I am interested in International Law, particularly in the field of transitional justice...Which one would you -LL.M. applicants and students of the world- recommend? NYU? Columbia? Harvard? I'd love to know what people think about this...

For this area, I would think NYU > Harvard > Columbia. Note however, that this is only for this area

US News says:

1. New York University
2. Columbia University
3. Harvard University

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/law/brief/lawsp06_brief.php

The choice also depends on what you plan to do after your LLM and where you plan to work. Law firms in Europe will not know much about NYU's strenth in international law. Harvard will always look more "elite" than the others. On the other hand, Columbia (Ivy League) and NYU (mostly known for its tax program) are really great names as well, so your choice will not ruin your CV.

I would apply to all three programs and worry later -- you need to be accepted by (one of) these schools in the first place ;-)

I agree with Crash... No matter which of them you choose, you will not regret your choice. But they have to accept you first...

Well with all due respect, I dont think its very difficult to be admitted to NYU.

It is extraordinarily difficult to gain acceptance at Yale, Stanford and Harvard.

But the NYU LLM program is not very selective.

Chicago and Columbia are much more selective.

There are more than 450 LLM students at NYU each year. Since most of the students admitted to Yale, Stanford, Harvard, Columbia (and some students admitted to other top law schools, such as Chicago, Berkeley or Penn) dont go to NYU, it is likely that NYU Law School accept more than 800 applicants each year!

Ivan2006: You are currently a student at NYU (or an alumnus), so its perfectly understandable that you support your law school. But please be honest dont say that its very difficult to be admitted there!

All my friends were admitted to NYU last year, even those with average grades and no professional experience (I was admitted too).

I do believe that NYU is a good law school (especially for his JD program) but its just crazy to accept more than 400 LLM students each year (I am sure you agree with me but wont admit it). And this number will increase with their new program in Singapore (NYU expect the inaugural class in Singapore to be comprised of 70 to 100 students).

Ive also heard that many JD students at NYU complain about the size of the LLM program (which, in my view, is perfectly understandable).

More and more recruiters are concerned about NYUs lack of selectivity and in my home country (Germany), NUY graduates have more and more difficulties finding a job following the completion of their LLM. There are more than 20 each year! For some of them (not all), it is much more difficult to find a job than for LLM graduates of Chicago, Virginia, Northwestern, Penn or Berkeley.

I'm a current LLM student at NYU.

A few matters of fact I want to make clear here:

1. Of the 400+ LLMs at NYU, about 150 are U.S. JD graduates (most of them are in the Taxation program). I suppose the 1:2 domestic-trained to foreign-trained ratio is unusual among LL.M. programs at top law schools, and should not to be ignored when looking at the seemingly big number.

2. Four of the five courses I am taking this semester are JD-LL.M.-mixed. As far as I am aware of, most courses (except for 1L courses) are open to LL.M. students. If we all agree that NYU has an excellent J.D. program (which generally means great curriculum and faculty), I don't see why the NYU LLM program is less prestigious than its JD program. Mind you that we all have to compete with the same curves.

3. As to selectivity, if you see admission as a "seal of approval", then we would all rank students by their schools, say, all the Yale graduates are better than Columbia graduates, and all the Columbia graduates are bettter than Penn graduates, for example. If I were a law firm partner, I would certainly prefer an NYU LLM with straight As to a Columbia LLM with only Bs to offer.

4. Many have talked about how difficult it is to make friends in a bigger program. I just don't get it. First, we only make friends with people we identify with and relate to. A bigger program can only make that easier. Further, there are really a great many of classes at NYU. When the 400+ LLMs go into different classrooms in two buildings, you simply don't see most of them that often at all. Two of my courses are classes of fewer than 30 students. Also there are 4 or 5 LLM specialties here. Most of my close friends are people in the same specialty going to the same classes.

5. I have really enjoyed my time at NYU so far. Location-wise, being in the city does not only make your job search must convenient, it also gives you access to many other resources. Top executives from stock exchanges, government agencies and giant corporations have been guest speakers at my classes, not to mention the many talks and symposia featuring top scholars, practitioners and Judges.

In a word, you won't go wrong with NYU.

One more comment on NYU JDs allegedly complaining about the number of LLMs:

Many 2Ls and most 3Ls are laid back as they have job offers in hand - I'm sure it's not only NYU. They have hoped to relax and still get good grades. If the LLMs at NYU were not competitive as some of you think, it would only make JDs' life easier, as LLMs would fill all the bottom slots of the curve.

