Why NOT to study in Holland


Wheretogo_
Oh my I hope this is not the same with other dutch Universities such as Groningen!
Oh my I hope this is not the same with other dutch Universities such as Groningen!
AgentSmith
I have studied at the three biggest and best ranked universities in Holland. I've also studied at a university in the UK that does not appear on any ranking list. None of the three Dutch universities can match the customer service, professionality and quality of education provided by the British university. So, if you are a non-EU citizen and have to pay for education, know that the prices of education in the NL are close to those in the UK, but the quality of education is 10 times less than in the UK.
I have studied at the three biggest and best ranked universities in Holland. I've also studied at a university in the UK that does not appear on any ranking list. None of the three Dutch universities can match the customer service, professionality and quality of education provided by the British university. So, if you are a non-EU citizen and have to pay for education, know that the prices of education in the NL are close to those in the UK, but the quality of education is 10 times less than in the UK.
Wheretogo_
I have studied at the three biggest and best ranked universities in Holland. I've also studied at a university in the UK that does not appear on any ranking list. None of the three Dutch universities can match the customer service, professionality and quality of education provided by the British university. So, if you are a non-EU citizen and have to pay for education, know that the prices of education in the NL are close to those in the UK, but the quality of education is 10 times less than in the UK.


Any views on Groningen agent? Btw I am EU so the fees are very good...
<blockquote>I have studied at the three biggest and best ranked universities in Holland. I've also studied at a university in the UK that does not appear on any ranking list. None of the three Dutch universities can match the customer service, professionality and quality of education provided by the British university. So, if you are a non-EU citizen and have to pay for education, know that the prices of education in the NL are close to those in the UK, but the quality of education is 10 times less than in the UK.</blockquote>

Any views on Groningen agent? Btw I am EU so the fees are very good...
AgentSmith
Any views on Groningen agent? Btw I am EU so the fees are very good...

Nothing about the University. The town itself is in the middle of nowhere, 2 hours from the Randstad, which means you'll be mostly stuck there for a whole year...
Any views on Groningen agent? Btw I am EU so the fees are very good...</blockquote>

Nothing about the University. The town itself is in the middle of nowhere, 2 hours from the Randstad, which means you'll be mostly stuck there for a whole year...
Wheretogo_
Groningen is just a possibility for me as I am still waiting to hear from them and also my first choice of Uni in the UK but from the website and the numerous testimonials it seems the LLM degree is very well organised so I am hopeful that it could be good :)
Groningen is just a possibility for me as I am still waiting to hear from them and also my first choice of Uni in the UK but from the website and the numerous testimonials it seems the LLM degree is very well organised so I am hopeful that it could be good :)
AgentSmith
With regard to Erasmus:

All the big commercial law firms are located in Amsterdam, so why would you study in Rotterdam? I am not saying the University of Amsterdam is a good university (bad customer service, they treat student like numbers, chaotic, arrogant professors), but you might want to be more strategic in your choice. Plus Erasmus isn't ranked well either and Rotterdam is not a student city, in most other cities you can just cycle to classes, Rotterdam is a huge city, you'll need to use the metro etc.
With regard to Erasmus:

All the big commercial law firms are located in Amsterdam, so why would you study in Rotterdam? I am not saying the University of Amsterdam is a good university (bad customer service, they treat student like numbers, chaotic, arrogant professors), but you might want to be more strategic in your choice. Plus Erasmus isn't ranked well either and Rotterdam is not a student city, in most other cities you can just cycle to classes, Rotterdam is a huge city, you'll need to use the metro etc.


AgentSmith
Groningen is just a possibility for me as I am still waiting to hear from them and also my first choice of Uni in the UK but from the website and the numerous testimonials it seems the LLM degree is very well organised so I am hopeful that it could be good :)


Do youself a favour and go to the UK if you have the option. Don't make the mistake to study in Groningen if you can study in the UK.
<blockquote>Groningen is just a possibility for me as I am still waiting to hear from them and also my first choice of Uni in the UK but from the website and the numerous testimonials it seems the LLM degree is very well organised so I am hopeful that it could be good :)</blockquote>

Do youself a favour and go to the UK if you have the option. Don't make the mistake to study in Groningen if you can study in the UK.
Wheretogo_
I think you are right.

