NYU Job Fair VS CLS Job Fair


pnarg

Crap! Sorry about that. I don't have the password either, a friend of mine got in on early review and showed me the page some days ago. I later asked him to send me the link on an email...
I guess anyone of the Penn admitted students could copy some passages from the text and post them here to share them with the rest of you -that would be nice. Or, at least, paraphrase it, if you have unfounded IP concerns (if you identify the source it should be fine to quote it!). I just don't have it. Sorry again.

@wizard, who do you work for? the FBI? interpol? the IRS? Just take the info and use it if you want. Be cool.

Crap! Sorry about that. I don't have the password either, a friend of mine got in on early review and showed me the page some days ago. I later asked him to send me the link on an email...
I guess anyone of the Penn admitted students could copy some passages from the text and post them here to share them with the rest of you -that would be nice. Or, at least, paraphrase it, if you have unfounded IP concerns (if you identify the source it should be fine to quote it!). I just don't have it. Sorry again.

@wizard, who do you work for? the FBI? interpol? the IRS? Just take the info and use it if you want. Be cool.
quote
MAB79

i'm sorry to shift the discussion, but stk, i need to know how you graduated with honors from CLS whereas it's raining Bs here! it's a snowstorm of Bs! it was really demoralizing when grades came out :(


@michaelcorleone
I have to say that even though my year at Columbia was a one of the best I've ever had (living in New York, making new friends, going to parties and theaters etc), it was also one of the hardest, especially since english is not my first language and when being graded we have the same curve as the JDs have; therefore, of course we, the LLMs are those most likely to end up with the B+s, the Bs and the B-s. So, I studied really, REALLY hard, but I don't think that that is also the reason I did well because everyone studies hard. When I selected courses, I took 3 lectures and 1 seminar so that during the exam period I would have 3 instead of 4 exams to study for and I participated in the class a lot because I wanted to test my views with the professors before the time of the exam. As the honors (Kent Scholars and Harlan Fiske Stone Scholars) are based on all of your grades and not just one bad grade, you'll see that it is not as difficult as we initially think to end up with such an honor. I would have to say that studying for the Bar Exam was 100 times more difficult than studying for Columbia exams (and I know that now that sounds impossible, but unfortunately it is true). So, good luck and if you need any further information, fell free to PM me.

Hm, are B's that bad? I mean, there is A, A- and then there is already B...as long as you do not fail, this does not sound that bad, right?

<blockquote>i'm sorry to shift the discussion, but stk, i need to know how you graduated with honors from CLS whereas it's raining Bs here! it's a snowstorm of Bs! it was really demoralizing when grades came out :(</blockquote>

@michaelcorleone
I have to say that even though my year at Columbia was a one of the best I've ever had (living in New York, making new friends, going to parties and theaters etc), it was also one of the hardest, especially since english is not my first language and when being graded we have the same curve as the JDs have; therefore, of course we, the LLMs are those most likely to end up with the B+s, the Bs and the B-s. So, I studied really, REALLY hard, but I don't think that that is also the reason I did well because everyone studies hard. When I selected courses, I took 3 lectures and 1 seminar so that during the exam period I would have 3 instead of 4 exams to study for and I participated in the class a lot because I wanted to test my views with the professors before the time of the exam. As the honors (Kent Scholars and Harlan Fiske Stone Scholars) are based on all of your grades and not just one bad grade, you'll see that it is not as difficult as we initially think to end up with such an honor. I would have to say that studying for the Bar Exam was 100 times more difficult than studying for Columbia exams (and I know that now that sounds impossible, but unfortunately it is true). So, good luck and if you need any further information, fell free to PM me.</blockquote>

Hm, are B's that bad? I mean, there is A, A- and then there is already B...as long as you do not fail, this does not sound that bad, right?
quote
trout_face

The following is an excerpt from the admitted Penn website about career opportunities for LLMs (based on what has been said in this thread, I thought people might be interested):


We also want to take a minute to talk to you, frankly, about the great difficulty LL.M.s have in finding legal employment here in the United States.

Employment Opportunities in the U.S. are Extremely Limited
Each year, some of our LL.M. students seek employment in the United States, either on a temporary basis (for example, a three to six month period or a one or two year period prior to returning to their home country) or on a more permanent basis.

Unfortunately, it is very difficult for LL.M. graduates from any LL.M. program in the United States to find a law-related job in the United States today.

