Hi everybody,

As the admissions decision date is rapidly approaching (14 Jan 2011) for those who applied on or before 19 Nov 2010, I think it's high time to start a new thread. Let the discussions begin!

May I wish you all a prosperous and successful New Year!

Hi! Considering that this is a very new course, would it be worthwhile to take, viz-a-viz career opportunities afterwards? I'm not quite sure what the career feedback is on the course. I've heard that it's not like any course lawyers are wont to have taken in law school, since it will really involve mathematical and economic concepts!

Hi! Considering that this is a very new course, would it be worthwhile to take, viz-a-viz career opportunities afterwards? I'm not quite sure what the career feedback is on the course. I've heard that it's not like any course lawyers are wont to have taken in law school, since it will really involve mathematical and economic concepts!

I could not agree more!!! I applied last year and made the waiting list. This year, I am applying again. The kind of knowledge you get from a course like that must be unbelieveable. Practice plus theory. And think about it. It is OXFORD! It is almost a 100% quality certificate.
I already have an LLM, I already have my clientes, I already have a career in professorship. I earn more than 6,000 dollars per month, and I am going to give it all up to go to Oxford. And you know why? Because it is worthy starting all again latter. O X F O R D! It is surely a big bet, but a winning one!

This looks like a hugely exciting course. If I were starting my legal career again, this is a Masters that would definitely have excited my interest. For potential lawyers (with very high grades in their primary degrees) interested in financial services law, this course would appear to be tailor made for them.

To: emanuelp....why do you think Oxford MLF put you on the wait list for 2010/2011? And how do you rate your chances for 2011/2012?

Well, let's see. (tricky question, huh)
I am 26 years old, and I had 25 when I applied. I finished Law School at 21 and enrolled at a LLM in the same Law School before graduating. In Brazil it is very rare to rank students, but we rank them in the admission processes (I know, it is strange to do one but not both). I was placed first in that (LLM).
I am also a Professor since 2007 (at 23) of Contracts and Real Law. I also teach Civil Law (introduction) and Civil Liability since 2009.
My GPAs: 9.411(LLB) and 9.422 (LLM - depending on how you calculate it, it might be 9.35 in LLM)
I presented an essay on Central Banks.
That is what I did the first time.
I think I was waitlisted because my Personal Statement was not a clear reflection of me, and because there were stronger applicants, in regards with their background (international experience, banking-related jobs, extracurricular activities), as far as I could learn from Oxford website.

After my "waitlisting", I taught Corporate LAw for just a semester, aiding my Law School to fill a temporary gap, and I was appointed one of the "Most admired Lawyers" from my State. I made a better Personal Statement, telling part of my life and the really why of wanting Oxford so much.
My essay was written in an approach more similar to the way American and British authors do, once I did it more in a Brazilian manner last year.
I also chose referees who have good knowledge of me and my capabilities.

I really do not know If I am getting an offer this year. I surely hope so. What I can tell you is that I really think some things are worthy to keep trying until you get them.

When I contacted the Admissions Offiece, they said they would expect lss applications this year, for 2010-2011 was the first class. My opinion is just the opposite. The more the course is known by everybody, the more people will apply. And people like me, who was not admitted, would apply again. So, I guess this year it would be even harder to get an offer. But without trying, I would never know.

May it helped you somehow!

You seem to have impressive credentials. At least in Brazil I should think. However, you did not mention the name and rank ( in Brazil ) of the Law School that you graduated from. I think Oxford looks at the quality of the Law School and your command of the English Language. This explains why Oxford requires a personal statement, sample essay and IELTS. For IELTS, Oxford requires an Overall Band Score 7. But I reckon if they think that the writing ability of the prospective applicant is not to their satisfaction, an offer may not be forthcoming all else being equal. Again, if the prospective applicant is from a low rank or lesser ranked university, I suppose Oxford may not be too keen to consider an offer. Surely it would not be to Oxford's advantage and reputation to admit a prospective applicant who graduated from low ranked university. So if your Law School in Brazil is say , ranked No.1 , and is top notched, I should think you did not get an offer the first time round maybe because of your writing.

Just my views.

Good luck with your application.

