NYU Job Fair VS CLS Job Fair


Borat_USA

Does anyone know which one is the best for career prospective?

Does anyone know which one is the best for career prospective?

quote
pnarg

Old question, yours is...

Some people used to say that the Columbia fair was better because it was more "exclusive" (i.e. fewer, higher ranked schools)...

Others, pointed out that people attending the Columbia job fair being, say, Columbia students, would have to compete against Yale, Harvard & Stanford students, while NYU students would be representing probably the best school in their job fair...

But now, my friend, I would say from an insider's perspective, in terms of career perspective, BOTH SUCK

Keep this in mind: no one got a job last year just for attending the fair... as regards this year, it is too soon to tell, but from good sources I know it's gonna be the same...

Cheers to unemployment!

Old question, yours is...

Some people used to say that the Columbia fair was better because it was more "exclusive" (i.e. fewer, higher ranked schools)...

Others, pointed out that people attending the Columbia job fair being, say, Columbia students, would have to compete against Yale, Harvard & Stanford students, while NYU students would be representing probably the best school in their job fair...

But now, my friend, I would say from an insider's perspective, in terms of career perspective, BOTH SUCK

Keep this in mind: no one got a job last year just for attending the fair... as regards this year, it is too soon to tell, but from good sources I know it's gonna be the same...

Cheers to unemployment!
quote
viper32

So... is someone willing to tell me why the hell we are doing it??? There is a lot of money involved here.

So... is someone willing to tell me why the hell we are doing it??? There is a lot of money involved here.
quote
pnarg

Oh, no, no, no... I suppose there are many more reasons to pursue graduate studies in the US than just the mere possibility of a (very well remunerated) job in NYC. That is, at least for some of us there are...

Now, the only purpose of the post is to say that the scenario has changed radically since 2006-07, when every LLM graduate got a job offer. The class of 2009 (i.e. those graduating after the late 2008 crisis) was just a disaster: well-connected people with incredible credentials coming from the very best law schools couldn't secure a job. Even hired JDs were deferred to start the following year, as you probably know. Evidence: I know personally that no LLM alumni from two of the top 3 schools could stay in the US to work in 2009 (there was one exception, but due to previous connections, and for limited time).
As I said, for the class of 2010 the forecast is more less the same. However, to be fair, no one knows what's gonna happen for the class of 2011... while some say the job market will be in good shape by then, others remind us that, even if so, there will be a huge number of American JDs that were disconnected in 09-10 waiting to be absorbed (and believe me, any law firm will give them priority).

So, I'm not saying "don't do it;" I'm just saying some of you should think twice. Particularly those of you whose main reason to enroll in (and pay for!) an LLM is to take the Bar and get a job so you can stay for some time gaining valuable experience and earning a six-digit annual salary. My advice would be the following: either you find other equally-powerful reasons to do it so that the "life-plus-work-experience-and-quite-some-extra-cash" stuff is just a non essential part of your LLM experience, or you'd better refrain from it for at least another year to see if things improve.

Trust me.

Oh, no, no, no... I suppose there are many more reasons to pursue graduate studies in the US than just the mere possibility of a (very well remunerated) job in NYC. That is, at least for some of us there are...

Now, the only purpose of the post is to say that the scenario has changed radically since 2006-07, when every LLM graduate got a job offer. The class of 2009 (i.e. those graduating after the late 2008 crisis) was just a disaster: well-connected people with incredible credentials coming from the very best law schools couldn't secure a job. Even hired JDs were deferred to start the following year, as you probably know. Evidence: I know personally that no LLM alumni from two of the top 3 schools could stay in the US to work in 2009 (there was one exception, but due to previous connections, and for limited time).
As I said, for the class of 2010 the forecast is more less the same. However, to be fair, no one knows what's gonna happen for the class of 2011... while some say the job market will be in good shape by then, others remind us that, even if so, there will be a huge number of American JDs that were disconnected in 09-10 waiting to be absorbed (and believe me, any law firm will give them priority).

So, I'm not saying "don't do it;" I'm just saying some of you should think twice. Particularly those of you whose main reason to enroll in (and pay for!) an LLM is to take the Bar and get a job so you can stay for some time gaining valuable experience and earning a six-digit annual salary. My advice would be the following: either you find other equally-powerful reasons to do it so that the "life-plus-work-experience-and-quite-some-extra-cash" stuff is just a non essential part of your LLM experience, or you'd better refrain from it for at least another year to see if things improve.

Trust me.
quote
smartjerry

or you'd better refrain from it for at least another year to see if things improve.


I've already delayed my plan for one year - I was supposed to apply for 09-10 program.
And now, my question is that how many years do we have before we get old and married? Many of us just don't have that much time to wait for a blooming market.

<blockquote> or you'd better refrain from it for at least another year to see if things improve. </blockquote>

I've already delayed my plan for one year - I was supposed to apply for 09-10 program.
And now, my question is that how many years do we have before we get old and married? Many of us just don't have that much time to wait for a blooming market.

quote
pnarg

I'm glad we're making use of this valuable forum to talk about the elephant in the room. I mean, I'm cool with many other questions applicants have, but at some point it frankly worries me that no one confronts such a big issue while threads about "how nervous I am" or "can't wait to hear from harvard" pervade the board.

