Best Places To Study European Law (LLM)


Becky6789
Hi,

I am intending to apply to study an LLM beginning in September 2010. I ideally want to study European law (especially Competition law in Europe). I was wondering which Universities are the best in this area? I have a LLB (first class honours) from a UK university. I'm hoping to apply to:

1. Oxford (BCL)
2. Cambridge
3. LSE
4. UCL
5. Kings

Any ideas of other institutions I could apply to? I really liked the idea of going to Harvard but I'm assuming that studying European law anywhere outside Europe defeats common sense?
Hi,

I am intending to apply to study an LLM beginning in September 2010. I ideally want to study European law (especially Competition law in Europe). I was wondering which Universities are the best in this area? I have a LLB (first class honours) from a UK university. I'm hoping to apply to:

1. Oxford (BCL)
2. Cambridge
3. LSE
4. UCL
5. Kings

Any ideas of other institutions I could apply to? I really liked the idea of going to Harvard but I'm assuming that studying European law anywhere outside Europe defeats common sense?
quote
TiGGer
Europa Institut at Saarland University (Germany)!
Europa Institut at Saarland University (Germany)!
quote
Interalia
I would by-pass the uk altogether actually for EU law. Absolutely best place to study EU law is the college of europe in my opinion.

Actually if you're thinking of the US, i would recommend NYU too. Joseph Weiler is legendary among the EU circles. He is also a former Havard professor, who left Havard for NYU some time back. His former students include a current advocate general in the EU court. His name carries a lot of weight among the EU insitutions and he is quite possibly one of the best professors I have ever come across. In my entire life, I have only come across 3 professors who I think are absolutely without a doubt brilliant. He is one of them.

If I had to choose among the uk universities you have given my choice would be oxford because of Weatherill
I would by-pass the uk altogether actually for EU law. Absolutely best place to study EU law is the college of europe in my opinion.

Actually if you're thinking of the US, i would recommend NYU too. Joseph Weiler is legendary among the EU circles. He is also a former Havard professor, who left Havard for NYU some time back. His former students include a current advocate general in the EU court. His name carries a lot of weight among the EU insitutions and he is quite possibly one of the best professors I have ever come across. In my entire life, I have only come across 3 professors who I think are absolutely without a doubt brilliant. He is one of them.

If I had to choose among the uk universities you have given my choice would be oxford because of Weatherill
quote
Paul Craig is Professor at St John's College, Oxford. Don't know him in person but only his work. The latter is very highly regarded.

I would also particularly recommend the EUI at Fiesole (small town up in the hills of Florence in the midst of Tuscany). Has improved its reputation ever and ever during the last twenty years or so. You won't believe who has worked and tought there over the years.

Best
Paul Craig is Professor at St John's College, Oxford. Don't know him in person but only his work. The latter is very highly regarded.

I would also particularly recommend the EUI at Fiesole (small town up in the hills of Florence in the midst of Tuscany). Has improved its reputation ever and ever during the last twenty years or so. You won't believe who has worked and tought there over the years.

Best
quote
Another thought: For competition law, strongly consider Richard Whish at KCL! He certainly is one of the most famous European competition lawyers. Cf. his book entitled "Competition law" which has been published by OUP in its sixth edition a few months ago.
Another thought: For competition law, strongly consider Richard Whish at KCL! He certainly is one of the most famous European competition lawyers. Cf. his book entitled "Competition law" which has been published by OUP in its sixth edition a few months ago.
quote
And another (hopefully final) thought: Cambridge has a strong competition law faculty as well (Albors-Llorens, Odudu, ...). And there is Giorgio Monti at LSE (his book on EC competition law is fabulous).
And another (hopefully final) thought: Cambridge has a strong competition law faculty as well (Albors-Llorens, Odudu, ...). And there is Giorgio Monti at LSE (his book on EC competition law is fabulous).
quote
Becky6789
Thanks everyone, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me and I'll definately look into the places you have suggested.

I hadn't thought about NYU because I had assumed (clearly, wrongly) that there wouldn't be much point studying EU law outside Europe. Do you think Harvard would be good for EU law also?

Thank you all again!
Thanks everyone, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me and I'll definately look into the places you have suggested.

