Any personal experiences with the following universities?


jason_d

Sure it may not exist in the minds of all employers ~ but you'll have to be a fairly incompetent human resource professional in the NSW region not to know that UNSW and USyd are the toughest programs to get into. However, it might be that the hiring professional attended say MQ or UTS and that in itself might give you an implicit edge over other candidates since they may have a better understanding of the syllabus at those universities .

I'm not saying UNSW or USyd are better (no one can make that judgement unless they've trial all the programs). However, from an acceptance standpoint, UNSW and USyd are indeed the two hardest Law schools to get into - which in turns signifies their popularity and prestige. That in itself is not a subjective interpretation. And for those that get in - it's an explicit indication of their HSC results. For example, why is Harvard and Yale Law so popular? Because it's a known fact that people who make the cut into Harvard and Yale are intellectuals. Those schools attract, accepts, and graduates the top students in the country...

Indeed my experiences are anecdotal - this is because the initial post asked for our own experiences with the various universities... As I only attended USyd and UNSW, I can only offer my personal opinions of those two universities and the culture that exists there... Also since you asked for an elaboration ~ that's what I gave.

Like I mentioned earlier - each university offers a different learning experience. That's why it's important to visit the campus itself and get a general feel of the environment that you will be studying in.

Final post ~ Good Luck!!

Sure it may not exist in the minds of all employers ~ but you'll have to be a fairly incompetent human resource professional in the NSW region not to know that UNSW and USyd are the toughest programs to get into. However, it might be that the hiring professional attended say MQ or UTS and that in itself might give you an implicit edge over other candidates since they may have a better understanding of the syllabus at those universities .

I'm not saying UNSW or USyd are better (no one can make that judgement unless they've trial all the programs). However, from an acceptance standpoint, UNSW and USyd are indeed the two hardest Law schools to get into - which in turns signifies their popularity and prestige. That in itself is not a subjective interpretation. And for those that get in - it's an explicit indication of their HSC results. For example, why is Harvard and Yale Law so popular? Because it's a known fact that people who make the cut into Harvard and Yale are intellectuals. Those schools attract, accepts, and graduates the top students in the country...

Indeed my experiences are anecdotal - this is because the initial post asked for our own experiences with the various universities... As I only attended USyd and UNSW, I can only offer my personal opinions of those two universities and the culture that exists there... Also since you asked for an elaboration ~ that's what I gave.

Like I mentioned earlier - each university offers a different learning experience. That's why it's important to visit the campus itself and get a general feel of the environment that you will be studying in.

Final post ~ Good Luck!!



quote
lawmann

Hi,

Allow me to express my views on the current debate for whatever it is worth. I think I am qualified to comment having amassed 6 law degrees from UK including 4 LL.Ms.

Firstly, as far as European Law Schools are concerned, the University of Utrecht is the 2nd top ranked European University being placed at NO.42 in the World Ranking 2007. The top European University for 2007 World Ranking is University of Paris 06 at NO.39

Secondly, it is a universal known fact ( and elementary if I may add) that the LL.B is the most important undergraduate law degree which determines where and which jurisiction one wishes to practice law;

Thirdly, the LL.M does not add anything to the LL.B other than to enhance one's standing and give colour to one's CV. So it is important to choose a good law school of repute. You can take the cue from the Rhodes Scholars who normally go to the Universities of Cambridge, Oxford, Harvard & Yale or even Columbia. An LL.M from any one of these world class law schools will surpass 2 or more LL.Ms from other less prestigious law schools whether Europe or elsewhere. The rationale is simple. It is not the type of LL.M that is important. Who cares? It is secondary. What is important is the branding or privilege that one has attended Harvard, Cambridge..and so forth.
For e.g. If you put the "dunhill" brand on a cheap and loosy cotton shirt made in Timbuktu, it is still undoubtedly a dunhill shirt. Who cares about the material? dunhill is dunhill. So Cambridge is cambridge and Harvard is Harvard. In Hong Kong for e.g. if you apply for entry to the PCLL course ( equivalent to the Aussie GDLP), and everything being equal, a candidate with a 3rd class law degree from the University of Cambridge will be given priority for entry as opposed to someone with a 1st class law degree from a less prestigious University;

Fourthly, there are excellent lawyers and QCs with only the LL.B but no LL.Ms;

Fifthly, other than the University, in choosing an appropriate LL.M, go for a practice oriented one like the LL.M in Trial Advocacy offered by the Temple University, USA reputed to be the best in its class, if advocacy is your calling;

Sixthly, as far as Aussie Law Schools are concerned, as long as you choose one from the Group of 8, you can't go wrong. Not the others outside the group of 8. Melbourne and ANU are tops. Between these 2, it all depends on whether you prefer studying in Melbourne or Canberra. If you want to study in Sydney, then University of Sydney is the undisputed choice . Nothing comes close in Sydney. But if you like the sunshine coast and Australia Zoo, then the University of Queensland is the undisputed choice. In terms of ranking , UQ may even better Sydney. If you are thinking of New Zealand, then it has to be either the University of Auckland or the University of Otago. I would opt for Otago as it is NZ's 1st and oldest university with a history of 134 years, and a truly National University with campuses in every major NZ city;

Cheers.