I take your sarcasm seriously because I think you're making a fair point, and that you're making it respectfully. As long as we keep it that way, this dialogue may end up being useful for all (I guess there are many others thinking exactly as you are).

Yours is a good point not because you're mocking my "perhalps-you-should-wait-one-more-year" advice on its lack of macroeconomic foundation (such a debate should be redirected to other, more subtantive, forums), but rather because you're implying that there are several other variables to be considered when deciding to spend some year(s) of your life abroad (namely, personal ones) and that my advice fails to take them into proper consideration. You seem to be right here.

However, other than displaying your disappointment with the current US job-market situation and the "wait-one-more-year" strategy (that you've employed last year), I really don't see in what sense does your post contradict my previously stated opinion.

I take it that you're one of those applicants whose big LLM project is to study so as to become Bar-eligible, big-lawfirm-hireable, and ultimately to get a job in the US, and therefore my advice is directed to you. I also assume, since you didn't mention my first advice (i.e. that you should find some other equaly-powerful reasons to do the LLM as if getting a job wasn't an option), that this is impossible in your scheme of reasons - which is, of course, entirely understandable.
But if this is the case, then your argument doesn't refute my point at all. It is a truism that the "wait-one-more-year" strategy can't last forever, but let me tell you a dirty little secret: the US economy doesn't care that you, me, or anyone in our shoes is unable to find a job. Is not like they are thinking "oops, we'd better fix it this year before Smartjerry and Pnarg are to old to apply for an LLM." So it may perfectly be the case that you never get to experience the LLM+work-in-NYC thing that you've always wanted, given that you have limited time to do it before it interferes with other life plans you have. But that is just how the world is... (maybe we should think of Haitians for a second before we rush to call it "unfair").

To finish with a less dramatic note, let me recall that no one knows exactly how the job market will be for 2011. We'll just have to see. And of course we're all free to take our chances on that. However, since securing a job is so important to some of you and LLMs are so expensive, I'm just trying to let you guys know a crucial fact before you make such a big decision. That's all.

I'm glad we're making use of this valuable forum to talk about the elephant in the room. I mean, I'm cool with many other questions applicants have, but at some point it frankly worries me that no one confronts such a big issue while threads about "how nervous I am" or "can't wait to hear from harvard" pervade the board.

I take your sarcasm seriously because I think you're making a fair point, and that you're making it respectfully. As long as we keep it that way, this dialogue may end up being useful for all (I guess there are many others thinking exactly as you are).

Yours is a good point not because you're mocking my "perhalps-you-should-wait-one-more-year" advice on its lack of macroeconomic foundation (such a debate should be redirected to other, more subtantive, forums), but rather because you're implying that there are several other variables to be considered when deciding to spend some year(s) of your life abroad (namely, personal ones) and that my advice fails to take them into proper consideration. You seem to be right here.

However, other than displaying your disappointment with the current US job-market situation and the "wait-one-more-year" strategy (that you've employed last year), I really don't see in what sense does your post contradict my previously stated opinion.

I take it that you're one of those applicants whose big LLM project is to study so as to become Bar-eligible, big-lawfirm-hireable, and ultimately to get a job in the US, and therefore my advice is directed to you. I also assume, since you didn't mention my first advice (i.e. that you should find some other equaly-powerful reasons to do the LLM as if getting a job wasn't an option), that this is impossible in your scheme of reasons - which is, of course, entirely understandable.
But if this is the case, then your argument doesn't refute my point at all. It is a truism that the "wait-one-more-year" strategy can't last forever, but let me tell you a dirty little secret: the US economy doesn't care that you, me, or anyone in our shoes is unable to find a job. Is not like they are thinking "oops, we'd better fix it this year before Smartjerry and Pnarg are to old to apply for an LLM." So it may perfectly be the case that you never get to experience the LLM+work-in-NYC thing that you've always wanted, given that you have limited time to do it before it interferes with other life plans you have. But that is just how the world is... (maybe we should think of Haitians for a second before we rush to call it "unfair").

To finish with a less dramatic note, let me recall that no one knows exactly how the job market will be for 2011. We'll just have to see. And of course we're all free to take our chances on that. However, since securing a job is so important to some of you and LLMs are so expensive, I'm just trying to let you guys know a crucial fact before you make such a big decision. That's all.
quote
smartjerry

You are right, pnarg. You can see that I'm not actually refuting your point, instead I'm trying to figure my way out .

I have to admit that finding a job in US is my major goal - of course I also have some other reasons for doing the LLM (e.g. a master degree/networking chances, etc.), but they don't seem to be "equaly powerful " as the job thing.

I totally agree with you that this is not a good time to do an LLM, and I believe most of the applicants are fully aware of it. Doing LLM nowadays is just like gambling - we all know that and that's why I don't feel cheerful at all after I got several ADs.

SO many people like me are now between a rock and a hard place. We've spent a lot of time, energy and money for the application and finally got admitted, it would be such a waste to give it up at the last minute. I'm now trying to find some reason to convince myself - doing LLM in 2010-2011 is not such a bad idea...

Do appreciate it we can all share our thoughts here.

You are right, pnarg. You can see that I'm not actually refuting your point, instead I'm trying to figure my way out .