I hadn't thought about NYU because I had assumed (clearly, wrongly) that there wouldn't be much point studying EU law outside Europe. Do you think Harvard would be good for EU law also?

Thank you all again!
quote
Thanks everyone, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me and I'll definately look into the places you have suggested.

I hadn't thought about NYU because I had assumed (clearly, wrongly) that there wouldn't be much point studying EU law outside Europe. Do you think Harvard would be good for EU law also?

Thank you all again!


As far as I know Harvard is not particulary famous for European law (since Joseph H. H. Weiler has left for NYU). However, Harvard is said to be an excellent place for antitrust law.

In the US, also Michigan has a very good reputation for EU law (Weiler was there after his time at the EUI/Florence and before he left for Harvard. By the way: Weiler certainly is great, but [university] life keeps on going without him as well. Moreover, Weiler is not what one would call a "practical" lawyer.)
<blockquote>Thanks everyone, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me and I'll definately look into the places you have suggested.

I hadn't thought about NYU because I had assumed (clearly, wrongly) that there wouldn't be much point studying EU law outside Europe. Do you think Harvard would be good for EU law also?

Thank you all again!</blockquote>

As far as I know Harvard is not particulary famous for European law (since Joseph H. H. Weiler has left for NYU). However, Harvard is said to be an excellent place for antitrust law.

In the US, also Michigan has a very good reputation for EU law (Weiler was there after his time at the EUI/Florence and before he left for Harvard. By the way: Weiler certainly is great, but [university] life keeps on going without him as well. Moreover, Weiler is not what one would call a "practical" lawyer.)
quote
Interalia
Thanks everyone, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me and I'll definately look into the places you have suggested.

I hadn't thought about NYU because I had assumed (clearly, wrongly) that there wouldn't be much point studying EU law outside Europe. Do you think Harvard would be good for EU law also?

Thank you all again!


As far as I know Harvard is not particulary famous for European law (since Joseph H. H. Weiler has left for NYU). However, Harvard is said to be an excellent place for antitrust law.

In the US, also Michigan has a very good reputation for EU law (Weiler was there after his time at the EUI/Florence and before he left for Harvard. By the way: Weiler certainly is great, but [university] life keeps on going without him as well. Moreover, Weiler is not what one would call a "practical" lawyer.)


I disagree with this. I think Weiler is immersely practical, just not in the way that most lawyers normally think. Weiler - in my opinion - is a legal realist. He seeks to find out how rules are really applied in the real world where power - especially in the international context - is a fact of life. He specializes in exposing the fact that the similarly neutral provisions in the EU treaties are not really that neutral after all. His speciality is exposing the hidden power considerations within the treaties themselves. Yes, this is a step above what lawyers normally do which is to blindly interpret the provisions as they are written - without regard to the larger considerations, but Weller's contribution - at least to my education - was to make me see past the literialist crap and think about how to really draft provisions which give my side a winning advantage without the other side knowing about it. He single handedly got me interested in game theory and contract and negotiation theory and the use of mathematics in law. (Don't worry his course will not require you to have advanced mathematical knowledge, it just exposes you to the possibilities which economics and mathematics hold for a lawyer).

While the above might see theoretical, it actually has immerse practical uses. If you could more or less predict how sides are going to react - using game theory - to certain ways of drafting a provision, you can manipulate the balance of power in a shareholder agreement - in company law - for example to your client's advantage without the other side ever knowing it.
<blockquote><blockquote>Thanks everyone, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me and I'll definately look into the places you have suggested.

I hadn't thought about NYU because I had assumed (clearly, wrongly) that there wouldn't be much point studying EU law outside Europe. Do you think Harvard would be good for EU law also?

Thank you all again!</blockquote>

As far as I know Harvard is not particulary famous for European law (since Joseph H. H. Weiler has left for NYU). However, Harvard is said to be an excellent place for antitrust law.

