Plagiarism in LLM applications


ringirl
Aky I felt the same as you, it could be anyone's seat..
Aky I felt the same as you, it could be anyone's seat..
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I don't need to play lawyer. I am one and have been for many years. Perhaps this makes me more jaded, faded and cynical than some of the more bright and bushy tailed young posters on this thread.

It seems to me that if the OP is based on a fiction, there's no point in debating it as if it were the truth. Irrespective of whether the debate takes place in the real world or the virtual one.
I don't need to play lawyer. I am one and have been for many years. Perhaps this makes me more jaded, faded and cynical than some of the more bright and bushy tailed young posters on this thread.

It seems to me that if the OP is based on a fiction, there's no point in debating it as if it were the truth. Irrespective of whether the debate takes place in the real world or the virtual one.
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ringirl
please don't regret your post, it was honestly entertaining

at least with people like you around the wait is less boring :)
please don't regret your post, it was honestly entertaining

at least with people like you around the wait is less boring :)
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Sienna
@Ringirl don't bother with Trinity. I think he is a troll and just loves giving his wise perception of the world to us, young and ignorant lawyers ...
He posted in other topics and his answers are always...pointless !!!

@Trinity, just keep yourself busy with your wonderful LLM in Dublin (i am sure it receives a lot of top draw applications from all over the world) and stop writting your jealousy in each topic about LLM's you could not get in !!!
@Ringirl don't bother with Trinity. I think he is a troll and just loves giving his wise perception of the world to us, young and ignorant lawyers ...
He posted in other topics and his answers are always...pointless !!!

@Trinity, just keep yourself busy with your wonderful LLM in Dublin (i am sure it receives a lot of top draw applications from all over the world) and stop writting your jealousy in each topic about LLM's you could not get in !!!
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BlackWolf
This is probably getting off topic, but it could provide a fascinating little experiment in comparative law. Let's suppose the OP heard the LLM applicant say, "I copied my SOP! I stole it from someone else! And now I'm admitted! Isn't life great?".

In the USA, in a lawsuit in which the LLM applicant is a party (say, the LLM applicant sued the OP for defamation), the statement is not hearsay if offered against the LLM applicant. Fed. R. Evid. 801(d)(2). What would happen in your country?


This thread is truly interesting.

Under Hong Kong law this would be an admission against one's interest and would qualify as an exception to the hearsay rule. This exception is based entirely on common law. As with the codified position in the US, this admission can only be used against the alleged statement-maker.
<blockquote>This is probably getting off topic, but it could provide a fascinating little experiment in comparative law. Let's suppose the OP heard the LLM applicant say, "I copied my SOP! I stole it from someone else! And now I'm admitted! Isn't life great?".

In the USA, in a lawsuit in which the LLM applicant is a party (say, the LLM applicant sued the OP for defamation), the statement is not hearsay if offered against the LLM applicant. Fed. R. Evid. 801(d)(2). What would happen in your country?</blockquote>

This thread is truly interesting.

Under Hong Kong law this would be an admission against one's interest and would qualify as an exception to the hearsay rule. This exception is based entirely on common law. As with the codified position in the US, this admission can only be used against the alleged statement-maker.
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Wow..I did not know a vent could garner so much interest. Here is my reply to the various posts above:

1. Yes, it is hearsay that he cheated to the extent that he himself (emphasis supplied) told me that his personal statement was a rip off!(though I havent read it myself). I see no reason for someone making a self depreciating statement without any cause.
2. I am not sure if he is a member of this website .
3. No, I will not be a whistleblower, but definitely have a differed opinion about him.
4. Yes, he is undoubtedly a good student (as far as he academic records go), but the (alleged) fact that his effort in the application wasnt his own defeats his merit and his respect.
I wish him luck nevertheless and hope he does well. A lesson learnt for people who want things the easy way God isnt always watching 