I have to admit that finding a job in US is my major goal - of course I also have some other reasons for doing the LLM (e.g. a master degree/networking chances, etc.), but they don't seem to be "equaly powerful " as the job thing.

I totally agree with you that this is not a good time to do an LLM, and I believe most of the applicants are fully aware of it. Doing LLM nowadays is just like gambling - we all know that and that's why I don't feel cheerful at all after I got several ADs.

SO many people like me are now between a rock and a hard place. We've spent a lot of time, energy and money for the application and finally got admitted, it would be such a waste to give it up at the last minute. I'm now trying to find some reason to convince myself - doing LLM in 2010-2011 is not such a bad idea...

Do appreciate it we can all share our thoughts here.
quote
MAB79

I heard from the hiring partner of my law firm that the CLS Job Fair is much more professional than the NYU fair...But nevertheless, the same opportunities arise out of both...

I heard from the hiring partner of my law firm that the CLS Job Fair is much more professional than the NYU fair...But nevertheless, the same opportunities arise out of both...
quote
pnarg

Evidently, you're completely aware of the job market collapse and its implications for your LLM project, and you're taking it very seriously. You were aware last year and you're still worried today -as you should be.

I honestly share you concerns, nevertheless, in a way I feel like I'm preaching to the converted. That is to say, I'm not that worried about what might happen to you if you decide to go for the LLM experience right now: you're fully aware of the risk, you're considering carefully the downsides, and hence you'll make an informed decision. Therefore, believe me, even if the "worst" happens (i.e. you do the LLM and don't get a job), I feel like you won't be terribly disappointed because you'll be expecting it. Everyone should be acting like you right now.

However, do you know what freaks me out? The fact that most people who are in your situation have no clue about this, and hence are making uninformed decisions. Most of them are supposedly very smart guys (holders of important records of academic achievement), and yet they are letting themselves be fooled.

The only thing you and I have different opinions about is the following: you say (or imply) that most applicants are aware of the situation:

...this is not a good time to do an LLM, and I believe most of the applicants are fully aware of it.
Doing LLM nowadays is just like gambling - we all know that ...
SO many people like me are now between a rock and a hard place.

... and I couldn't disagree with you more on that.

Take, for example, the guys that have posted on this thread. Borat is asking which job fair is better -presumably, a very important factor in his/her decision about which school to enroll in- AS IF IT WAS 2006! Our friend Viper is shocked to find out that the job fairs are being a fraud and suddenly his/her motivational scheme is disturbed. Lastly, our fellow MAB suggests that opportunities arise from both fairs, as if nothing had happened during the last two editions. (Nothing against you, guys, I'm just trying to make my point that you could use some more information!). Wherever you read in this board people are arguing in favor of, say, Stanford, because "it is better regarded by lawfirms," or Columbia, because "it is located where the jobs are, giving you the advantage of networking." Similarly, law schools say that they are experiencing an increase in applications, and the NY Bar people note how "[t]he number of foreign-educated candidates sitting for the New York bar examination continues to rise" (http://www.nybarexam.org/Docs/SBLE_press_release_July2009results.pdf)!

My God! Guys, wake up! Talk to (informed) people! Doesn't anybody know an LLM from '09??? Wall Street collapsed, the job-market is in intensive care, and there are no jobs for foreign-trained lawyers!!!

I guess the law schools are partially to blame for this terrible misinformation. I've heard that only Penn has fairly explained how hard it is nowadays to get a job for LLMs (only in their admitted students website, though). Read that piece if you can.

Evidently, you're completely aware of the job market collapse and its implications for your LLM project, and you're taking it very seriously. You were aware last year and you're still worried today -as you should be.

I honestly share you concerns, nevertheless, in a way I feel like I'm preaching to the converted. That is to say, I'm not that worried about what might happen to you if you decide to go for the LLM experience right now: you're fully aware of the risk, you're considering carefully the downsides, and hence you'll make an informed decision. Therefore, believe me, even if the "worst" happens (i.e. you do the LLM and don't get a job), I feel like you won't be terribly disappointed because you'll be expecting it. Everyone should be acting like you right now.

However, do you know what freaks me out? The fact that most people who are in your situation have no clue about this, and hence are making uninformed decisions. Most of them are supposedly very smart guys (holders of important records of academic achievement), and yet they are letting themselves be fooled.

The only thing you and I have different opinions about is the following: you say (or imply) that most applicants are aware of the situation:
<blockquote>...this is not a good time to do an LLM, and I believe most of the applicants are fully aware of it.
Doing LLM nowadays is just like gambling - we all know that ...
SO many people like me are now between a rock and a hard place.</blockquote>
... and I couldn't disagree with you more on that.

Take, for example, the guys that have posted on this thread. Borat is asking which job fair is better -presumably, a very important factor in his/her decision about which school to enroll in- AS IF IT WAS 2006! Our friend Viper is shocked to find out that the job fairs are being a fraud and suddenly his/her motivational scheme is disturbed. Lastly, our fellow MAB suggests that opportunities arise from both fairs, as if nothing had happened during the last two editions. (Nothing against you, guys, I'm just trying to make my point that you could use some more information!). Wherever you read in this board people are arguing in favor of, say, Stanford, because "it is better regarded by lawfirms," or Columbia, because "it is located where the jobs are, giving you the advantage of networking." Similarly, law schools say that they are experiencing an increase in applications, and the NY Bar people note how "[t]he number of foreign-educated candidates sitting for the New York bar examination continues to rise" (http://www.nybarexam.org/Docs/SBLE_press_release_July2009results.pdf)!