Hi,

Allow me to express my views on the current debate for whatever it is worth. I think I am qualified to comment having amassed 6 law degrees from UK including 4 LL.Ms.

Firstly, as far as European Law Schools are concerned, the University of Utrecht is the 2nd top ranked European University being placed at NO.42 in the World Ranking 2007. The top European University for 2007 World Ranking is University of Paris 06 at NO.39

Secondly, it is a universal known fact ( and elementary if I may add) that the LL.B is the most important undergraduate law degree which determines where and which jurisiction one wishes to practice law;

Thirdly, the LL.M does not add anything to the LL.B other than to enhance one's standing and give colour to one's CV. So it is important to choose a good law school of repute. You can take the cue from the Rhodes Scholars who normally go to the Universities of Cambridge, Oxford, Harvard & Yale or even Columbia. An LL.M from any one of these world class law schools will surpass 2 or more LL.Ms from other less prestigious law schools whether Europe or elsewhere. The rationale is simple. It is not the type of LL.M that is important. Who cares? It is secondary. What is important is the branding or privilege that one has attended Harvard, Cambridge..and so forth.
For e.g. If you put the "dunhill" brand on a cheap and loosy cotton shirt made in Timbuktu, it is still undoubtedly a dunhill shirt. Who cares about the material? dunhill is dunhill. So Cambridge is cambridge and Harvard is Harvard. In Hong Kong for e.g. if you apply for entry to the PCLL course ( equivalent to the Aussie GDLP), and everything being equal, a candidate with a 3rd class law degree from the University of Cambridge will be given priority for entry as opposed to someone with a 1st class law degree from a less prestigious University;

Fourthly, there are excellent lawyers and QCs with only the LL.B but no LL.Ms;

Fifthly, other than the University, in choosing an appropriate LL.M, go for a practice oriented one like the LL.M in Trial Advocacy offered by the Temple University, USA reputed to be the best in its class, if advocacy is your calling;

Sixthly, as far as Aussie Law Schools are concerned, as long as you choose one from the Group of 8, you can't go wrong. Not the others outside the group of 8. Melbourne and ANU are tops. Between these 2, it all depends on whether you prefer studying in Melbourne or Canberra. If you want to study in Sydney, then University of Sydney is the undisputed choice . Nothing comes close in Sydney. But if you like the sunshine coast and Australia Zoo, then the University of Queensland is the undisputed choice. In terms of ranking , UQ may even better Sydney. If you are thinking of New Zealand, then it has to be either the University of Auckland or the University of Otago. I would opt for Otago as it is NZ's 1st and oldest university with a history of 134 years, and a truly National University with campuses in every major NZ city;

Cheers.
quote
KVC

Hi lawman,

Reading ur 'quite sensible and logical' reply....may I ask...that wats ur take on....

1. LLM in a good enough US law school(like Georgetown in DC) vs LLM at the Melbourne Law School.

2. LLM in one of the top US law schools(like NYU, CLS. UPENN) vs LLM at the Melbourne Law School

3. LLM at the NYU@NUS program vs Melbourne Law School.

I have to make the abobe choices on a variety of factors like cost involved, what the program will fetch me in return(monitory) etc.

I am Indian and I dont plan working in US (considering how impossible it is to get a job there). What I am looking at is working in Australia, Hong kong...may be UK. I am very keen on the NYU@NUS as there are chances of getting a high scholarship there....but then again ppl are saying that they are unsure about the market value of the program.

By the ways I am looking at specialising in Commercial Laws only. I have already received an admission letter from Georgetown...but then I am being told that its not worth spending that much on. (Remember the Indian- USD excahnge rate is a killer). I really am keen on Melbourne too...but I dont want to do an LLM that may restrict me to a particular territory.

Im pity confused...

Thanks.

Hi lawman,

Reading ur 'quite sensible and logical' reply....may I ask...that wats ur take on....