BTW did anyone read about this - http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2010/05/18/ex_harvard_student_accused_of_living_a_lie/?page=1
Wow..I did not know a “vent” could garner so much interest. Here is my reply to the various posts above:

1. Yes, it is hearsay that he “cheated” to the extent that he himself (emphasis supplied) told me that his personal statement was a rip off!(though I haven’t read it myself). I see no reason for someone making a self depreciating statement without any cause.
2. I am not sure if he is a member of this website .
3. No, I will not be a whistleblower, but definitely have a “differed” opinion about him.
4. Yes, he is undoubtedly a good student (as far as he academic records go), but the (alleged) fact that his effort in the application wasn’t his own defeats his merit and his respect.
I wish him luck nevertheless and hope he does well. A lesson learnt for people who want things the easy way – God isn’t always watching 

BTW – did anyone read about this - http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2010/05/18/ex_harvard_student_accused_of_living_a_lie/?page=1
quote
Intially, omna tells us that his friend cheated in two respects. First of all, that his personal statement was a rip off of a previous applicant. Secondly, that his essay was a shorter version of a published article.

Then he changes his story. Apparently, if Omna's last post is to be believed, the plagiarism perpetrated by his friend related solely to his personal statement. No mention whatsoever in his second post of any cheating in relating to the reproduction of a published article.

Which begs the question, how reliable is Omna? And should we take all that he/she has posted with a grain of salt?

Another question for Omna. Do both of the universities specified in his OP require essays to be submitted with applications? And how is it possible that his friend has been given unconditional offers for both institutions at such an early stage of the academic year?
Intially, omna tells us that his friend cheated in two respects. First of all, that his personal statement was a rip off of a previous applicant. Secondly, that his essay was a shorter version of a published article.

Then he changes his story. Apparently, if Omna's last post is to be believed, the plagiarism perpetrated by his friend related solely to his personal statement. No mention whatsoever in his second post of any cheating in relating to the reproduction of a published article.

Which begs the question, how reliable is Omna? And should we take all that he/she has posted with a grain of salt?

Another question for Omna. Do both of the universities specified in his OP require essays to be submitted with applications? And how is it possible that his friend has been given unconditional offers for both institutions at such an early stage of the academic year?

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Response to Sienna's earlier post: For someone who finds my posts "pointless" Sienna, you certaintly devoted a huge amount of time to replying to them. Just because I disagreed with your assessment of King's (as against LSE), there's no need to engage in personalised vitriol in responding to my comments.
Response to Sienna's earlier post: For someone who finds my posts "pointless" Sienna, you certaintly devoted a huge amount of time to replying to them. Just because I disagreed with your assessment of King's (as against LSE), there's no need to engage in personalised vitriol in responding to my comments.

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5252
When did the LLM Guide become a more pretentious version of Auto Admit? ;)
When did the LLM Guide become a more pretentious version of Auto Admit? ;)
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Here's an extract from the NYU Law School's website:

Writing samples: "Due to the large number of applications that we receive each year, the Committee on Graduate Admissions is not able to read or consider writing samples, articles or research papers submitted with applications. Instead, publications, academic presentations and the like may be noted on the applicant's resume for consideration by the Committee".

If you turn to the Columbia Law School's website, the six required elements of an LL.M. application are as follows: 1. Personal Statement describing background, academic interests ; 2. Resume or Curriculum Vitae ; 3 Transcripts and Diplomas ; 4. TOEFL where relevant ; 5. Two letters of recommendation and 6. Certificate form.

Which would suggest that articles and essays (whether plagiarised or genuine) are not welcome at either Columbia or NYU.

Now go back and look at the OP. And tell me whether you believe the poster and/or his alleged informant.
Here's an extract from the NYU Law School's website:

Writing samples: "Due to the large number of applications that we receive each year, the Committee on Graduate Admissions is not able to read or consider writing samples, articles or research papers submitted with applications. Instead, publications, academic presentations and the like may be noted on the applicant's resume for consideration by the Committee".