Experience shows that only a very, very small percentage of LL.M. graduates from all United States law schools find work here. We want you to be very clear about this before enrolling in the Law School, and therefore we provide the following information for you to consider carefully. We also suggest that you consult with current Penn Law LL.M.s through the contact page.

Those candidates who are successful at securing employment in the U.S. generally do so by networking with contacts from their own country before arriving in order to set up interviews in the U.S. The successful LL.M. candidate is typically one who can demonstrate to a U.S. firm that they will be a source of client expansion and income to the firm.

While you can expect to receive an excellent education at Penn Law, we state again, as we did in the Admissions brochure: it is extremely difficult to find law-related employment in the U.S. upon graduation, even for the period of practical training that is allowed under current U.S. immigration law. This is in part because, unfortunately, the number of employers who are interested in hiring LL.M.s is very small. Instead, the hiring that is done by U.S. law firms is typically limited to J.D. graduates.

The reasons that law firms seek candidates with a J.D. are many and include:

LL.M.s Face Law Licensing Barriers
In order to practice law in the U.S., lawyers must be licensed by the individual state in which they will be working. LL.M.s who do not hold a J.D. degree from a U.S. law school are not eligible to take a Bar (licensing) exam in most U.S. jurisdictions. In only a few states can LL.M. graduates sit for a bar examination, and prior to doing so they must fulfill specific, rigorous, and time-consuming requirements. Thus, most foreign attorneys may be able to obtain a license to practice law only in a very small number of states. This closes many doors.


Law Firms will not gain from short-term LL.M. associates
Hiring and training a foreign-trained attorney may not be seen as financially rewarding by U.S. law firms. Law firms in this capitalist economy are focused on how the services of their attorneys can produce revenue for, rather than take revenue from, the firm. Unless an employer can immediately see how a foreign attorney can bring money into the firm, that employer will not be interested in hiring an LL.M. because it may not make good financial sense.


J.D. Candidates Saturate the Market
Perhaps most importantly, most U.S. law firms do not need to look beyond their traditional applicant pool; these firms will not consider job applicants, no matter how strong, if they lack the traditional credential of a J.D. degree from a U.S. law school.

On the very few occasions that a U.S. law firm might look for a foreign-trained attorney to join its office, that firm is typically interested only in attorneys from particular countries and foreign law firms with which that U.S. firm has business connections. Attorneys from other countries will have an almost impossible time obtaining employment in the United States with that firm. In the past many LL.M.s have found it quite frustrating that all the available opportunities are appear to be for students from one or two specific countries.

Statistics illustrate just how small a percentage of LL.M. students from recent classes actually obtained even temporary employment with U.S. legal employers and how difficult it is to do so. For example, in the last eight LL.M. graduating classes, approximately 15% of the LL.Ms secured legal employment in the United States while they were here. In some years, as few as only three students were able to do so. Many students who sought employment opportunities in the U.S. were greatly disappointed.

It is our educated understanding that the U.S. employment statistics for graduates from other leading United States LL.M. programs are comparable. Students from all programs who do find law-related employment in the United States most often do so as a result of contacts made before their arrival in this country.

We pass on this information not to disappoint you, but rather to give you a realistic picture of the job market prior to your decision to attend the University of Pennsylvania Law School or any other LL.M. program in the U.S.

The following is an excerpt from the admitted Penn website about career opportunities for LLMs (based on what has been said in this thread, I thought people might be interested):





We also want to take a minute to talk to you, frankly, about the great difficulty LL.M.s have in finding legal employment here in the United States.

Employment Opportunities in the U.S. are Extremely Limited
Each year, some of our LL.M. students seek employment in the United States, either on a temporary basis (for example, a three to six month period or a one or two year period prior to returning to their home country) or on a more permanent basis.

Unfortunately, it is very difficult for LL.M. graduates from any LL.M. program in the United States to find a law-related job in the United States today.

Experience shows that only a very, very small percentage of LL.M. graduates from all United States law schools find work here. We want you to be very clear about this before enrolling in the Law School, and therefore we provide the following information for you to consider carefully. We also suggest that you consult with current Penn Law LL.M.s through the contact page.

Those candidates who are successful at securing employment in the U.S. generally do so by networking with contacts from their own country before arriving in order to set up interviews in the U.S. The successful LL.M. candidate is typically one who can demonstrate to a U.S. firm that they will be a source of client expansion and income to the firm.