In the US, also Michigan has a very good reputation for EU law (Weiler was there after his time at the EUI/Florence and before he left for Harvard. By the way: Weiler certainly is great, but [university] life keeps on going without him as well. Moreover, Weiler is not what one would call a "practical" lawyer.)</blockquote>

I disagree with this. I think Weiler is immersely practical, just not in the way that most lawyers normally think. Weiler - in my opinion - is a legal realist. He seeks to find out how rules are really applied in the real world where power - especially in the international context - is a fact of life. He specializes in exposing the fact that the similarly neutral provisions in the EU treaties are not really that neutral after all. His speciality is exposing the hidden power considerations within the treaties themselves. Yes, this is a step above what lawyers normally do which is to blindly interpret the provisions as they are written - without regard to the larger considerations, but Weller's contribution - at least to my education - was to make me see past the literialist crap and think about how to really draft provisions which give my side a winning advantage without the other side knowing about it. He single handedly got me interested in game theory and contract and negotiation theory and the use of mathematics in law. (Don't worry his course will not require you to have advanced mathematical knowledge, it just exposes you to the possibilities which economics and mathematics hold for a lawyer).

While the above might see theoretical, it actually has immerse practical uses. If you could more or less predict how sides are going to react - using game theory - to certain ways of drafting a provision, you can manipulate the balance of power in a shareholder agreement - in company law - for example to your client's advantage without the other side ever knowing it.
quote
Interalia
The other advantage of studying competition law in the US, even if it's EU competition law is that competition law is one of those fields which is - by it's nature - interdisciplinary, a fact that many uk universities with the exception of UCL, KCL and LSE fail to grasp.

Studying in a place like NYU, allows you to take specially tailored economics modules for lawyers, like quantitative methods and "law and economics" I think this would help you immensely in understanding competition law. If you're staying in the UK, I think KCL has the best mix of modules for competition law. I know I earlier recommended oxford but I missed out the part about you wanted to specialize in competition law. KCL is pretty well regarded - so even though there is a drop of prestige of oxford, I think it will still be by a livable amount - and it really has modules which teach you about the economics of competition law and how this relates to the legal provisions.
The other advantage of studying competition law in the US, even if it's EU competition law is that competition law is one of those fields which is - by it's nature - interdisciplinary, a fact that many uk universities with the exception of UCL, KCL and LSE fail to grasp.

Studying in a place like NYU, allows you to take specially tailored economics modules for lawyers, like quantitative methods and "law and economics" I think this would help you immensely in understanding competition law. If you're staying in the UK, I think KCL has the best mix of modules for competition law. I know I earlier recommended oxford but I missed out the part about you wanted to specialize in competition law. KCL is pretty well regarded - so even though there is a drop of prestige of oxford, I think it will still be by a livable amount - and it really has modules which teach you about the economics of competition law and how this relates to the legal provisions.
quote
Thanks everyone, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me and I'll definately look into the places you have suggested.

I hadn't thought about NYU because I had assumed (clearly, wrongly) that there wouldn't be much point studying EU law outside Europe. Do you think Harvard would be good for EU law also?

Thank you all again!


As far as I know Harvard is not particulary famous for European law (since Joseph H. H. Weiler has left for NYU). However, Harvard is said to be an excellent place for antitrust law.

In the US, also Michigan has a very good reputation for EU law (Weiler was there after his time at the EUI/Florence and before he left for Harvard. By the way: Weiler certainly is great, but [university] life keeps on going without him as well. Moreover, Weiler is not what one would call a "practical" lawyer.)


I disagree with this. I think Weiler is immersely practical, just not in the way that most lawyers normally think.


Dear Interalia,

I think you misunderstood my statement. Actually, you repeated in better understandable terms and elaborated on what I had written before. Thanks for that. By saying that Weiler isn't a "practical" lawyer I had intended to point at the fact that what he is doing is quite different from what corporate or commercial lawyers working in big firms are usually doing throughout their day. Regarding the practical implications of his unorthodox approach, however, you seem to be far better informed than me and I thank you for sharing your insights! Did you study at Harvard or NYU?
<blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>Thanks everyone, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me and I'll definately look into the places you have suggested.

I hadn't thought about NYU because I had assumed (clearly, wrongly) that there wouldn't be much point studying EU law outside Europe. Do you think Harvard would be good for EU law also?

Thank you all again!</blockquote>

As far as I know Harvard is not particulary famous for European law (since Joseph H. H. Weiler has left for NYU). However, Harvard is said to be an excellent place for antitrust law.