If you turn to the Columbia Law School's website, the six required elements of an LL.M. application are as follows: 1. Personal Statement describing background, academic interests ; 2. Resume or Curriculum Vitae ; 3 Transcripts and Diplomas ; 4. TOEFL where relevant ; 5. Two letters of recommendation and 6. Certificate form.

Which would suggest that articles and essays (whether plagiarised or genuine) are not welcome at either Columbia or NYU.

Now go back and look at the OP. And tell me whether you believe the poster and/or his alleged informant.
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Aky
Seriously Trinity, you are annoying everyone here
The kind of guy ready to do anything to prove his point, and never admit that he's wrong or may be wrong.

And yes, I believe and prefer by far the OP than someone not realizing that we're not in a court.

---

If the OP wants to tell Columbia Office of Admissions about his doubts, or keep it for himself, it's his choice.

Now let's get back to our business : LLM admissions, procedures, programs, etc. in USA :)
Seriously Trinity, you are annoying everyone here
The kind of guy ready to do anything to prove his point, and never admit that he's wrong or may be wrong.

And yes, I believe and prefer by far the OP than someone not realizing that we're not in a court.

---

If the OP wants to tell Columbia Office of Admissions about his doubts, or keep it for himself, it's his choice.

Now let's get back to our business : LLM admissions, procedures, programs, etc. in USA :)
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I thought that this was a thread about plagiarism.
I thought that this was a thread about plagiarism.
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Oldtimer
Yes, there are plenty of people who cheat all their lives without getting caught, mostly thanks to people like you who hesitate to do something about it. And all law schools end-up admitting undeserving students, even the top ones. Life is unfair; get over it.

All the blah blah about hearsay is just that. This is not a court of law and neither are the admission procedures of any school. If you tip them and point to the article there is no doubt in my mind that they will follow through (ever care reading the notice in the applications about how serious misleading them is?).

For me, the only question would be how to denounce the situation, because I can understand the friendship dimension. However, know that if you were admitted to the NY Bar, and bound by their ethics rules, you would probably be required to denounce the situation. And, by raising the issue here, you would almost certainly be in trouble for admitting it!
Yes, there are plenty of people who cheat all their lives without getting caught, mostly thanks to people like you who hesitate to do something about it. And all law schools end-up admitting undeserving students, even the top ones. Life is unfair; get over it.

All the blah blah about hearsay is just that. This is not a court of law and neither are the admission procedures of any school. If you tip them and point to the article there is no doubt in my mind that they will follow through (ever care reading the notice in the applications about how serious misleading them is?).

For me, the only question would be how to denounce the situation, because I can understand the friendship dimension. However, know that if you were admitted to the NY Bar, and bound by their ethics rules, you would probably be required to denounce the situation. And, by raising the issue here, you would almost certainly be in trouble for admitting it!
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MAB79
I couldn't say anything about plagiarism because I have never seen it, but I have seen some applicants who got through into the Ivy League with huge lies on their resumes..
Teacher's aids became T.A's, interns at law firms became attorneys, interns at State Court became clerks, bank clerks who turned into analysts or managers, and so on...
I will refrain from further details about it, but while academic records can't be faked they can be manipulated especially at schools where there is no official ranking available. I think it's just sad...in the other hand, good faith should presumed from all applicants until otherwise proven, because after all, if mistakes are to be expected to happen in the selection process, it would best if they benefited dishonest candidates before they harmed a single honest candidate in the competition by wrongly casting a shade of doubt on his/her application materials..I don't see how to solve such problem..


Mostly this is not cheating:

In many countries there are different terms for similar position (except for attorney, but then again, there are some places where an intern is called junior associate etc). So, just because u try to push your resume by chosing different language means not u are cheating...it shows that u know how to sell yourself.

I believe that mostly the people are chosen fair and adequate. No one in my class seems not to be worth it to be here.