I am not talking about any University in the UK..its Durham and the fees are 5.900 pounds for EU so all in all a good deal these days.

The programme at Groningen looks very good though and in my area of expertise and 1.835 euros a year. But I am tending to Durham heavily!
I think you are right.

I am not talking about any University in the UK..its Durham and the fees are 5.900 pounds for EU so all in all a good deal these days.

The programme at Groningen looks very good though and in my area of expertise and €1.835 euros a year. But I am tending to Durham heavily!
AgentSmith
I think you are right.

I am not talking about any University in the UK..its Durham and the fees are 5.900 pounds for EU so all in all a good deal these days.

The programme at Groningen looks very good though and in my area of expertise and 1.835 euros a year. But I am tending to Durham heavily!


Dude! Durham is one of the best law schools in England after Cambridge and Oxford, why are you even in this thread ;)
<blockquote>I think you are right.

I am not talking about any University in the UK..its Durham and the fees are 5.900 pounds for EU so all in all a good deal these days.

The programme at Groningen looks very good though and in my area of expertise and €1.835 euros a year. But I am tending to Durham heavily!</blockquote>

Dude! Durham is one of the best law schools in England after Cambridge and Oxford, why are you even in this thread ;)
Wheretogo_
I know lol..

I applied to an MSc at Durham (not law as their LLM is very general) and LLM in Energy and climate law in Groningen! Both look very good!
Needless to say that one of the leading experts in energy law worldwide, Martha Roggenkamp, teaches a couple of modules in the course at Groningen and she is very very good! But I can always buy the book ....
I know lol..

I applied to an MSc at Durham (not law as their LLM is very general) and LLM in Energy and climate law in Groningen! Both look very good!
Needless to say that one of the leading experts in energy law worldwide, Martha Roggenkamp, teaches a couple of modules in the course at Groningen and she is very very good! But I can always buy the book ....
chopedsuey
Concerning Groningen University. I was an undergraduate student there from 2002-2005, it was the most unpleasant experience of my life.

The problem is both the nature of the university and the townies especially the people of Groningen they hate the students, and its not a place l would like to live or ever go again to - ohh my God! Groningers are like evil blood sucking gargoyles!

I shall explain this in the next posts.
Concerning Groningen University. I was an undergraduate student there from 2002-2005, it was the most unpleasant experience of my life.

The problem is both the nature of the university and the townies especially the people of Groningen they hate the students, and its not a place l would like to live or ever go again to - ohh my God! Groningers are like evil blood sucking gargoyles!

I shall explain this in the next posts.