My God! Guys, wake up! Talk to (informed) people! Doesn't anybody know an LLM from '09??? Wall Street collapsed, the job-market is in intensive care, and there are no jobs for foreign-trained lawyers!!!

I guess the law schools are partially to blame for this terrible misinformation. I've heard that only Penn has fairly explained how hard it is nowadays to get a job for LLMs (only in their admitted students website, though). Read that piece if you can.
quote
spikesf

Evidently, you're completely aware of the job market collapse and its implications for your LLM project, and you're taking it very seriously. You were aware last year and you're still worried today -as you should be.

I honestly share you concerns, nevertheless, in a way I feel like I'm preaching to the converted. That is to say, I'm not that worried about what might happen to you if you decide to go for the LLM experience right now: you're fully aware of the risk, you're considering carefully the downsides, and hence you'll make an informed decision. Therefore, believe me, even if the "worst" happens (i.e. you do the LLM and don't get a job), I feel like you won't be terribly disappointed because you'll be expecting it. Everyone should be acting like you right now.

However, do you know what freaks me out? The fact that most people who are in your situation have no clue about this, and hence are making uninformed decisions. Most of them are supposedly very smart guys (holders of important records of academic achievement), and yet they are letting themselves be fooled.

The only thing you and I have different opinions about is the following: you say (or imply) that most applicants are aware of the situation:
...this is not a good time to do an LLM, and I believe most of the applicants are fully aware of it.
Doing LLM nowadays is just like gambling - we all know that ...
SO many people like me are now between a rock and a hard place.

... and I couldn't disagree with you more on that.

Take, for example, the guys that have posted on this thread. Borat is asking which job fair is better -presumably, a very important factor in his/her decision about which school to enroll in- AS IF IT WAS 2006! Our friend Viper is shocked to find out that the job fairs are being a fraud and suddenly his/her motivational scheme is disturbed. Lastly, our fellow MAB suggests that opportunities arise from both fairs, as if nothing had happened during the last two editions. (Nothing against you, guys, I'm just trying to make my point that you could use some more information!). Wherever you read in this board people are arguing in favor of, say, Stanford, because "it is better regarded by lawfirms," or Columbia, because "it is located where the jobs are, giving you the advantage of networking." Similarly, law schools say that they are experiencing an increase in applications, and the NY Bar people note how "[t]he number of foreign-educated candidates sitting for the New York bar examination continues to rise" (http://www.nybarexam.org/Docs/SBLE_press_release_July2009results.pdf)!

My God! Guys, wake up! Talk to (informed) people! Doesn't anybody know an LLM from '09??? Wall Street collapsed, the job-market is in intensive care, and there are no jobs for foreign-trained lawyers!!!

I guess the law schools are partially to blame for this terrible misinformation. I've heard that only Penn has fairly explained how hard it is nowadays to get a job for LLMs (only in their admitted students website, though). Read that piece if you can.


I support that. I am a European laywer at a magic circle firm and our American offices are having very very very (x 999999) difficult times. If you dream of pursuing a job in the US after your llm, please note that even for the best American students it will be difficult to get one. So for all people doing an LLM in order to get a job in the US, I hope you have other convincing arguments for your LLM because you might get disappointed afterwards.

<blockquote>Evidently, you're completely aware of the job market collapse and its implications for your LLM project, and you're taking it very seriously. You were aware last year and you're still worried today -as you should be.

I honestly share you concerns, nevertheless, in a way I feel like I'm preaching to the converted. That is to say, I'm not that worried about what might happen to you if you decide to go for the LLM experience right now: you're fully aware of the risk, you're considering carefully the downsides, and hence you'll make an informed decision. Therefore, believe me, even if the "worst" happens (i.e. you do the LLM and don't get a job), I feel like you won't be terribly disappointed because you'll be expecting it. Everyone should be acting like you right now.

However, do you know what freaks me out? The fact that most people who are in your situation have no clue about this, and hence are making uninformed decisions. Most of them are supposedly very smart guys (holders of important records of academic achievement), and yet they are letting themselves be fooled.

The only thing you and I have different opinions about is the following: you say (or imply) that most applicants are aware of the situation:
<blockquote>...this is not a good time to do an LLM, and I believe most of the applicants are fully aware of it.
Doing LLM nowadays is just like gambling - we all know that ...
SO many people like me are now between a rock and a hard place.</blockquote>
... and I couldn't disagree with you more on that.

Take, for example, the guys that have posted on this thread. Borat is asking which job fair is better -presumably, a very important factor in his/her decision about which school to enroll in- AS IF IT WAS 2006! Our friend Viper is shocked to find out that the job fairs are being a fraud and suddenly his/her motivational scheme is disturbed. Lastly, our fellow MAB suggests that opportunities arise from both fairs, as if nothing had happened during the last two editions. (Nothing against you, guys, I'm just trying to make my point that you could use some more information!). Wherever you read in this board people are arguing in favor of, say, Stanford, because "it is better regarded by lawfirms," or Columbia, because "it is located where the jobs are, giving you the advantage of networking." Similarly, law schools say that they are experiencing an increase in applications, and the NY Bar people note how "[t]he number of foreign-educated candidates sitting for the New York bar examination continues to rise" (http://www.nybarexam.org/Docs/SBLE_press_release_July2009results.pdf)!