So, please stop talking and moaning about fairness and how bad other people perform or do their job...after all the admission comitee knows probably how to handle the large amount of sometimes (really) bad applications better than we do and know where to draw the line. Focus on what's ur job...if u do that, you will get into a good uni for your LL.M.

And in case u are interested:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html
<blockquote>I couldn't say anything about plagiarism because I have never seen it, but I have seen some applicants who got through into the Ivy League with huge lies on their resumes..
Teacher's aids became T.A's, interns at law firms became attorneys, interns at State Court became clerks, bank clerks who turned into analysts or managers, and so on...
I will refrain from further details about it, but while academic records can't be faked they can be manipulated especially at schools where there is no official ranking available. I think it's just sad...in the other hand, good faith should presumed from all applicants until otherwise proven, because after all, if mistakes are to be expected to happen in the selection process, it would best if they benefited dishonest candidates before they harmed a single honest candidate in the competition by wrongly casting a shade of doubt on his/her application materials..I don't see how to solve such problem..</blockquote>

Mostly this is not cheating:

In many countries there are different terms for similar position (except for attorney, but then again, there are some places where an intern is called junior associate etc). So, just because u try to push your resume by chosing different language means not u are cheating...it shows that u know how to sell yourself.

I believe that mostly the people are chosen fair and adequate. No one in my class seems not to be worth it to be here.

So, please stop talking and moaning about fairness and how bad other people perform or do their job...after all the admission comitee knows probably how to handle the large amount of sometimes (really) bad applications better than we do and know where to draw the line. Focus on what's ur job...if u do that, you will get into a good uni for your LL.M.

And in case u are interested:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html

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Oldtimer

Mostly this is not cheating:

In many countries there are different terms for similar position (except for attorney, but then again, there are some places where an intern is called junior associate etc). So, just because u try to push your resume by chosing different language means not u are cheating...it shows that u know how to sell yourself.

I believe that mostly the people are chosen fair and adequate. No one in my class seems not to be worth it to be here.


I beg to differ.

Nobody questions that everybody has the right to market himself under the best light possible (let's call it exagerate). But the first post clearly states "I know for a fact that he cheated". Thus, to the extent the person writting the first post is accurate, we are talking about something completely different here. Cheating is wrong and unacceptable from somebody who wants to become a lawyer. And, in my opinion, it is also wrong to know about it and not do anything about it.
<blockquote>
Mostly this is not cheating:

In many countries there are different terms for similar position (except for attorney, but then again, there are some places where an intern is called junior associate etc). So, just because u try to push your resume by chosing different language means not u are cheating...it shows that u know how to sell yourself.

I believe that mostly the people are chosen fair and adequate. No one in my class seems not to be worth it to be here.
</blockquote>

I beg to differ.

Nobody questions that everybody has the right to market himself under the best light possible (let's call it exagerate). But the first post clearly states "I know for a fact that he cheated". Thus, to the extent the person writting the first post is accurate, we are talking about something completely different here. Cheating is wrong and unacceptable from somebody who wants to become a lawyer. And, in my opinion, it is also wrong to know about it and not do anything about it.
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MAB79

Mostly this is not cheating:

In many countries there are different terms for similar position (except for attorney, but then again, there are some places where an intern is called junior associate etc). So, just because u try to push your resume by chosing different language means not u are cheating...it shows that u know how to sell yourself.

I believe that mostly the people are chosen fair and adequate. No one in my class seems not to be worth it to be here.


I beg to differ.

Nobody questions that everybody has the right to market himself under the best light possible (let's call it exagerate). But the first post clearly states "I know for a fact that he cheated". Thus, to the extent the person writting the first post is accurate, we are talking about something completely different here. Cheating is wrong and unacceptable from somebody who wants to become a lawyer. And, in my opinion, it is also wrong to know about it and not do anything about it.


