practical sense, there are few incentives to step over all your classmates in a quest to get the highest grade average in the school. You just need to pass, or get high but not necessarily spectacular grades to get a job or into an SJD program. You should aim to be enriched more by the relationships (with professors, classmates, and JD classmates alike) you build more than what you get in the formal classroom environment itself. In fact, Dean Kagan told the HLS 1Ls and LLMs that they had already won by getting admitted, and there's no need to be obsessed with competition.

2) I sympathize with your frustrations with your country. I agree that BU both has an incredible finance program and that the rankings (and possibly employers) have not yet caught up with this. Note, however, that school prestige is just one factor in the job hunt. If anything, it makes it easier to get a foot in the door, but once you're sitting in an interview, you're an individual and your personality, grades, and networking efforts come to bear. If it were all about prestige, then HLS and Yale LLMs would always beat, say, NYU and Columbia LLMs for choice jobs, but that's just not the case.

3) BU has launched an internship program within its Banking and Finance program, you might note.

4) Getting choice NGO jobs such as World Bank positions involve the same, if not more, competition, in my opinion.

5) Without commenting on which to choose, I think you should consider just how focused a program you want, since BU's is very focused. You do well when you do something you're passionate about, and it may be better to look for a US job with good grades from a slightly lesser ranked school than with average grades from a slightly higher ranked school.

I totally agree with you on each and every point. Note that the competition here is actually extremely fierce due to the size (10452 km2) and volatile situation of the country and I assure you that I certainly do not adhere to the blood thirsty competition mentality. Despite that I managed to land an internship in one of the top 5 firms but life is still a living hell out here.

When I enquired about BU's post graduation and internship services the answer was that they would help each candidate to land an internship but didn't mention any specific internship program. Could you please provide a URL for the program you mentioned? I will also explore their site further.

Very constructive insights as usual. Thank you for your time.

I heard about it from the students themselves, actually, but I think it's described in their website.

As always, your best resource for finding a job is yourself, and you don't need to wait to get an internship.

Anyone get feedback regarding the Morin Center's new internship program that's being launched this term? I'm curious as it's an innovation in this field of interest.

Here it is, got it from:

http://www.bu.edu/law/prospective/llm/banking/index.html

"New to the program:
financial services law internship

Announcing a new course which will allow students of the Graduate Program in Banking and Financial Law to work at an off-campus internship. (...) Students work under the supervision of a lawyer and a faculty advisor who will ensure that they have a meaningful, relevant and rigorous experience. This course is open only to students who are studying for the concentration in Financial Services Transactions, for which it is a requirement."

There are all in all 6 concentrations:

American Banking and Financial Law
Compliance Management
Financial Services Transactions
International Banking and Financial Law
Lending and Credit Transactions
Securities Transactions

Thinking of going for the International Banking and Financial Law concentration, could be useful for UN/World Bank/WTO ... job applications. Any insights?

Hi again,

Andrew: have you made a decision? I was wondering what your choice was.

Today, I got an acceptance package from NYU. For NYU, I applied to their Trade Regulation program. I am happy but still have not made a full decision yet. I don't know how this concentration and having an LLM at NYU would help me v. BU's banking and finance program.

Good points about NYU:
it's in NYC -- more opportunity, network, etc.
in the top 5(but only in terms of JD rankings)
Stern business school program

Bad points:
Far more expensive than BU (55,000 v. 80,000 (this is just my calcuation in terms of considering the cost of stern and living expenses).
Big class (425 ppl)
Cherry picking classes among JD classes

This is the dilema I'm having right now. I thought it would be helpful somewhat if I could get an insight on your choice of school since I think we applied to some of the same ones. Would be great to share some ideas. Thanks!

Oh, one more thing.

Since you guys seemd to be interested in the internship program.

It seems that it's only offered to those who choose the Financial Service concentration.

I inquired as to what kind of internship it was -- paid or unpaid. BU says that it is an unpaid internship since foreign students cannot work for paid jobs unless it was with the school (RA or TA jobs). CPT and OPT can be only used after 9 months in school.

It is remarkable that some people tell people to look at the rankings when it is for their school, yet sweep the rankings under the carpet when it concerns other institutions.

I also think, like josepital, that reputation brings a greater plus to LLM employability, and I believe it certainly adds credibility to your application.

That said, there is simply no way a reasonable person can claim that both schools are equal in terms of prestige and employability, when the facts overwhelmingly say otherwise. Boston University is what, number 24 in the US News 2007 ranking, whereas Penn Law is number 7 in the same ranking. Heck, we are not talking about a slight difference of 1 or 2 places: the fact is, there is and will always be a significant difference between a school in the top 10 and a school which is not even in the top 20, no matter how you look at it.

in the top 5(but only in terms of JD rankings)

Hi Malda,

I made the deposit for BU but still waiting for NYU's decision (no word also from Michigan and Cornell). NYU and Cornell are still high on my list. I agree with your reasoning concerning the rankings, employability (then again NY is only a short trip from Boston). Money is no object for me so I would definitely go for NYU if accepted there.

There's still a question to be answered: what is the real life ranking of these schools? The rare graduate ranking info I got was way too general and didn't take into account some of the other interesting concentrations available to LLMs. There are some posts on this forum that put BU in 7th place for both Tax and Intl. law (still behind NYU though), but what about banking/finance?

The ideal would be to get an insight from some hotshot senior partner regarding BU's "prestige" (don't fancy writing like this but it seems that employers DO value this factor a LOT).

If money is a concern then BU does seem as a reasonable compromise. I know many students who attended BU's banking LLM, they gave very positive reviews (although didn't land jobs after graduation) and they all fell in love with this city.

TIP: An alternative to US legal employment would be one of the emerging arab countries (dubai, qatar, abu dhabi ...). You're paid the double there with an LLM and it's a HUGE job pool for foreigners. I also know for a fact that BU's LLM is highly regarded there.

Hope this helps.

That said, there is simply no way a reasonable person can claim that both schools are equal in terms of prestige and employability, when the facts overwhelmingly say otherwise. Boston University is what, number 24 in the US News 2007 ranking, whereas Penn Law is number 7 in the same ranking. Heck, we are not talking about a slight difference of 1 or 2 places: the fact is, there is and will always be a significant difference between a school in the top 10 and a school which is not even in the top 20, no matter how you look at it.

in the top 5(but only in terms of JD rankings)

not for long from what I hear...

Thanks all. All of your advice are very helpful and I appreciate it. :)