1. LLM in a good enough US law school(like Georgetown in DC) vs LLM at the Melbourne Law School.

2. LLM in one of the top US law schools(like NYU, CLS. UPENN) vs LLM at the Melbourne Law School

3. LLM at the NYU@NUS program vs Melbourne Law School.

I have to make the abobe choices on a variety of factors like cost involved, what the program will fetch me in return(monitory) etc.

I am Indian and I dont plan working in US (considering how impossible it is to get a job there). What I am looking at is working in Australia, Hong kong...may be UK. I am very keen on the NYU@NUS as there are chances of getting a high scholarship there....but then again ppl are saying that they are unsure about the market value of the program.

By the ways I am looking at specialising in Commercial Laws only. I have already received an admission letter from Georgetown...but then I am being told that its not worth spending that much on. (Remember the Indian- USD excahnge rate is a killer). I really am keen on Melbourne too...but I dont want to do an LLM that may restrict me to a particular territory.

Im pity confused...

Thanks.
quote
lawmann

Hi, KVC

I am glad to advise.

The University of Melbourne is an excellent Law School. I am told by the former SG of Australia, Dr Gavan Griffith QC to whom I am acquainted that Melbourne U is arguably the best Law School in the Asia Pacific and can rival Harvard.

However, if your 1st degree LL.B is already from Australia, you may not wish to take another LL.M from Australia. But then again, if you intend to work in Australia, you will be well advised to stick with Melbourne U because of its ranking in Australia.

But if you want an overseas experience, then Georgetown in DC is a reasonably good choice provided you can stomach the high costs of an American legal education and provided also that you cannot get yourself admitted into Harvard or Yale. If you can get yourself admitted into Harvard or Yale, then of course Harvard or Yale is the natural choice over Melbourne U. Nothing to ponder. Harvard is the world 's undisputed No.1 followed by Yale. The others are Cambridge or Oxford. The Cambridge LL.M is easy to get in. Oxford is perhaps more difficult as its BCL is reknowned.

If you talk of any other USA law schools v Melbourne other than Harvard or Yale , I would suggest you stick to Melbourne U. You have to note that Georgetown is not that top ranking in USA. Universities like stanford , UCLA or Berkerley Boalt Hall or even Chicago may be better known and ranks better than Georgetown. Then there is the cost factor too. If you are prepared to spend that kind of money to attend Georgetown, then you might as well opt for the Ivy League Universities that have a better ranking than Georgetown.

In my view, between NYU@NUS v Melbourne, I would go for NYU@NUS without any hesitation because:-
[1] cost economical;
[2] NUS was ranked No.20 in World Ranking 2006 ahead of even Melbourne + NYU is an Ivy League Law School;
[3] You get to have 2 LL.Ms in 10 months I believe instead of just one;
[4] the Singapore NUS environment is highly competitive and if you can survive the NYU@NUS, you can survive in any jurisdiction you choose to practise;
[5] Where in the world can you obtain 2 LL.Ms in 10 months or so;
[6] Singapore is an ultra efficient City State,. They invest in brain power. Just look at the profile of the NUS law lecturers. I think 90% has doctorates. For those without PhDs, the minimum is 2 LL.Ms and from top ranked universities too; and
[7] Admission to NUS is based on merit and not colour or creed.

But if you are thinking of practising law in Hong Kong, then you may wish to consider the University of Hong Kong which is highly regarded and ranked too.

All said, my choice is NYU@NUS. If you are offered a scholarship here, then grab it without hesitation. It would be downright stupid to reject .

The market value of the LL.M is secondary. It is the overseas experience that counts. And legal studies in USA is certainly an eye opener. As I have said, if you can stomach the costs.

My private e-mail is: pklim@pd.jaring.my

I welcome private discussions.

Hope that helps.

Hi, KVC

I am glad to advise.

The University of Melbourne is an excellent Law School. I am told by the former SG of Australia, Dr Gavan Griffith QC to whom I am acquainted that Melbourne U is arguably the best Law School in the Asia Pacific and can rival Harvard.

However, if your 1st degree LL.B is already from Australia, you may not wish to take another LL.M from Australia. But then again, if you intend to work in Australia, you will be well advised to stick with Melbourne U because of its ranking in Australia.

But if you want an overseas experience, then Georgetown in DC is a reasonably good choice provided you can stomach the high costs of an American legal education and provided also that you cannot get yourself admitted into Harvard or Yale. If you can get yourself admitted into Harvard or Yale, then of course Harvard or Yale is the natural choice over Melbourne U. Nothing to ponder. Harvard is the world 's undisputed No.1 followed by Yale. The others are Cambridge or Oxford. The Cambridge LL.M is easy to get in. Oxford is perhaps more difficult as its BCL is reknowned.