chopedsuey
Groningen law school is quite good, its actually very good. They have a lot of high quality electives in economics, social sciences and legal theory. Groningen when l was there, had an excellent legal / social modeling stream of electives, which l was fortunate to have encountered. Their EU, civil law and environmental law groups are very strong, and when l ran away, they were investing heavily in criminology and law enforcement studies. I have heard recently the have been expanding their programs, and they are attractive to Dutch students.
Groningen law school is quite good, its actually very good. They have a lot of high quality electives in economics, social sciences and legal theory. Groningen when l was there, had an excellent legal / social modeling stream of electives, which l was fortunate to have encountered. Their EU, civil law and environmental law groups are very strong, and when l ran away, they were investing heavily in criminology and law enforcement studies. I have heard recently the have been expanding their programs, and they are attractive to Dutch students.
chopedsuey
Dutch law programs require you to follow even with their rubbish Ba-Ma implemented structure a core set of courses, which you are required to graduate with (much like the UK) and you can then elect certain extra minors which great, as you get a lot of extra knowledge and technical skills that are not in the main course. I had that additional experience. But Dutch uni's are not very easy going places, you have to be careful and play a lot of politics to survive there, much like in the UK. Many international and EU students who were there, were there for the MA / LLM programs, which personally l though were quite good, and the facilities were excellent much better than the red-bricks and the top glass and plates in the UK. Yet every student, even Dutch students were unhappy.
Dutch law programs require you to follow even with their rubbish Ba-Ma implemented structure a core set of courses, which you are required to graduate with (much like the UK) and you can then elect certain extra minors which great, as you get a lot of extra knowledge and technical skills that are not in the main course. I had that additional experience. But Dutch uni's are not very easy going places, you have to be careful and play a lot of politics to survive there, much like in the UK. Many international and EU students who were there, were there for the MA / LLM programs, which personally l though were quite good, and the facilities were excellent much better than the red-bricks and the top glass and plates in the UK. Yet every student, even Dutch students were unhappy.
chopedsuey
The problem is that Dutch education is very "stug" or translated into English, inflexible. I saw many international students from China and India coming for the EU law degrees as they are in much demand back home (or so they told me) and they took on average three years to complete the course that a Dutch student took 2 years and 3 months to complete. That caused a great deal of resentment, and a lot of misunderstandings. But the truth is that, many of the students who came, Dutch staff members first did not trust their transcripts of their course work (not grades - like UK uni's Dutch uni's check your coursework) and they felt that you as an international student had to be encultured into a different way of learning the material and thinking about the problem, so they picked on you. Not because they hated you, because it was about learning, learning takes time and many Dutch students have been in school for well over a decade (yes it takes on average 15 to 17 years to finish a law degree - l wonder how their parents pay - as exampled by Groningen and staff 'know the students" in more ways than one), whilst international students have not, so they want to "know" how you learn, if you fail, don't worry, the point is to stand up and try again, that really is what they want. But that goes very badly down if you are paying international fees, as an extra year costs extra money.
The problem is that Dutch education is very "stug" or translated into English, inflexible. I saw many international students from China and India coming for the EU law degrees as they are in much demand back home (or so they told me) and they took on average three years to complete the course that a Dutch student took 2 years and 3 months to complete. That caused a great deal of resentment, and a lot of misunderstandings. But the truth is that, many of the students who came, Dutch staff members first did not trust their transcripts of their course work (not grades - like UK uni's Dutch uni's check your coursework) and they felt that you as an international student had to be encultured into a different way of learning the material and thinking about the problem, so they picked on you. Not because they hated you, because it was about learning, learning takes time and many Dutch students have been in school for well over a decade (yes it takes on average 15 to 17 years to finish a law degree - l wonder how their parents pay - as exampled by Groningen and staff 'know the students" in more ways than one), whilst international students have not, so they want to "know" how you learn, if you fail, don't worry, the point is to stand up and try again, that really is what they want. But that goes very badly down if you are paying international fees, as an extra year costs extra money.
chopedsuey