While you can expect to receive an excellent education at Penn Law, we state again, as we did in the Admissions brochure: it is extremely difficult to find law-related employment in the U.S. upon graduation, even for the period of practical training that is allowed under current U.S. immigration law. This is in part because, unfortunately, the number of employers who are interested in hiring LL.M.s is very small. Instead, the hiring that is done by U.S. law firms is typically limited to J.D. graduates.

The reasons that law firms seek candidates with a J.D. are many and include:

LL.M.s Face Law Licensing Barriers
In order to practice law in the U.S., lawyers must be licensed by the individual state in which they will be working. LL.M.s who do not hold a J.D. degree from a U.S. law school are not eligible to take a Bar (licensing) exam in most U.S. jurisdictions. In only a few states can LL.M. graduates sit for a bar examination, and prior to doing so they must fulfill specific, rigorous, and time-consuming requirements. Thus, most foreign attorneys may be able to obtain a license to practice law only in a very small number of states. This closes many doors.


Law Firms will not gain from short-term LL.M. associates
Hiring and training a foreign-trained attorney may not be seen as financially rewarding by U.S. law firms. Law firms in this capitalist economy are focused on how the services of their attorneys can produce revenue for, rather than take revenue from, the firm. Unless an employer can immediately see how a foreign attorney can bring money into the firm, that employer will not be interested in hiring an LL.M. because it may not make good financial sense.


J.D. Candidates Saturate the Market
Perhaps most importantly, most U.S. law firms do not need to look beyond their traditional applicant pool; these firms will not consider job applicants, no matter how strong, if they lack the traditional credential of a J.D. degree from a U.S. law school.

On the very few occasions that a U.S. law firm might look for a foreign-trained attorney to join its office, that firm is typically interested only in attorneys from particular countries and foreign law firms with which that U.S. firm has business connections. Attorneys from other countries will have an almost impossible time obtaining employment in the United States with that firm. In the past many LL.M.s have found it quite frustrating that all the available opportunities are appear to be for students from one or two specific countries.

Statistics illustrate just how small a percentage of LL.M. students from recent classes actually obtained even temporary employment with U.S. legal employers and how difficult it is to do so. For example, in the last eight LL.M. graduating classes, approximately 15% of the LL.Ms secured legal employment in the United States while they were here. In some years, as few as only three students were able to do so. Many students who sought employment opportunities in the U.S. were greatly disappointed.

It is our educated understanding that the U.S. employment statistics for graduates from other leading United States LL.M. programs are comparable. Students from all programs who do find law-related employment in the United States most often do so as a result of contacts made before their arrival in this country.

We pass on this information not to disappoint you, but rather to give you a realistic picture of the job market prior to your decision to attend the University of Pennsylvania Law School or any other LL.M. program in the U.S.
quote
outlaws91

I found that the present article extremely relevant. But I have one more question. What are the job prospects in USA after completion of LLM?

I found that the present article extremely relevant. But I have one more question. What are the job prospects in USA after completion of LLM?
quote
pnarg

Thanks Trout_face for posting most of the -now famous- "Penn brief," that's very nice of you.

In case you guys still want to keep on informing yourselves on this (or, to put it another way, triple-checking what others and I have been saying on this thread), I suggest you take some minutes to check the most important legal blog in the US: "Above The Law."
It rarely addresses topics directly concerning foreign-trained lawyers (i.e. "LLMs"), but every info they provide on the job-market or a career in the legal profession applies directly to us. Like this quote of the day:

. What do you say to a recent law-school graduate?
. A skinny double-shot latte to go, please.
. The Economist

In particular, there are two sections where you can find valuable and always-updated information:
"Job searches": http://abovethelaw.com/job_searches/
and, my favorite, introduced since the beginning of the economic crisis...
"Layoffs": http://abovethelaw.com/layoffs/

I wish you guys the best of luck with the admissions, and sincerely hope that I've contributed to your making a good, informed decision. Over & out.

PS. BTW, since many have asked, I did my LLM in 2009 at YLS.

Thanks Trout_face for posting most of the -now famous- "Penn brief," that's very nice of you.

In case you guys still want to keep on informing yourselves on this (or, to put it another way, triple-checking what others and I have been saying on this thread), I suggest you take some minutes to check the most important legal blog in the US: "Above The Law."
It rarely addresses topics directly concerning foreign-trained lawyers (i.e. "LLMs"), but every info they provide on the job-market or a career in the legal profession applies directly to us. Like this quote of the day:

. What do you say to a recent law-school graduate?
. “A skinny double-shot latte to go, please.”
. — The Economist

In particular, there are two sections where you can find valuable and always-updated information:
"Job searches": http://abovethelaw.com/job_searches/
and, my favorite, introduced since the beginning of the economic crisis...
"Layoffs": http://abovethelaw.com/layoffs/

I wish you guys the best of luck with the admissions, and sincerely hope that I've contributed to your making a good, informed decision. Over & out.