My God! Guys, wake up! Talk to (informed) people! Doesn't anybody know an LLM from '09??? Wall Street collapsed, the job-market is in intensive care, and there are no jobs for foreign-trained lawyers!!!

I guess the law schools are partially to blame for this terrible misinformation. I've heard that only Penn has fairly explained how hard it is nowadays to get a job for LLMs (only in their admitted students website, though). Read that piece if you can.</blockquote>

I support that. I am a European laywer at a magic circle firm and our American offices are having very very very (x 999999) difficult times. If you dream of pursuing a job in the US after your llm, please note that even for the best American students it will be difficult to get one. So for all people doing an LLM in order to get a job in the US, I hope you have other convincing arguments for your LLM because you might get disappointed afterwards.

quote
MAB79

Evidently, you're completely aware of the job market collapse and its implications for your LLM project, and you're taking it very seriously. You were aware last year and you're still worried today -as you should be.

I honestly share you concerns, nevertheless, in a way I feel like I'm preaching to the converted. That is to say, I'm not that worried about what might happen to you if you decide to go for the LLM experience right now: you're fully aware of the risk, you're considering carefully the downsides, and hence you'll make an informed decision. Therefore, believe me, even if the "worst" happens (i.e. you do the LLM and don't get a job), I feel like you won't be terribly disappointed because you'll be expecting it. Everyone should be acting like you right now.

However, do you know what freaks me out? The fact that most people who are in your situation have no clue about this, and hence are making uninformed decisions. Most of them are supposedly very smart guys (holders of important records of academic achievement), and yet they are letting themselves be fooled.

The only thing you and I have different opinions about is the following: you say (or imply) that most applicants are aware of the situation:
...this is not a good time to do an LLM, and I believe most of the applicants are fully aware of it.
Doing LLM nowadays is just like gambling - we all know that ...
SO many people like me are now between a rock and a hard place.

... and I couldn't disagree with you more on that.

Take, for example, the guys that have posted on this thread. Borat is asking which job fair is better -presumably, a very important factor in his/her decision about which school to enroll in- AS IF IT WAS 2006! Our friend Viper is shocked to find out that the job fairs are being a fraud and suddenly his/her motivational scheme is disturbed. Lastly, our fellow MAB suggests that opportunities arise from both fairs, as if nothing had happened during the last two editions. (Nothing against you, guys, I'm just trying to make my point that you could use some more information!). Wherever you read in this board people are arguing in favor of, say, Stanford, because "it is better regarded by lawfirms," or Columbia, because "it is located where the jobs are, giving you the advantage of networking." Similarly, law schools say that they are experiencing an increase in applications, and the NY Bar people note how "[t]he number of foreign-educated candidates sitting for the New York bar examination continues to rise" (http://www.nybarexam.org/Docs/SBLE_press_release_July2009results.pdf)!

My God! Guys, wake up! Talk to (informed) people! Doesn't anybody know an LLM from '09??? Wall Street collapsed, the job-market is in intensive care, and there are no jobs for foreign-trained lawyers!!!

I guess the law schools are partially to blame for this terrible misinformation. I've heard that only Penn has fairly explained how hard it is nowadays to get a job for LLMs (only in their admitted students website, though). Read that piece if you can.


I support that. I am a European laywer at a magic circle firm and our American offices are having very very very (x 999999) difficult times. If you dream of pursuing a job in the US after your llm, please note that even for the best American students it will be difficult to get one. So for all people doing an LLM in order to get a job in the US, I hope you have other convincing arguments for your LLM because you might get disappointed afterwards.



I support that as well! Do not waste your money if you want to earn your LLM degree just because you wish to work in the U.S. afterwards!!

<blockquote><blockquote>Evidently, you're completely aware of the job market collapse and its implications for your LLM project, and you're taking it very seriously. You were aware last year and you're still worried today -as you should be.

I honestly share you concerns, nevertheless, in a way I feel like I'm preaching to the converted. That is to say, I'm not that worried about what might happen to you if you decide to go for the LLM experience right now: you're fully aware of the risk, you're considering carefully the downsides, and hence you'll make an informed decision. Therefore, believe me, even if the "worst" happens (i.e. you do the LLM and don't get a job), I feel like you won't be terribly disappointed because you'll be expecting it. Everyone should be acting like you right now.

However, do you know what freaks me out? The fact that most people who are in your situation have no clue about this, and hence are making uninformed decisions. Most of them are supposedly very smart guys (holders of important records of academic achievement), and yet they are letting themselves be fooled.

The only thing you and I have different opinions about is the following: you say (or imply) that most applicants are aware of the situation:
<blockquote>...this is not a good time to do an LLM, and I believe most of the applicants are fully aware of it.
Doing LLM nowadays is just like gambling - we all know that ...
SO many people like me are now between a rock and a hard place.</blockquote>
... and I couldn't disagree with you more on that.