You see what they are really complaining about, if they are indeed.

By the way, a long-established big LLM program also granantees you adequate attention and customized service and support. The career office at NYU law school has full-time staff attending only to LLMs and they understand our special circumstances and concerns. You never feel about being minority or living in the shadow of JDs. A pleasant environment helps you with your study, I suppose.

My very last word: law professors at NYU have a high awareness of the different legal backgrounds of the student body. While teaching U.S. law, they often comment on how it differ from other legal systems and cultures. Believe me, it's not only the foreign LLMs who benefit from such insights.

Thank you for your email, kus.

Once again, I do believe that NYU is a great law school.

For example, one of my favorite legal thinkers (Ronald Dworkin) is currently professor of theory and philosophy of law at NYU.

There is no discussion about NYUs academic excellence.

But the size of its LLM program is a source of great concern.

In my view, this program is too big and I do not see any good reason to admit so many people (apart from financial reasons!).

It seems to me that if I were an LLM student at NYU, I would urge the administration to reduce/limit the size of this program. With an LLM program limited to 200 students, NYU would only admit top/very good students and the overall reputation of its LLM program would significantly increase.

Why do you think Yale accepts only 30 people and Stanford 20?

It seems to me that the current size of the NYU LLM program is also a problem for you. Just an example: Over the past years, NYU has admitted outstanding German students but also several with "average" credentials (average grades/no professional experience). What do you think is the "market reaction" (top law firms) when they hire NYU graduates that prove to be just "average" (or worse)?

In my view (maybe Im wrong), its better to train/teach 2 excellent students than to teach 2 excellent students AND 1 "average". Based on a real experience (in my law firm an American one), I can tell you that the negative impact of this "average" student on the market is harmful to the NYU community as a whole. Of course, it can happen with any law school, but it is much more likely to happen in a 450-student program. And the bad experience that my law firm had last year concerns a NYU LLM graduate.

I have some good friends at NYU and most of them are becoming a little bit "schizophrenic" In private, they criticize and complain about the excessive size of the program but, in public, they pretend to be very happy with it!

Honestly, would you oppose a limitation/reduction in the program size?

I think the original question had to do with International Law.

I think the number of NYU law graduates (JD/LLM) on the International Court of Justice might attest to its strength in this area.

My opinion is not biased (as I am not an NYU law graduate and will not be applying to NYU for reasons completely separate from its outstanding reputation).

NYU surely does have the academic and organizational capacity to conduct such a big program. Ok, they could only admit half of the students, but why? Students looking for selectivity and smaller programs can apply to Yale or Stanford and be happy if they are admitted. But then, there are so many more lawyers from all over the world who want to study in New York City for one year of their lives. I think most NYU LLMs are glad they get this opportunity plus an LLM from an excellent school, which has close links to all major law firms in NYC.

Ask NYU alumni and you will mostly get positive feedback. One of my friends who did a tax LLM at NYU got the chance to work for Cleary Gottlieb in New York after finishing his LLM year. Back in Germany, he got several great job offers before he could even send one single application...

It seems that this discussion, that was originally meant to address whether HLS, NYU or Columbia were good at international law, has gone a little wild. Having read the last posts, I realize that now it´s all about the size of NYU´s LLM program. I think it should be discussed separately, but since Morgan addressed me directly and asked me to be "honest", I think it is worth commenting this issue here.