Ok. My bad bot talking about that. Sorry.
I learnt English almost all by myself, as French, German and Spanish too. I lived in a zone close to prostitution, in a sea city, so there were lot of foreigners. This was partciularly true as the Brazilian currency used to be very cheap for europeans and americans.
Anyway, Ielts 8,0, overall, TOEFL internet-based 110 (of 120). The essay was pretty well written, I assure you.
About my University, I really do not think Schools like Oxford, NYU, Cambridge, Oxford, etc., have enough data to rank Brazilian Law Schools. Anyway, If they had, it does not mean much, as ranks may vary a lot. Anyway, my Law School is considered a top 10 here in some of those ranks.
I also do not consider that th rank means so much for countries other than US and those from Europe, due to the lack of data. In such circumstances, I think they give more attention to your references, curriculum vitae and essay. You forget to consider the potential someone shows. Think about it. Suppose I came from a very lame Law School, but that I did it only because it was the best possibility amongst my options. Suppose I had a great GPA there, and that I grew in my profession too. Does it not show that I can do much with not much? What would someone like that do in an School like Oxford? I, myself, would bet in someone like that. Heck, I would VOUCHER such a person!
I thank you for saying my credentials are impressive, but I really believe that all the admitted's and waitlisted's are so, or even more. I actually believe that I am qualified, but this is not about being able to be there, but being MORE able than others. For instance, you might receive an offer this year, and not me. As I told you, international experience and being involved with banking activities seems to give an edge to any MSC, LLM or alke related to Finances or Corporate Law.
The essay it to chek your legal reasoning. The Statement to see if you are Oxford material. Surelly they have influence on the outcome of the admission process, but their main goal is not to evaluate language skills. IELTS is done by Cambridge - it has enough accreditation to do that, I guess.
I expect this to have put some light into what I did not wrote before.

Regards

From what you have written, it only goes to show that no one knows exactly how the Oxford MLF chooses the successful applicants.

There are certain universities in certain countries that you don't have to rank to consider its quality as a law school. Who needs data? For eg, in UK , you do not need to rank Cambridge and Oxford. Just mention the name and it is enough to carry weight. As for USA, who needs to rank Harvard and Yale. For Canada, who needs to rank Toronto.
For New Zealand, you do not rank Otago or Auckland. For Australia, Melbourne is the undisputed champion law school. For Netherlands, Leiden comes to mind. The list goes on .

You have to understand the mindset in UK. One may graduate 1st Class from a reputable law school but if your "A" levels are mediocre without the requisite 3 "As", you will be hard pressed to obtain articles in a solicitors' firm. They care about "A" levels. I should say they are obsessed about "A" levels grades. Your LL.B is secondary. That is the mindset unfortunately. The top legal firms do not care about your achievements post LL.B if your "A" level grades are not good. That is it.

One other thing. The perception is that a 1st class LL.B from a rock bottom law school or lesser known ones is only equal to perhaps a lower second class BA from Oxford? How is that ? But true. It is the perception. So an applicant from a lesser known law school is disadvantaged when applying to Oxford?

Do you know of any one from a lousy law school that got into Oxford to read the Oxford BCL? I would be interested to know.

You are only partially right when you say the essay is to check legal reasoning and the personal statement is to check whether you are Oxford material.

But if the essay and personal statement are written in less than satisfactory English regardless of the IELTS score, do you think the Oxford assessors will want to read them?

If I were them, I will commute the application to the dust bin or down the rubbish chute.

Who cares about legal reasoning or the statement if the standard of English is not up to mark. I doubt if the ILETS will salvage the situation.

Let`s see then
In Brazil, grading system is not anything alike UK or US. You simply receive your final grade in your transcript, after the exams. That is all. Almost all my grades are 10,0 (we adopt a scale from 0 to 9), except for a few of 9 point something and tow or three grades circa 8.0. Again, we do not use A's or 2:1 systems... I also sent a statement from a Rector telling I fulfilled all requirements of magna cum laude in LLB. There is not such an award in the LLM I attend. I
I was also tutor of Constituional LAw for a year, and Tax Law for another year (LLB). I received a grant in money for a year in Law School, because of Tax Law tutorship, given by the University. I also received it for two years during my LLM, merit-based, given by the National Council of Ressearch and Scientific and Technological Development.
The only stain in my academic life is a SIX in tax law during my LLM, as I disagreed with a a Professor who reknownly does not addmit one to think otherwise his own way. Bad, huh?