In the US, also Michigan has a very good reputation for EU law (Weiler was there after his time at the EUI/Florence and before he left for Harvard. By the way: Weiler certainly is great, but [university] life keeps on going without him as well. Moreover, Weiler is not what one would call a "practical" lawyer.)</blockquote>

I disagree with this. I think Weiler is immersely practical, just not in the way that most lawyers normally think. </blockquote>

Dear Interalia,

I think you misunderstood my statement. Actually, you repeated in better understandable terms and elaborated on what I had written before. Thanks for that. By saying that Weiler isn't a "practical" lawyer I had intended to point at the fact that what he is doing is quite different from what corporate or commercial lawyers working in big firms are usually doing throughout their day. Regarding the practical implications of his unorthodox approach, however, you seem to be far better informed than me and I thank you for sharing your insights! Did you study at Harvard or NYU?
quote
Interalia

Dear Interalia,

I think you misunderstood my statement. Actually, you repeated in better understandable terms and elaborated on what I had written before. Thanks for that. By saying that Weiler isn't a "practical" lawyer I had intended to point at the fact that what he is doing is quite different from what corporate or commercial lawyers working in big firms are usually doing throughout their day. Regarding the practical implications of his unorthodox approach, however, you seem to be far better informed than me and I thank you for sharing your insights! Did you study at Harvard or NYU?


Nopes, I have never applied to either of those universities you mentioned. Weiler taught me EU Law as a visiting Professor in my home university when I was an undergraduate.

Regarding my interpretation of the word 'practical', yes I took it to mean something different from what you meant to say, I apologize for that. I took it to mean that what Weiler teaches is only of theoretical significance without real world importance. I sought to show that this was not true and his approach is actually advantageous to the practising lawyer. And to me - personally - isn't that what doing a LLM is really about? If one is only going to learn only the things one would eventually learn in practice anyway, then I fail to see the tangible benefit of the considerable time and expense needed to do a LLM. It might be argued that a LLM degree from a better university might be useful in future job applications but personally I'm pretty suspicious of the claim. At least judging from this board and from my personal experience, one's undergraduate degree, connections and more importantly work experience seem to carry much more weight in job hirings than the number of advanced law degrees one possesses.
<blockquote>
Dear Interalia,

I think you misunderstood my statement. Actually, you repeated in better understandable terms and elaborated on what I had written before. Thanks for that. By saying that Weiler isn't a "practical" lawyer I had intended to point at the fact that what he is doing is quite different from what corporate or commercial lawyers working in big firms are usually doing throughout their day. Regarding the practical implications of his unorthodox approach, however, you seem to be far better informed than me and I thank you for sharing your insights! Did you study at Harvard or NYU?</blockquote>

Nopes, I have never applied to either of those universities you mentioned. Weiler taught me EU Law as a visiting Professor in my home university when I was an undergraduate.

Regarding my interpretation of the word 'practical', yes I took it to mean something different from what you meant to say, I apologize for that. I took it to mean that what Weiler teaches is only of theoretical significance without real world importance. I sought to show that this was not true and his approach is actually advantageous to the practising lawyer. And to me - personally - isn't that what doing a LLM is really about? If one is only going to learn only the things one would eventually learn in practice anyway, then I fail to see the tangible benefit of the considerable time and expense needed to do a LLM. It might be argued that a LLM degree from a better university might be useful in future job applications but personally I'm pretty suspicious of the claim. At least judging from this board and from my personal experience, one's undergraduate degree, connections and more importantly work experience seem to carry much more weight in job hirings than the number of advanced law degrees one possesses.
quote
Dear All Above,
You might find it helpful to look at the Competition Law Scholars Forum website www.clasf.org for some guidance as to which academics and which institutions in Europe specialise in competition law.

regards
alan riley

Professor of Law
Director LLM Programme
City Law School
City University,
4 Grays Inn Place
London
Electronic Mail: alan.riley.1@city.ac.uk
Dear All Above,
You might find it helpful to look at the Competition Law Scholars Forum website www.clasf.org for some guidance as to which academics and which institutions in Europe specialise in competition law.