Take, for example, the guys that have posted on this thread. Borat is asking which job fair is better -presumably, a very important factor in his/her decision about which school to enroll in- AS IF IT WAS 2006! Our friend Viper is shocked to find out that the job fairs are being a fraud and suddenly his/her motivational scheme is disturbed. Lastly, our fellow MAB suggests that opportunities arise from both fairs, as if nothing had happened during the last two editions. (Nothing against you, guys, I'm just trying to make my point that you could use some more information!). Wherever you read in this board people are arguing in favor of, say, Stanford, because "it is better regarded by lawfirms," or Columbia, because "it is located where the jobs are, giving you the advantage of networking." Similarly, law schools say that they are experiencing an increase in applications, and the NY Bar people note how "[t]he number of foreign-educated candidates sitting for the New York bar examination continues to rise" (http://www.nybarexam.org/Docs/SBLE_press_release_July2009results.pdf)!

My God! Guys, wake up! Talk to (informed) people! Doesn't anybody know an LLM from '09??? Wall Street collapsed, the job-market is in intensive care, and there are no jobs for foreign-trained lawyers!!!

I guess the law schools are partially to blame for this terrible misinformation. I've heard that only Penn has fairly explained how hard it is nowadays to get a job for LLMs (only in their admitted students website, though). Read that piece if you can.</blockquote>

I support that. I am a European laywer at a magic circle firm and our American offices are having very very very (x 999999) difficult times. If you dream of pursuing a job in the US after your llm, please note that even for the best American students it will be difficult to get one. So for all people doing an LLM in order to get a job in the US, I hope you have other convincing arguments for your LLM because you might get disappointed afterwards.

</blockquote>

I support that as well! Do not waste your money if you want to earn your LLM degree just because you wish to work in the U.S. afterwards!!
quote
stk

I have to agree with the people posting the remarks above. I am from Europe, I graduated from Columbia with honors last May, I passed the NY Bar Exam and of course I did not find a job! Very few people (maybe 10 or 15) from Columbia found jobs in the US and almost all of them were from Latin America, already working in law firms in their countries that arranged for them to work in the US for a year. As I had friends at Harvard, they told me that the situation was the same for them as well, so I imagine that things might have been even worse for "lower" ranked universities. The situation is extremely difficult even for JDs, so if getting a job is your ONLY reason to pursue and LLM, I suggest to think it twice before making a decision to spend $80,000.

I have to agree with the people posting the remarks above. I am from Europe, I graduated from Columbia with honors last May, I passed the NY Bar Exam and of course I did not find a job! Very few people (maybe 10 or 15) from Columbia found jobs in the US and almost all of them were from Latin America, already working in law firms in their countries that arranged for them to work in the US for a year. As I had friends at Harvard, they told me that the situation was the same for them as well, so I imagine that things might have been even worse for "lower" ranked universities. The situation is extremely difficult even for JDs, so if getting a job is your ONLY reason to pursue and LLM, I suggest to think it twice before making a decision to spend $80,000.
quote
Borat_USA

THANK YOU GUYS.

I believe this is one of the best post/arguments on this board.

I it is very important to clarify the "job" issue, since a lot of the members here are doing an LLM in order to land a job in NYC.

TKS

THANK YOU GUYS.

I believe this is one of the best post/arguments on this board.

I it is very important to clarify the "job" issue, since a lot of the members here are doing an LLM in order to land a job in NYC.

TKS
quote
pumpkin

Very interesting post guys.

I am pursuing an LLM in the US, and would like to work in NY, but that is not my 'ultimate ambition', and not the sole reason why I am pursuing the degree. For what I eventually want to achieve, an LLM would greatly help, and I am realistic in my knowledge that I most probably will not gain a NY position on the back of the degree.
Luckily, there are other reasons as to why I applied in the first place, but I imagine for some (if not most), a job in NY or anywhere in the US for that matter, is the ultimate goal, and it's refreshing to see a post addressing such realistic views.

Thank you for the information!

Very interesting post guys.

I am pursuing an LLM in the US, and would like to work in NY, but that is not my 'ultimate ambition', and not the sole reason why I am pursuing the degree. For what I eventually want to achieve, an LLM would greatly help, and I am realistic in my knowledge that I most probably will not gain a NY position on the back of the degree.
Luckily, there are other reasons as to why I applied in the first place, but I imagine for some (if not most), a job in NY or anywhere in the US for that matter, is the ultimate goal, and it's refreshing to see a post addressing such realistic views.

Thank you for the information!
quote
Santa

One last comment on the NY/Columbia JF issue. It does not matter at all which one your school is attending. Both are on the same weekend and all the big law firms attend both. They make their decisions after interviewing the people at both job fairs.

One last comment on the NY/Columbia JF issue. It does not matter at all which one your school is attending. Both are on the same weekend and all the big law firms attend both. They make their decisions after interviewing the people at both job fairs.
quote
pnarg

Take, for example, the guys that have posted on this thread. Borat is asking which job fair is better -presumably, a very important factor in his/her decision about which school to enroll in- AS IF IT WAS 2006! Our friend Viper is shocked to find out that the job fairs are being a fraud and suddenly his/her motivational scheme is disturbed. Lastly, our fellow MAB suggests that opportunities arise from both fairs, as if nothing had happened during the last two editions.