If you talk of any other USA law schools v Melbourne other than Harvard or Yale , I would suggest you stick to Melbourne U. You have to note that Georgetown is not that top ranking in USA. Universities like stanford , UCLA or Berkerley Boalt Hall or even Chicago may be better known and ranks better than Georgetown. Then there is the cost factor too. If you are prepared to spend that kind of money to attend Georgetown, then you might as well opt for the Ivy League Universities that have a better ranking than Georgetown.

In my view, between NYU@NUS v Melbourne, I would go for NYU@NUS without any hesitation because:-
[1] cost economical;
[2] NUS was ranked No.20 in World Ranking 2006 ahead of even Melbourne + NYU is an Ivy League Law School;
[3] You get to have 2 LL.Ms in 10 months I believe instead of just one;
[4] the Singapore NUS environment is highly competitive and if you can survive the NYU@NUS, you can survive in any jurisdiction you choose to practise;
[5] Where in the world can you obtain 2 LL.Ms in 10 months or so;
[6] Singapore is an ultra efficient City State,. They invest in brain power. Just look at the profile of the NUS law lecturers. I think 90% has doctorates. For those without PhDs, the minimum is 2 LL.Ms and from top ranked universities too; and
[7] Admission to NUS is based on merit and not colour or creed.

But if you are thinking of practising law in Hong Kong, then you may wish to consider the University of Hong Kong which is highly regarded and ranked too.

All said, my choice is NYU@NUS. If you are offered a scholarship here, then grab it without hesitation. It would be downright stupid to reject .

The market value of the LL.M is secondary. It is the overseas experience that counts. And legal studies in USA is certainly an eye opener. As I have said, if you can stomach the costs.

My private e-mail is: pklim@pd.jaring.my

I welcome private discussions.

Hope that helps.


quote


[7] Admission to NUS is based on merit and not colour or creed.


So which universities admit students based on 'colour and creed'?

<blockquote>
[7] Admission to NUS is based on merit and not colour or creed.
</blockquote>

So which universities admit students based on 'colour and creed'?
quote
lawmann

sensitive question that is!

you mean every university is blind to colour and creed. is that really possible you think? there are all kinds of universities you know.

sensitive question that is!

you mean every university is blind to colour and creed. is that really possible you think? there are all kinds of universities you know.
quote

you mean every university is blind to colour and creed. is that really possible you think? there are all kinds of universities you know.


No, I mean which universities admit their students based on colour and creed?

<blockquote>you mean every university is blind to colour and creed. is that really possible you think? there are all kinds of universities you know.</blockquote>

No, I mean which universities admit their students based on colour and creed?
quote
lawmann

Are there any such universities? Did I say that there are any?

Are there any such universities? Did I say that there are any?
quote

You just said there are "all kinds of universities" in supporting your statement about colour and religion, implying that there are universities like that. So which universities do that?

You just said there are "all kinds of universities" in supporting your statement about colour and religion, implying that there are universities like that. So which universities do that?
quote
lawmann

In the context of my various statements, if you read them carefully, and word for word, you will realize that I did not imply anything.

For e.g. by way of illustration, some universities say in their admission policies in their brochures that they do not discriminate on grounds of race, creed ....and so on! Are you therefore also saying or suggesting that these universities are ( like me ) also implying that they are universities which are discriminatory? Sure not. It only reflects this particular university's own policy .

Be sensible though. If a university really wants to discriminate, and reject a student say on race or creed or so on, it need not say so on these grounds. It can justify the rejection by saying the student did not pass the interview and so forth but avoid mentioning those sensitive words of race or creed.

Simply put, if a university really wants to admit someone who may not qualify the admission requirements, it can justify the admission based on 101 reasons. Conversely, if they don't want to admit the particular student, they need to give only one reason.

When I say there are " all kinds of universities" by giving you a poser, can you vouch that all universities practise open admission policies? Surely not. How and who are you to vouch?

Perhaps that will answer your query.

In the context of my various statements, if you read them carefully, and word for word, you will realize that I did not imply anything.

For e.g. by way of illustration, some universities say in their admission policies in their brochures that they do not discriminate on grounds of race, creed ....and so on! Are you therefore also saying or suggesting that these universities are ( like me ) also implying that they are universities which are discriminatory? Sure not. It only reflects this particular university's own policy .

Be sensible though. If a university really wants to discriminate, and reject a student say on race or creed or so on, it need not say so on these grounds. It can justify the rejection by saying the student did not pass the interview and so forth but avoid mentioning those sensitive words of race or creed.

Simply put, if a university really wants to admit someone who may not qualify the admission requirements, it can justify the admission based on 101 reasons. Conversely, if they don't want to admit the particular student, they need to give only one reason.