regards
alan riley

Professor of Law
Director LLM Programme
City Law School
City University,
4 Grays Inn Place
London
Electronic Mail: alan.riley.1@city.ac.uk
quote
lilou
Actually it is not true that Joseph Weiler is only at NYU... He created an LLM program together with Miguel Maduro (ex-advocate general at the ECJ and now Prof at the EUI in Florence) specialised in EU and international law in Lisbon.
This is truly the best in Europe as you have among the best specialists teaching there.
Whoever is interesting in EU law should have a look at this program. This is just amazing.
http://www.fd.lisboa.ucp.pt/site/custom/template/ucptplfac.asp?sspageID=3294〈=2
Actually it is not true that Joseph Weiler is only at NYU... He created an LLM program together with Miguel Maduro (ex-advocate general at the ECJ and now Prof at the EUI in Florence) specialised in EU and international law in Lisbon.
This is truly the best in Europe as you have among the best specialists teaching there.
Whoever is interesting in EU law should have a look at this program. This is just amazing.
http://www.fd.lisboa.ucp.pt/site/custom/template/ucptplfac.asp?sspageID=3294〈=2
quote
lilou
Someone told me the link I posted was not working so here it is again:
http://www.fd.lisboa.ucp.pt/site/custom/template/ucptplfachome.asp?SSPAGEID=3141&lang=2

or here:
http://www.fd.lisboa.ucp.pt/site/custom/template/ucptplfac.asp?sspageID=3294&lang=2

Look at the list of Professors. It's impressive. I don't think one can find that anywhere else...
Someone told me the link I posted was not working so here it is again:
http://www.fd.lisboa.ucp.pt/site/custom/template/ucptplfachome.asp?SSPAGEID=3141&lang=2

or here:
http://www.fd.lisboa.ucp.pt/site/custom/template/ucptplfac.asp?sspageID=3294&lang=2

Look at the list of Professors. It's impressive. I don't think one can find that anywhere else...
quote
Kerfuffle
The Lisbon programme appears good, but looking at the program it's very limited, and the vast majority of professors seem to just be giving one-off seminars.
The Lisbon programme appears good, but looking at the program it's very limited, and the vast majority of professors seem to just be giving one-off seminars.
quote
lilou
Very limited???!!!
All professors are coming for 12 hours seminars.
You have all the best specialists there.
It combines both EU law and international law so that you have the fullest range of topics while being specialised. But basically after this LLM you do what you want on the EU/international scene...
You have Weiler's team (Weiler (NYU), Streho (Sciences po) Areilza (IE spain) Bradley (European Parliament) Chalmers (LSE) Maduro (EUI)) on EU institutional law and internal market
then you have Walkers (former EUI Edinburgh), Weatherhill (Oxford), Kumm (NYU) Halberstam (Michigan), Posner (Chicago), Idot (Paris II), Eeckout (King's College), Mavroidis (Columbia), Bogdandy (Max planck) Davies (Oxford), Hesselink (Amsterdam), Rose-Ackerman (Yale), Besson (Fribourg), Regan (Michigan), Lasser (Cornell), Boyle (Duke), Verbeke/Ribeiro (Harvard) and I miss certainly some but you can check the website by yourself.

So basically, if you ever heard about EU law you ve heard about this people.
It combines the best of Europe and the best of the US (NYU,Yale, Harvard, Cornell, Chicago, Michigan, Duke...).
So tell me which program is as rich as this one...

But really, I do not see who could say this LLM is... limited... in any possible way...
Very limited???!!!
All professors are coming for 12 hours seminars.
You have all the best specialists there.
It combines both EU law and international law so that you have the fullest range of topics while being specialised. But basically after this LLM you do what you want on the EU/international scene...
You have Weiler's team (Weiler (NYU), Streho (Sciences po) Areilza (IE spain) Bradley (European Parliament) Chalmers (LSE) Maduro (EUI)) on EU institutional law and internal market
then you have Walkers (former EUI Edinburgh), Weatherhill (Oxford), Kumm (NYU) Halberstam (Michigan), Posner (Chicago), Idot (Paris II), Eeckout (King's College), Mavroidis (Columbia), Bogdandy (Max planck) Davies (Oxford), Hesselink (Amsterdam), Rose-Ackerman (Yale), Besson (Fribourg), Regan (Michigan), Lasser (Cornell), Boyle (Duke), Verbeke/Ribeiro (Harvard) and I miss certainly some but you can check the website by yourself.