...And now, unsurprisingly, our colleague Santa mentions a technical detail related to the job-fairs design as if we haven't been making the point about how irrelevant these data are in the present context. (Nothing against you either, Santa - although you should probably read before posting!).

No, I'm not writing again a long post -don't worry. I'm just trying to close the loop on some of the contributions:

1. A great post by Stk tells the 2009 story for Columbia (first hand) and Harvard (second hand). Just to make the picture more complete, the two law schools I said I knew about earlier are Stanford and Yale (both '09), because of a friend and myself. So you can see what we're talking about (and yes, rankings suck, however, if there is someone who to a certain extent takes them into consideration it is US employers).

2. I guess law schools have a powerful incentive not to disclose the job-market information. Any tuition for 2010-11 is around $50k (no living expenses, just academic fees). It's interesting to think of what you can buy with that... I like cars, I'd get a nice pre-owned 1999/2000 Ferrari :-) (check eBay motors, you can get one for that).

3. But, again, seriously, I can't praise Penn's honesty enough. This is the piece I recommended from their admitted student's website (https://goat.law.upenn.edu/admitted/grad/career/), take a time and read it. If you can't access the site, let me know.

<blockquote>Take, for example, the guys that have posted on this thread. Borat is asking which job fair is better -presumably, a very important factor in his/her decision about which school to enroll in- AS IF IT WAS 2006! Our friend Viper is shocked to find out that the job fairs are being a fraud and suddenly his/her motivational scheme is disturbed. Lastly, our fellow MAB suggests that opportunities arise from both fairs, as if nothing had happened during the last two editions.</blockquote>
...And now, unsurprisingly, our colleague Santa mentions a technical detail related to the job-fairs design as if we haven't been making the point about how irrelevant these data are in the present context. (Nothing against you either, Santa - although you should probably read before posting!).

No, I'm not writing again a long post -don't worry. I'm just trying to close the loop on some of the contributions:

1. A great post by Stk tells the 2009 story for Columbia (first hand) and Harvard (second hand). Just to make the picture more complete, the two law schools I said I knew about earlier are Stanford and Yale (both '09), because of a friend and myself. So you can see what we're talking about (and yes, rankings suck, however, if there is someone who to a certain extent takes them into consideration it is US employers).

2. I guess law schools have a powerful incentive not to disclose the job-market information. Any tuition for 2010-11 is around $50k (no living expenses, just academic fees). It's interesting to think of what you can buy with that... I like cars, I'd get a nice pre-owned 1999/2000 Ferrari :-) (check eBay motors, you can get one for that).

3. But, again, seriously, I can't praise Penn's honesty enough. This is the piece I recommended from their admitted student's website (https://goat.law.upenn.edu/admitted/grad/career/), take a time and read it. If you can't access the site, let me know.
quote
MAB79

Take, for example, the guys that have posted on this thread. Borat is asking which job fair is better -presumably, a very important factor in his/her decision about which school to enroll in- AS IF IT WAS 2006! Our friend Viper is shocked to find out that the job fairs are being a fraud and suddenly his/her motivational scheme is disturbed. Lastly, our fellow MAB suggests that opportunities arise from both fairs, as if nothing had happened during the last two editions.

...And now, unsurprisingly, our colleague Santa mentions a technical detail related to the job-fairs design as if we haven't been making the point about how irrelevant these data are in the present context. (Nothing against you either, Santa - although you should probably read before posting!).

No, I'm not writing again a long post -don't worry. I'm just trying to close the loop on some of the contributions:

1. A great post by Stk tells the 2009 story for Columbia (first hand) and Harvard (second hand). Just to make the picture more complete, the two law schools I said I knew about earlier are Stanford and Yale (both '09), because of a friend and myself. So you can see what we're talking about (and yes, rankings suck, however, if there is someone who to a certain extent takes them into consideration it is US employers).

2. I guess law schools have a powerful incentive not to disclose the job-market information. Any tuition for 2010-11 is around $50k (no living expenses, just academic fees). It's interesting to think of what you can buy with that... I like cars, I'd get a nice pre-owned 1999/2000 Ferrari :-) (check eBay motors, you can get one for that).

3. But, again, seriously, I can't praise Penn's honesty enough. This is the piece I recommended from their admitted student's website (https://goat.law.upenn.edu/admitted/grad/career/), take a time and read it. If you can't access the site, let me know.


No, we cannot access the site without a password

<blockquote><blockquote>Take, for example, the guys that have posted on this thread. Borat is asking which job fair is better -presumably, a very important factor in his/her decision about which school to enroll in- AS IF IT WAS 2006! Our friend Viper is shocked to find out that the job fairs are being a fraud and suddenly his/her motivational scheme is disturbed. Lastly, our fellow MAB suggests that opportunities arise from both fairs, as if nothing had happened during the last two editions.</blockquote>
...And now, unsurprisingly, our colleague Santa mentions a technical detail related to the job-fairs design as if we haven't been making the point about how irrelevant these data are in the present context. (Nothing against you either, Santa - although you should probably read before posting!).

No, I'm not writing again a long post -don't worry. I'm just trying to close the loop on some of the contributions:

1. A great post by Stk tells the 2009 story for Columbia (first hand) and Harvard (second hand). Just to make the picture more complete, the two law schools I said I knew about earlier are Stanford and Yale (both '09), because of a friend and myself. So you can see what we're talking about (and yes, rankings suck, however, if there is someone who to a certain extent takes them into consideration it is US employers).