When I say there are " all kinds of universities" by giving you a poser, can you vouch that all universities practise open admission policies? Surely not. How and who are you to vouch?

Perhaps that will answer your query.
quote

So are you now saying that your comment about skin colour or religious prejudice was irrelevant?

How do you know that NUS does not discriminate on race and religion in their admissions process, compared to other universities who do?

What kind of non-open admission policies do other universities have?

So are you now saying that your comment about skin colour or religious prejudice was irrelevant?

How do you know that NUS does not discriminate on race and religion in their admissions process, compared to other universities who do?

What kind of non-open admission policies do other universities have?
quote
Didero

Hey Rogue, thanks for demonstrating your rhetorical abilities, but this is starting to get boring...

Hey Rogue, thanks for demonstrating your rhetorical abilities, but this is starting to get boring...
quote

Come on now, give the guy a chance. He might have something to say about affirmative action or religious funded (whether Christian or Islamic or other) universities/colleges, maybe even the gender divide or any number of issues. It was disappointing to see back-pedalling and inconsistency.

Come on now, give the guy a chance. He might have something to say about affirmative action or religious funded (whether Christian or Islamic or other) universities/colleges, maybe even the gender divide or any number of issues. It was disappointing to see back-pedalling and inconsistency.
quote
KVC

I am an Indian, and have received a confirmed admission from MLS for Master of Commercial Laws. However, I have also secured an admission at Georgetown Law School too. Now I am pity confused. Its like....I really dont have a hard n fast rule of just wanting to work in US, but then I feel that a US law school degree would always be an added advantage. ( Not taking anything away from MLS....which of corse is a place where I would luv to go).

I am pity fond of Australia, but then I ve got to take this call solely from a career point of view. I wish to try n gain some overseas work ex (preferably in Australia iself) before I return to my home country. I was wondering whether I could get all possible inputs and advise on this specially with regard to MLS.

Can I get some suggestions as to where I can read much more abt MLS... the studies...professors..career prospects...job scenes for International students...placements... and of corse.....the campus life. Also will the MLS LLM degree hold good value in the Asian ever growing legal market ?

Cheers.

I am an Indian, and have received a confirmed admission from MLS for Master of Commercial Laws. However, I have also secured an admission at Georgetown Law School too. Now I am pity confused. Its like....I really dont have a hard n fast rule of just wanting to work in US, but then I feel that a US law school degree would always be an added advantage. ( Not taking anything away from MLS....which of corse is a place where I would luv to go).

I am pity fond of Australia, but then I ve got to take this call solely from a career point of view. I wish to try n gain some overseas work ex (preferably in Australia iself) before I return to my home country. I was wondering whether I could get all possible inputs and advise on this specially with regard to MLS.

Can I get some suggestions as to where I can read much more abt MLS... the studies...professors..career prospects...job scenes for International students...placements... and of corse.....the campus life. Also will the MLS LLM degree hold good value in the Asian ever growing legal market ?

Cheers.
quote
GHP

Dear Lawmann,

I am a lawyer with LLB and long time of practicing experience in American companies in China. I also have the intention to move to Australia starting with LLM and JD/LLB study there.

I have learned a lot from the posts above. But concerning to the legal practicing requirement in Australia, I am still confused. What does Priesly 11 mean, is that some sort of couse study, how long will it take? Could I regard that full education with JD/LLB, then certificate with Priesly 11 will be enough to be qualified to pracitice in Aus? How about the legal career prospect in Aus as a foreigner?

Or, if it is too complicated or hard to get the qualification to work as a lawyer in Aus, how about the transfer to US after the degree of LLM in Aus?

As to myself, I do appreciate the beaufitul scenery and mild weather of Aus, but working in US seems more feasible.

Many thanks for any reply and Have a nice day!
GHP

Dear Lawmann,

I am a lawyer with LLB and long time of practicing experience in American companies in China. I also have the intention to move to Australia starting with LLM and JD/LLB study there.

I have learned a lot from the posts above. But concerning to the legal practicing requirement in Australia, I am still confused. What does Priesly 11 mean, is that some sort of couse study, how long will it take? Could I regard that full education with JD/LLB, then certificate with Priesly 11 will be enough to be qualified to pracitice in Aus? How about the legal career prospect in Aus as a foreigner?

Or, if it is too complicated or hard to get the qualification to work as a lawyer in Aus, how about the transfer to US after the degree of LLM in Aus?

As to myself, I do appreciate the beaufitul scenery and mild weather of Aus, but working in US seems more feasible.

Many thanks for any reply and Have a nice day!
GHP
quote

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