1) First of all, I should say that I do not make advertisements of NYU, as Morgan suggested. Obviously, I can only express my views on what I know - and evidently, I know NYU better than other Law schools. But I always, always say that any of the top schools in the US is great and no matter which you choose, you cannot go wrong, although many of them are specially known by their excellence in certain areas: it is the case of Yale in Jurisprudence, Stanford in IP, Columbia in Corporate Law, UChicago in Law and Business and NYU in Tax. And, of course, you cannot forget HLS, UPenn, UMich, Northwestern, Georgetown, Berkeley, UCLA... All these schools are great, and I would have loved to study in any of them if my specialty was not tax law and if I had applied for admission at them.
2) In addition to that, I think one of the goals of this forum is to allow people who had talk about their experiences in a positive way. That´s what many "old" participants in this forum, like tmalmine (from Yale) or Bitsou (from Stanford) do, and I have never heard them saying anything bad about any other law school.
3) Having said that, sometimes I realize that you often find people that calls NYU´s LLM program a "supermarket" or say things like if you get there by mistake, you receive an admission letter. Honestly, I do not think comments like this are neither accurate nor intended to inform people.
4) As I said, I can only talk about my own experience. As I am a tax attorney, I can talk about the Tax LLM programs. First of all, Tax LLMs are not aimed at attracting international students. Most of the Tax LLM students are American JDs. Second: anyone who is interested in Tax Programs will probably not find any small program in the universities that have the best LLM programs in this field. All the best ranked universities (NYU, Florida, Georgetown, Northwestern) have big programs and more than 100 students. And that´s it. If you are an international student and you want to study tax in a more selective environment, you may do so, although this LLM will not be regarded by the legal market as good as a Tax LLM at the Top 4 schools in this field. I am not sure it is the best way to do things, but that´s how it is. I do not know whether I would have loved best to be in class of 5 people - but I can say I like to be where and how I am now.
5) Finally, I must say admission in NYU´s tax program is pretty selective despite its size. I would refer you to the discussion forum of www.taxtalent.com. In that forum, many American JDs talk about GPA requirements, etc., to be accepted. Sorry, Morgan, I do not feel like a second-tier student or professional just because you say all your friends were accepted at NYU and many of them declined the offer. I had also got offers from other schools you may find more selective than NYU, and I turned them down because I had made my research and I decided that it was the best place in my field of study. Why not let everybody do the same? And even though you might think the contrary, I consider that an LLM student specializing in international law at Columbia (a big LLM program) may have better opportunities than a student of the same field at, let´s say, the University of Chigago (a very small program).

So that´s what I think: we should try to be as objective as possible although, as Morgan say, it is understandable that everybody supports his/her law school. As a matter of fact, I would like to see Morgan supporting his law school and sharing his experience last year instead of worrying so much about NYU. Honestly, I think a lot of people who are applying for your law school will appreciate it.

thank you for your help, ivan2006...your comments are, indeed, very helpful :)

Monica, since I am not enrolled in the LL.M in International Legal Studies of NYU, any comment I could make about this specific program is based mainly in the "buzz" of law school or in hearsay comments. Having said that, I have spoke with an Argentinean colleague that is an ILS LLM last Saturday and he told me that he was very happy with his program. According to him, NYU is very internationally-oriented (actually, this is one of the "polemic" aspects of NYU curriculum - see US News rankings of 2005, in which somebody criticized NYU because - alledgedly - NYU JDs learned better international law instead of torts), and that both the Hauser Global Law program and his head, Prof. Joseph Weiler, are very active hosting events and organizing activities. That´s what I have heard. If I were you, I would ask the admissions department of NYU, CLS and HLS to put you in touch with a current student (maybe somebody from your own country) that could answer your specific queries about each program. Then, after having heard the different opinions from those students, you may eventually take a better-informed decision. Btw, don´t forget to inquire about Georgetown - I have always heard that they have an excellent program and the fact that it is in Washington DC helps a lot when it comes to network with people from international organizations. Good luck!!!

For information about the Hauser Global Law program, see http://www.nyulawglobal.org/.

I am currently an ILS LLM at NYU so I can try and speak to the program here.

This may be of some relvence given your interest in transitional justice: http://www.nyuhr.org/transitional.html.

We had two speakers last week alone on transitional justice issues. We had Louise Arbour (UN High Commissioner for Human Rights) and Arch Bishop Desmond Tutu (Chair of the Truth Commission in South Africa).

We also have a few internships and fellowships available to people interested in transitional justice issues that you may want to look into further.

Let me know if you have any specific questions.

I notice that the NYU LLM in Trade Regulation is not something thats talked about in the academia on this site!

Is it any good at all? The Trade Program at Columbia is very good, with excellent faculty, but would anyone know about other schools? HLS?

HLS only has one subject on that topic, plus a 2-credit seminar. However, there are law students who cross-register to take international trade topics in the Kennedy School of Government.

: Over the past years, NYU has admitted outstanding German students but also several with "average" credentials (average grades/no professional experience).

To yueping:

But he clearly included average grades to his definition of "average credentials", he did not limit it to a lack of professional experience. So a lack of professional experience, coupled with average grades, is what constitutes average ceredentials, he argues. I fear you completely misintepreted his post.

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