My experiences were terrible in Groningen law school although it was a formative experience, and l was amazed at the high quality of facilities and funding that was available, l would not recommend a Dutch uni until the LLM stage. If you can take 2-3 years of punishment it may be worth it. For the undergrad, after three years l fled to greener pastures - l went to Leicester one of the last red bricks in the UK, and it was am equally unpleasant educational experience. Law schools are that way, and staff members just like to hurt students to see at which point they break. The sad thing is that lawyers are not much in demand today, so all this toughing up is a waste, either in the UK or Holland. In my view law is not a prestigious subject or today, due to globalization a "profession" in the traditional sense. There are good LLM programs in Holland, but the dutch education system could learn a lot from the UK. Undergraduate course durations can last well over 10 years - is it worth it?
My experiences were terrible in Groningen law school although it was a formative experience, and l was amazed at the high quality of facilities and funding that was available, l would not recommend a Dutch uni until the LLM stage. If you can take 2-3 years of punishment it may be worth it. For the undergrad, after three years l fled to greener pastures - l went to Leicester one of the last red bricks in the UK, and it was am equally unpleasant educational experience. Law schools are that way, and staff members just like to hurt students to see at which point they break. The sad thing is that lawyers are not much in demand today, so all this toughing up is a waste, either in the UK or Holland. In my view law is not a prestigious subject or today, due to globalization a "profession" in the traditional sense. There are good LLM programs in Holland, but the dutch education system could learn a lot from the UK. Undergraduate course durations can last well over 10 years - is it worth it?
chopedsuey
Groningen has its plus points, it has good facilities and a good e-libary, and research opportunities (when l was there, l have been told they have cut back on field research lately) - there are really good programs, some of them are a bit iconoclastic and borrow from different fields like their economics tract - but it does teach well at the LLM level (not at the LLB level). The only problem is that there is a hard core of staff that have a problem with foreign students, especially in the law department as they don't perceive you as being equal to Dutch students or know the way they teach and check - yes Dutch schools check just like in the UK... don't plagiarize the Dutch are much harder than in the UK.
Groningen has its plus points, it has good facilities and a good e-libary, and research opportunities (when l was there, l have been told they have cut back on field research lately) - there are really good programs, some of them are a bit iconoclastic and borrow from different fields like their economics tract - but it does teach well at the LLM level (not at the LLB level). The only problem is that there is a hard core of staff that have a problem with foreign students, especially in the law department as they don't perceive you as being equal to Dutch students or know the way they teach and check - yes Dutch schools check just like in the UK... don't plagiarize the Dutch are much harder than in the UK.
chopedsuey
Like in the UK, the Dutch law schools at the LLM level see international students as ill equipped to "learn" the material as they are not encultured in their way of thinking and studying and, (sneaky dutch) checking for plagiarism - l can tell you at LLB level how tough they were on that. All in all, Dutch schools are quite good, not the best, but good. In many ways the teaching is of a lower standard than in the UK, but those who finish the LLM are about the same as the UK LLB Hon or LLM level at a new university. However law school is from my experience a pointless and tiresome journey, at the end of it, its not a job maker, as they have been offshored to India. I sounding racist, or anything l am being truthful. Going for energy law is not a complete tract, you need to balance your learning options... law is too narrow a field of study, sorry... personal opinion to waste so many years of toil and pain for what?
Like in the UK, the Dutch law schools at the LLM level see international students as ill equipped to "learn" the material as they are not encultured in their way of thinking and studying and, (sneaky dutch) checking for plagiarism - l can tell you at LLB level how tough they were on that. All in all, Dutch schools are quite good, not the best, but good. In many ways the teaching is of a lower standard than in the UK, but those who finish the LLM are about the same as the UK LLB Hon or LLM level at a new university. However law school is from my experience a pointless and tiresome journey, at the end of it, its not a job maker, as they have been offshored to India. I sounding racist, or anything l am being truthful. Going for energy law is not a complete tract, you need to balance your learning options... law is too narrow a field of study, sorry... personal opinion to waste so many years of toil and pain for what?
chopedsuey