PS. BTW, since many have asked, I did my LLM in 2009 at YLS.
quote
michaelcor...


Hm, are B's that bad? I mean, there is A, A- and then there is already B...as long as you do not fail, this does not sound that bad, right?


thing is, the lowest grade they give is sometimes a B. the bulk of the class is B+. so yeah, a B is low. if you read scott turow's book "One L", one guy was so depressed when he got two B+ and if i remember correctly, contemplated suicide.

<blockquote>
Hm, are B's that bad? I mean, there is A, A- and then there is already B...as long as you do not fail, this does not sound that bad, right?</blockquote>

thing is, the lowest grade they give is sometimes a B. the bulk of the class is B+. so yeah, a B is low. if you read scott turow's book "One L", one guy was so depressed when he got two B+ and if i remember correctly, contemplated suicide.
quote
MAB79


Hm, are B's that bad? I mean, there is A, A- and then there is already B...as long as you do not fail, this does not sound that bad, right?


thing is, the lowest grade they give is sometimes a B. the bulk of the class is B+. so yeah, a B is low. if you read scott turow's book "One L", one guy was so depressed when he got two B+ and if i remember correctly, contemplated suicide.


Thank you...I know that book...great one!

<blockquote><blockquote>
Hm, are B's that bad? I mean, there is A, A- and then there is already B...as long as you do not fail, this does not sound that bad, right?</blockquote>

thing is, the lowest grade they give is sometimes a B. the bulk of the class is B+. so yeah, a B is low. if you read scott turow's book "One L", one guy was so depressed when he got two B+ and if i remember correctly, contemplated suicide. </blockquote>

Thank you...I know that book...great one!
quote
mgm

I'm sorry to revive this thread, but it was quite shocking to read what some recently graduated LLMs wrote about the present situation of the US job market for foreign trained LLMs.
The information on the admitted student's website of Pennsylvania is also quite blunt, specially for a school striving for enrollments... I was admitted some time ago, but hadn't noticed the passage on career development until I read the discussion above.

I know this site is packed with applicants waiting for admissions and finaid offers rather than current and past LLM students, but I thought I could make an appeal to two other groups of people that may be out there in silence:

(a) Could some other LLMs from the class of 2009 that happen to be around tell us if they share the views expressed above and, if possible, share their experiences on the job search last year???

(b) Could current LLM students (class of 2010) tell us something about their experience with the January NY fairs? Are you hearing back from law firms or other employers? Reports of good & bad news are more than welcome.

Again I'm sorry to insist on this, but it's enrollment decision's time and it would really help to make this critical point more clear. Don't get me wrong: nothing against the people that provided such detailed explanations before! You guys created the best thread by far!

I'm sorry to revive this thread, but it was quite shocking to read what some recently graduated LLMs wrote about the present situation of the US job market for foreign trained LLMs.
The information on the admitted student's website of Pennsylvania is also quite blunt, specially for a school striving for enrollments... I was admitted some time ago, but hadn't noticed the passage on career development until I read the discussion above.

I know this site is packed with applicants waiting for admissions and finaid offers rather than current and past LLM students, but I thought I could make an appeal to two other groups of people that may be out there in silence:

(a) Could some other LLMs from the class of 2009 that happen to be around tell us if they share the views expressed above and, if possible, share their experiences on the job search last year???

(b) Could current LLM students (class of 2010) tell us something about their experience with the January NY fairs? Are you hearing back from law firms or other employers? Reports of good & bad news are more than welcome.

Again I'm sorry to insist on this, but it's enrollment decision's time and it would really help to make this critical point more clear. Don't get me wrong: nothing against the people that provided such detailed explanations before! You guys created the best thread by far!
quote
michaelcor...