So basically, if you ever heard about EU law you ve heard about this people.
It combines the best of Europe and the best of the US (NYU,Yale, Harvard, Cornell, Chicago, Michigan, Duke...).
So tell me which program is as rich as this one...

But really, I do not see who could say this LLM is... limited... in any possible way...
quote
Interalia
Very limited???!!!
All professors are coming for 12 hours seminars.
You have all the best specialists there.
It combines both EU law and international law so that you have the fullest range of topics while being specialised. But basically after this LLM you do what you want on the EU/international scene...
You have Weiler's team (Weiler (NYU), Streho (Sciences po) Areilza (IE spain) Bradley (European Parliament) Chalmers (LSE) Maduro (EUI)) on EU institutional law and internal market
then you have Walkers (former EUI Edinburgh), Weatherhill (Oxford), Kumm (NYU) Halberstam (Michigan), Posner (Chicago), Idot (Paris II), Eeckout (King's College), Mavroidis (Columbia), Bogdandy (Max planck) Davies (Oxford), Hesselink (Amsterdam), Rose-Ackerman (Yale), Besson (Fribourg), Regan (Michigan), Lasser (Cornell), Boyle (Duke), Verbeke/Ribeiro (Harvard) and I miss certainly some but you can check the website by yourself.

So basically, if you ever heard about EU law you ve heard about this people.
It combines the best of Europe and the best of the US (NYU,Yale, Harvard, Cornell, Chicago, Michigan, Duke...).
So tell me which program is as rich as this one...

But really, I do not see who could say this LLM is... limited... in any possible way...


I think what Kerf meant was that the concept of a 12 hr seminar seems limited. Indeed most law school courses go for much longer than 12 contact hrs.
<blockquote>Very limited???!!!
All professors are coming for 12 hours seminars.
You have all the best specialists there.
It combines both EU law and international law so that you have the fullest range of topics while being specialised. But basically after this LLM you do what you want on the EU/international scene...
You have Weiler's team (Weiler (NYU), Streho (Sciences po) Areilza (IE spain) Bradley (European Parliament) Chalmers (LSE) Maduro (EUI)) on EU institutional law and internal market
then you have Walkers (former EUI Edinburgh), Weatherhill (Oxford), Kumm (NYU) Halberstam (Michigan), Posner (Chicago), Idot (Paris II), Eeckout (King's College), Mavroidis (Columbia), Bogdandy (Max planck) Davies (Oxford), Hesselink (Amsterdam), Rose-Ackerman (Yale), Besson (Fribourg), Regan (Michigan), Lasser (Cornell), Boyle (Duke), Verbeke/Ribeiro (Harvard) and I miss certainly some but you can check the website by yourself.

So basically, if you ever heard about EU law you ve heard about this people.
It combines the best of Europe and the best of the US (NYU,Yale, Harvard, Cornell, Chicago, Michigan, Duke...).
So tell me which program is as rich as this one...

But really, I do not see who could say this LLM is... limited... in any possible way...</blockquote>

I think what Kerf meant was that the concept of a 12 hr seminar seems limited. Indeed most law school courses go for much longer than 12 contact hrs.
quote
Baziel
College of Europe in Bruges (Belgium) is very highly regarded when it comes to European law...
College of Europe in Bruges (Belgium) is very highly regarded when it comes to European law...
quote
lilou
Hello to all :-)
College of Europe is a reference. I think it is more if you are sure you want to become a practitioner.
EUI is more for a PhD although LLM is possible too, but most people already have one when they go there.

As for Lisbon: I did my LLM in legal theory in a program based on the same principle and it has been the best year of my life. To have top professors with different backgrounds, points of view, etc. this is really what I consider the most valuable.
I think that EU law and international law are particularly suitable for such an approach and it is great that such a program has been created.
Hello to all :-)
College of Europe is a reference. I think it is more if you are sure you want to become a practitioner.
EUI is more for a PhD although LLM is possible too, but most people already have one when they go there.

As for Lisbon: I did my LLM in legal theory in a program based on the same principle and it has been the best year of my life. To have top professors with different backgrounds, points of view, etc. this is really what I consider the most valuable.
I think that EU law and international law are particularly suitable for such an approach and it is great that such a program has been created.
quote

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