Well, I clearly referred to the statement I put ahead of my answer, where it said that people say they did a clerkship when they were intern in a court...etc.

And then again: I konw he cheated...I don't think that we should take this to serious here..the person was talking about essays for nyu and columbia, that clearly don't need to be written for the application...
<blockquote><blockquote>
Mostly this is not cheating:

In many countries there are different terms for similar position (except for attorney, but then again, there are some places where an intern is called junior associate etc). So, just because u try to push your resume by chosing different language means not u are cheating...it shows that u know how to sell yourself.

I believe that mostly the people are chosen fair and adequate. No one in my class seems not to be worth it to be here.
</blockquote>

I beg to differ.

Nobody questions that everybody has the right to market himself under the best light possible (let's call it exagerate). But the first post clearly states "I know for a fact that he cheated". Thus, to the extent the person writting the first post is accurate, we are talking about something completely different here. Cheating is wrong and unacceptable from somebody who wants to become a lawyer. And, in my opinion, it is also wrong to know about it and not do anything about it.</blockquote>

Well, I clearly referred to the statement I put ahead of my answer, where it said that people say they did a clerkship when they were intern in a court...etc.

And then again: I konw he cheated...I don't think that we should take this to serious here..the person was talking about essays for nyu and columbia, that clearly don't need to be written for the application...
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Oldtimer
Sorry, but you didn't. You also began by saying "I couldn't say anything about plagiarism because I have never seen it, but I have seen some applicants who got through into the Ivy League with huge lies on their resumes." So, how exactly is having "huge lies" not "cheating"?
Sorry, but you didn't. You also began by saying "I couldn't say anything about plagiarism because I have never seen it, but I have seen some applicants who got through into the Ivy League with huge lies on their resumes." So, how exactly is having "huge lies" not "cheating"?
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Okay, let's leave hearsay out of the equation.

I'm just amazed by the seriousness with which most of you have taken the original post. The moment I saw it, I thought to myself "this stinks". But all of you seem willing to buy into the proposition that the original post is a genuine statement of fact.

My main reason for seeking to challenge the OP (by reference to the NYU and Columbia regulations) is just to illustrate that you should not unthinkingly believe everything you read on the internet.
Okay, let's leave hearsay out of the equation.

I'm just amazed by the seriousness with which most of you have taken the original post. The moment I saw it, I thought to myself "this stinks". But all of you seem willing to buy into the proposition that the original post is a genuine statement of fact.

My main reason for seeking to challenge the OP (by reference to the NYU and Columbia regulations) is just to illustrate that you should not unthinkingly believe everything you read on the internet.

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dggc
Sorry, but you didn't. You also began by saying "I couldn't say anything about plagiarism because I have never seen it, but I have seen some applicants who got through into the Ivy League with huge lies on their resumes." So, how exactly is having "huge lies" not "cheating"?


I was the one who said that, not MAB79. I do think that misleading translations are cheating.
<blockquote>Sorry, but you didn't. You also began by saying "I couldn't say anything about plagiarism because I have never seen it, but I have seen some applicants who got through into the Ivy League with huge lies on their resumes." So, how exactly is having "huge lies" not "cheating"?</blockquote>

I was the one who said that, not MAB79. I do think that misleading translations are cheating.
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Oldtimer
My bad on the attribution of the quote.

Again, nobody questions that playing around with the language, translations, etc. is fair play. Everybody does. But there is clearly a point where marketing becomes misrepresenting and, yes, cheating.

Why take the cheating at face value and as the starting point? Because:
1. that was the original question, and
2. otherwise there is nothing to talk about... :)

All the best!
My bad on the attribution of the quote.

Again, nobody questions that playing around with the language, translations, etc. is fair play. Everybody does. But there is clearly a point where marketing becomes misrepresenting and, yes, cheating.

Why take the cheating at face value and as the starting point? Because:
1. that was the original question, and
2. otherwise there is nothing to talk about... :)

All the best!
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