Could current LLM students (class of 2010) tell us something about their experience with the January NY fairs? Are you hearing back from law firms or other employers? Reports of good & bad news are more than welcome.


it's always depended on your nationality. they value the experience of lawyers from some countries more than in others. firms are really hiring people from latin america and (according to one firm) there is no hiring freeze or lessening on the hiring because work with latin american countries are booming. if you are from china, they will interview you, but not really hire possibly because many students from china are doing their JD in columbia, so rather than hire a chinese who has an LLM, they will rather hire a chinese who has a JD. france and other europeans get some interviews too. people from certain countries get zero interviews. i happen to be from one of those :O

<blockquote>Could current LLM students (class of 2010) tell us something about their experience with the January NY fairs? Are you hearing back from law firms or other employers? Reports of good & bad news are more than welcome.</blockquote>

it's always depended on your nationality. they value the experience of lawyers from some countries more than in others. firms are really hiring people from latin america and (according to one firm) there is no hiring freeze or lessening on the hiring because work with latin american countries are booming. if you are from china, they will interview you, but not really hire possibly because many students from china are doing their JD in columbia, so rather than hire a chinese who has an LLM, they will rather hire a chinese who has a JD. france and other europeans get some interviews too. people from certain countries get zero interviews. i happen to be from one of those :O
quote
josh129

This thread was extremely enlightening and truly reflects the realities of this frustrating U.S. legal job market. A few months ago I was considering whether an LL.M was worth the time and investment or whether I should just get a job right of law school and start working. It was only until recently that I decided that I was absolutely going to do an LL.M Tax Program starting Fall 2010.

I see both sides of the coin on the value of the LL.M program. On one hand, its understandable to be concerned with the stuggling job market. An extra year in a bad economy may mean no job next year in addition to added debt. However, I fully agree with the position that the decision to participate in an LL.M program should not be made solely because of a job. As we have all seen this year, there are simply no guarantees. However, if you are looking to specialize in a particular area of the law, an LL.M may become commonplace in your area. For example, tax and trusts and estates law are two fields where having an LL.M in tax is becoming essentially REQUIRED at some firms and public agencies (i.e the IRS). Therefore, pursuing an LL.M now, while the job market begins to recover may help put you in a good position for a job beginning in Spring of 2011.

I also believe that too much pressure is placed on the particular school's career services to get each an every law student a job. The school can only do so much. They can set up a career fair, OCIs, and mixers, but at the end of the day it is still our responsibility as students to earn the best grades we can and be proactive with our own individual job searches. This means reaching out to attorneys in the area you wish to practice and asking for advice. It also means being creative with your job search. Law firms receive the same packages from thousands of students each year. The resumes and cover letters begin to look the same after awhile. What have you done lately that makes you stand out of the pack? Futher, there is more out there than "Big Law." Medium to small size law firms exist that would carefully consider an LL.M graduate seeking a position.

I really enjoy these discussion boards and hope to talk to many of you over the remainder of this year. As of now, my plan is to attend NYU's LL.M Tax program. However, I am still considering UF and Georgetown's programs. Is anyone else considering these programs as well? Let me know.

- Josh
www.taxdocket.com

This thread was extremely enlightening and truly reflects the realities of this frustrating U.S. legal job market. A few months ago I was considering whether an LL.M was worth the time and investment or whether I should just get a job right of law school and start working. It was only until recently that I decided that I was absolutely going to do an LL.M Tax Program starting Fall 2010.

I see both sides of the coin on the value of the LL.M program. On one hand, its understandable to be concerned with the stuggling job market. An extra year in a bad economy may mean no job next year in addition to added debt. However, I fully agree with the position that the decision to participate in an LL.M program should not be made solely because of a job. As we have all seen this year, there are simply no guarantees. However, if you are looking to specialize in a particular area of the law, an LL.M may become commonplace in your area. For example, tax and trusts and estates law are two fields where having an LL.M in tax is becoming essentially REQUIRED at some firms and public agencies (i.e the IRS). Therefore, pursuing an LL.M now, while the job market begins to recover may help put you in a good position for a job beginning in Spring of 2011.

I also believe that too much pressure is placed on the particular school's career services to get each an every law student a job. The school can only do so much. They can set up a career fair, OCIs, and mixers, but at the end of the day it is still our responsibility as students to earn the best grades we can and be proactive with our own individual job searches. This means reaching out to attorneys in the area you wish to practice and asking for advice. It also means being creative with your job search. Law firms receive the same packages from thousands of students each year. The resumes and cover letters begin to look the same after awhile. What have you done lately that makes you stand out of the pack? Futher, there is more out there than "Big Law." Medium to small size law firms exist that would carefully consider an LL.M graduate seeking a position.

I really enjoy these discussion boards and hope to talk to many of you over the remainder of this year. As of now, my plan is to attend NYU's LL.M Tax program. However, I am still considering UF and Georgetown's programs. Is anyone else considering these programs as well? Let me know.

- Josh
www.taxdocket.com

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