I would like to know which law school you attended in Brazil to obtain yout LL.B and LL.M. Why so reluctant to disclose your law school?

With your credentials, I am just curious why you did not get an offer in 2010/2011. Surely not all applicants for the Oxford MLF possessed a LL.M like you.

You are only partially right when you say the essay is to check legal reasoning and the personal statement is to check whether you are Oxford material.

But if the essay and personal statement are written in less than satisfactory English regardless of the IELTS score, do you think the Oxford assessors will want to read them?

If I were them, I will commute the application to the dust bin or down the rubbish chute.

Who cares about legal reasoning or the statement if the standard of English is not up to mark. I doubt if the ILETS will salvage the situation.

I would like to know which law school you attended in Brazil to obtain yout LL.B and LL.M. Why so reluctant to disclose your law school?

With your credentials, I am just curious why you did not get an offer in 2010/2011. Surely not all applicants for the Oxford MLF possessed a LL.M like you.

I never imply that your English is lame. On the contrary, anyone with an IELTS Overall Band Score of 8 is commendable. UK law schools only require IELTS 7 for postgraduate law studies. 6.5 for undergraduate law studies. I was merely responding to your assertions. No aspersion on your ability.

You talked about Asia. Easy. The National University of Singapore is world class. So is the University of Hong Kong. For Africa, the University of Cape Town is reputable. And so is the University of Witwatersrand. These universities are well known. If you talk about Thailand, the Chulalongkorn University comes to mind. That easy. For Brazil, which university law school comes to mind if one were to ask which is the best law school in Brazil? That simple.

I do not think it boils down to lack of experience for not getting into Oxford. Look at the statistics in the Oxford website for the ingural 2010/2011 intake. A large chunk who got admitted are supposedly fresh from Law School. Where to get experience if one were to apply just after getting the LL.B ?

I reckon you were on the wait list because as I have said your credentials are impressive. This may compensate for any perceived unsatisfaction by the Oxford assessors in your essay and/or personal statement but not deserving an outright rejection. So you are put on waitlist. As you know, there are only 30 seats in the Oxford MLF. It could be a long wait list. That probably explains it.

As for your law school, I am sure you will agree that it is not even the top 3 in Brazil. Personally, I have not heard of it. Sorry. It may be a good one. I don't know. Chances are the Oxford assessors also probably have not heard of it. Or may be they have. But I am sure they have heard of Melbourne, Auckland, Otago, Hong kong or Singapore. For example, if someone from the perceived best law school in Brazil apply to Oxford, and you also apply, who do you think gets the offer all other things being equal? I think the answer is obvious. This is the stark reality.

I am a practising lawyer. Had my legal education in UK. But not Oxford MLF material.

In the final analysis, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating".

So I would not be influenced by the highly speculative dialogue about Oxford admissions on this thread. In the final analysis, it is the Oxford Postgraduate Admissions Committee which will decide who gets into the Masters in Law and Finance programme. They know the criteria which will govern entry to an LL.M. course with a (scarce) 30 places on offer.

So, Pessoa, you will just have to wait and see whether you make it onto the Oxford LL.M. this time around. No point whatsover in trying to second guess the Oxford Postgraduate Admissions Committee as to the weight they attach to your personal statement, essay or university in Brazil. No one (not even Lawmann) can read the collective mindset of the Oxford Committee. So, Pessoa, best to sit tight and see how things evolve for you. As I have already stated, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating".

30 places is a very small programme. In the event you don't get admitted (touch wood) just think there are other people as qualified and as good as you (or not). Admissions committees are funny and we never know what they look for. I agree with Trinity on this.

As to the fact on being Oxford, its just Oxford a brand name and while it evidence something about your ability it does not define your ability and/or capacity as a person, lecturer or lawyer.

30 places is a very small programme. In the event you don't get admitted (touch wood) just think there are other people as qualified and as good as you (or not). Admissions committees are funny and we never know what they look for. I agree with Trinity on this.

As to the fact on being Oxford, its just Oxford a brand name and while it evidence something about your ability it does not define your ability and/or capacity as a person, lecturer or lawyer.