When l went to Leicester, l was treated as a "idiot" who knew nothing, and was regularly called a "smart arse" by staff, for talking too much in seminars. I survived and after four years l graduated with a LLB Hon. In all the whole debacle was awful, but at the end l have something for it. International students in Dutch uni's will pass, after 3 years and have something for their efforts, the point l am trying to make, long-windedly, is, does the employment market want that degree? I was thinking of going back to Dundee as they also have a LLM in oil and gas law but every lawyer l talked to, said, you must be kidding? When you do an LLM, where-ever you do it, think about the outcomes before you start, as this economy is tough, and the legal profession is changing rapidly, there is no need / better there is a need for a different type of lawyer, than those traditional lawyers that law schools trickle out per se today. If you go to a European Uni, a state one, on average you get a good education, it takes time and money, but at the end it comes down to finding a job - if your daddy can get you into the UN then that is okay, if not waste not your time and effort.
When l went to Leicester, l was treated as a "idiot" who knew nothing, and was regularly called a "smart arse" by staff, for talking too much in seminars. I survived and after four years l graduated with a LLB Hon. In all the whole debacle was awful, but at the end l have something for it. International students in Dutch uni's will pass, after 3 years and have something for their efforts, the point l am trying to make, long-windedly, is, does the employment market want that degree? I was thinking of going back to Dundee as they also have a LLM in oil and gas law but every lawyer l talked to, said, you must be kidding? When you do an LLM, where-ever you do it, think about the outcomes before you start, as this economy is tough, and the legal profession is changing rapidly, there is no need / better there is a need for a different type of lawyer, than those traditional lawyers that law schools trickle out per se today. If you go to a European Uni, a state one, on average you get a good education, it takes time and money, but at the end it comes down to finding a job - if your daddy can get you into the UN then that is okay, if not waste not your time and effort.
chopedsuey
Finally about Groningen - its too isolated. It takes about 2-4 hours by the train, from Amsterdam and its a small provincial town full of air-headed blood sucking gargoyles who hate students and as they are fine Protestants, hate foreigners (albeit Wilders is Jewish pretend catholic and knowing holland a member of the secret police it is rumored... ha ha ; ) the town hates YOU! The police hate you MUCH MUCH MORE! And above that, the private security people there, are like the Gestapo - honestly they watch you like hawks.
I know international students who started living outside the city because it was too hard to live inside - most of they were science students, and they hated it. A big problem for me, was buying food - the only international food store is Jewish owned in Groningen, and as l am not European looking well you can guess it, l was not welcome, and not served - l even had to pay for rotten food and got shouted at. Groningen strangely enough has more Jews than many larger cities in holland in % terms and they are the type that racially profile you...
Finally about Groningen - its too isolated. It takes about 2-4 hours by the train, from Amsterdam and its a small provincial town full of air-headed blood sucking gargoyles who hate students and as they are fine Protestants, hate foreigners (albeit Wilders is Jewish pretend catholic and knowing holland a member of the secret police it is rumored... ha ha ; ) the town hates YOU! The police hate you MUCH MUCH MORE! And above that, the private security people there, are like the Gestapo - honestly they watch you like hawks.
I know international students who started living outside the city because it was too hard to live inside - most of they were science students, and they hated it. A big problem for me, was buying food - the only international food store is Jewish owned in Groningen, and as l am not European looking well you can guess it, l was not welcome, and not served - l even had to pay for rotten food and got shouted at. Groningen strangely enough has more Jews than many larger cities in holland in % terms and they are the type that racially profile you...
chopedsuey
You were not welcome in their shops, you were not welcome in their cafes, and you were not welcome to go out at night - l never went "clubbing" in a club as l was not Dutch looking enough - blue eyes, blond hair, pale skinned from smoking too much pot etcetera. So many international students were not welcome or allowed in clubs.

Also Groningen has a red light street, next to the 16th century Synagogue (which l find very unacceptable and very Wilders racist dutch...), is disrespectful of other people's religious views, considering that Northern Holland traditionally had many Jews living there. In fact may Protestants there are mixed up, l come from the Coast of Holland which is mixed catholic/protestant - we are born cynics sorry.
You were not welcome in their shops, you were not welcome in their cafes, and you were not welcome to go out at night - l never went "clubbing" in a club as l was not Dutch looking enough - blue eyes, blond hair, pale skinned from smoking too much pot etcetera. So many international students were not welcome or allowed in clubs.

Also Groningen has a red light street, next to the 16th century Synagogue (which l find very unacceptable and very Wilders racist dutch...), is disrespectful of other people's religious views, considering that Northern Holland traditionally had many Jews living there. In fact may Protestants there are mixed up, l come from the Coast of Holland which is mixed catholic/protestant - we are born cynics sorry.

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