2. I guess law schools have a powerful incentive not to disclose the job-market information. Any tuition for 2010-11 is around $50k (no living expenses, just academic fees). It's interesting to think of what you can buy with that... I like cars, I'd get a nice pre-owned 1999/2000 Ferrari :-) (check eBay motors, you can get one for that).

3. But, again, seriously, I can't praise Penn's honesty enough. This is the piece I recommended from their admitted student's website (https://goat.law.upenn.edu/admitted/grad/career/), take a time and read it. If you can't access the site, let me know.</blockquote>

No, we cannot access the site without a password
quote
Wizard

PNARG

HOW THE HELL DO YOU HAVE PENN'S PASS?

HAVE YOU BEEN ADMITED TO PENN?

ARE YOU CURRENTLY IN THE US?

DO YOU WORK AS A LAWYER IN A BIG LAW FIRM?

PNARG

HOW THE HELL DO YOU HAVE PENN'S PASS?

HAVE YOU BEEN ADMITED TO PENN?

ARE YOU CURRENTLY IN THE US?

DO YOU WORK AS A LAWYER IN A BIG LAW FIRM?
quote
michaelcor...

I have to agree with the people posting the remarks above. I am from Europe, I graduated from Columbia with honors last May, I passed the NY Bar Exam and of course I did not find a job! Very few people (maybe 10 or 15) from Columbia found jobs in the US and almost all of them were from Latin America, already working in law firms in their countries that arranged for them to work in the US for a year. As I had friends at Harvard, they told me that the situation was the same for them as well, so I imagine that things might have been even worse for "lower" ranked universities. The situation is extremely difficult even for JDs, so if getting a job is your ONLY reason to pursue and LLM, I suggest to think it twice before making a decision to spend $80,000.


i'm sorry to shift the discussion, but stk, i need to know how you graduated with honors from CLS whereas it's raining Bs here! it's a snowstorm of Bs! it was really demoralizing when grades came out :(

<blockquote>I have to agree with the people posting the remarks above. I am from Europe, I graduated from Columbia with honors last May, I passed the NY Bar Exam and of course I did not find a job! Very few people (maybe 10 or 15) from Columbia found jobs in the US and almost all of them were from Latin America, already working in law firms in their countries that arranged for them to work in the US for a year. As I had friends at Harvard, they told me that the situation was the same for them as well, so I imagine that things might have been even worse for "lower" ranked universities. The situation is extremely difficult even for JDs, so if getting a job is your ONLY reason to pursue and LLM, I suggest to think it twice before making a decision to spend $80,000. </blockquote>

i'm sorry to shift the discussion, but stk, i need to know how you graduated with honors from CLS whereas it's raining Bs here! it's a snowstorm of Bs! it was really demoralizing when grades came out :(
quote
stk

i'm sorry to shift the discussion, but stk, i need to know how you graduated with honors from CLS whereas it's raining Bs here! it's a snowstorm of Bs! it was really demoralizing when grades came out :(

@michaelcorleone
I have to say that even though my year at Columbia was a one of the best I've ever had (living in New York, making new friends, going to parties and theaters etc), it was also one of the hardest, especially since english is not my first language and when being graded we have the same curve as the JDs have; therefore, of course we, the LLMs are those most likely to end up with the B+s, the Bs and the B-s. So, I studied really, REALLY hard, but I don't think that that is also the reason I did well because everyone studies hard. When I selected courses, I took 3 lectures and 1 seminar so that during the exam period I would have 3 instead of 4 exams to study for and I participated in the class a lot because I wanted to test my views with the professors before the time of the exam. As the honors (Kent Scholars and Harlan Fiske Stone Scholars) are based on all of your grades and not just one bad grade, you'll see that it is not as difficult as we initially think to end up with such an honor. I would have to say that studying for the Bar Exam was 100 times more difficult than studying for Columbia exams (and I know that now that sounds impossible, but unfortunately it is true). So, good luck and if you need any further information, fell free to PM me.

i'm sorry to shift the discussion, but stk, i need to know how you graduated with honors from CLS whereas it's raining Bs here! it's a snowstorm of Bs! it was really demoralizing when grades came out :(</blockquote>

@michaelcorleone
I have to say that even though my year at Columbia was a one of the best I've ever had (living in New York, making new friends, going to parties and theaters etc), it was also one of the hardest, especially since english is not my first language and when being graded we have the same curve as the JDs have; therefore, of course we, the LLMs are those most likely to end up with the B+s, the Bs and the B-s. So, I studied really, REALLY hard, but I don't think that that is also the reason I did well because everyone studies hard. When I selected courses, I took 3 lectures and 1 seminar so that during the exam period I would have 3 instead of 4 exams to study for and I participated in the class a lot because I wanted to test my views with the professors before the time of the exam. As the honors (Kent Scholars and Harlan Fiske Stone Scholars) are based on all of your grades and not just one bad grade, you'll see that it is not as difficult as we initially think to end up with such an honor. I would have to say that studying for the Bar Exam was 100 times more difficult than studying for Columbia exams (and I know that now that sounds impossible, but unfortunately it is true). So, good luck and if you need any further information, fell free to PM me.
quote

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