Hi,
My question is simple, what do you guys think of NYU.
Some people say its a "supermarket" and therefore not a top law school.
The us rankings ranks NYU 4th but this is for JDs. What about LL.M?
What are the chances for an NYU LL.M to be employed? (although employability for LL.M is hard).
In conclusion ...my question is is an NYU LLM worth it? (compared to a Penn LL.M for ex.)

Thanks---

well I guess that the issue is comparable with NYU v Chicago

NYU is a top-5 law school! When you're speaking about top law schools -- the differences between them are very specific and you should be very clear about what LLM means to you in the context of your professional goals.

In terms of employability - IMHO, NYU is one of the best choices. Take a look at Wachtell, Skadden, Sullivan associates & partners...

cheers

yes, NYU is 4th with CLS according to US News only. And Chicago and Upenn are right behind, 5th and 6th. So I think that it isn't so relevant to dispute abt one place in ranking.

But I agree that it depends on what you want to do : field of interest, type of career, etc. However, I doubt graduates from Chicago have more difficulty finding good jobs than NYU graduates. The fact that there are more associates and partners from NYU can simply be explained by 2 factors:
1° larger class size at NYU
2° at NYU, there are more future business lawyers

one more element: according to US news, the acceptance rate at NYU is 21% whereas it is 14,7% at Chicago, which is the same as CLS and not far from HLS (11%).

What would u chose btwn Penn and NYU for a specialization in IP?
...THANK YOU !!!!!

I don't know anything about IP, but here are a couple of additional remarks:

1) Some people have indeed called the NYU an "LL.M. factory". It's a big program, that's true. But I'm not sure how important the size of the program is. Big size has disadvantages, to be sure, but some advantages as well. I've been told that some JD students at NYU don't like LL.M.'s. There might be several reasons for this. Both compete in the NY market and this might create some tension. Additionally, some LL.M. students are very active in classes, discussing the peculiarities of their own legal system. Some JDs might not be that keen on hearing long explanations on how corporations are formed in Mongolia etc. The large number of foreign students aggravates this problem.

You can get an idea of this hostility at xoxohth law school discussion board that has an LL.M. discussion, too.

The bigness of the program might make you feel anonymous at NYU.

On the other hand, NYU has an extremely wide alumni network, which could be useful if you're not staying in the US. Penn is not well known in many countries, I don't know a single lawyer from Scandinavia, who would have studied at Penn (there must be some, of course). I know, however, several who have gone to NYU.

Large number of LL.M. students makes it easier to find people you really like and to organize big parties. Although this is not a decisive factor, it shows that bigness is not only a bad thing.

In deciding which school to choose, I think you're right in emphasizing their respective quality in IP law. Do some research on this. Brian Leiter ranks law school by fields, take a look at what he says.

I don't know anything about IP, but here are a couple of additional remarks:

1) Some people have indeed called the NYU an "LL.M. factory". It's a big program, that's true. But I'm not sure how important the size of the program is. Big size has disadvantages, to be sure, but some advantages as well. I've been told that some JD students at NYU don't like LL.M.'s. There might be several reasons for this. Both compete in the NY market and this might create some tension. Additionally, some LL.M. students are very active in classes, discussing the peculiarities of their own legal system. Some JDs might not be that keen on hearing long explanations on how corporations are formed in Mongolia etc. The large number of foreign students aggravates this problem.

You can get an idea of this hostility at xoxohth law school discussion board that has an LL.M. discussion, too.

The bigness of the program might make you feel anonymous at NYU.

On the other hand, NYU has an extremely wide alumni network, which could be useful if you're not staying in the US. Penn is not well known in many countries, I don't know a single lawyer from Scandinavia, who would have studied at Penn (there must be some, of course). I know, however, several who have gone to NYU.

Large number of LL.M. students makes it easier to find people you really like and to organize big parties. Although this is not a decisive factor, it shows that bigness is not only a bad thing.

In deciding which school to choose, I think you're right in emphasizing their respective quality in IP law. Do some research on this. Brian Leiter ranks law school by fields, take a look at what he says.

If your dilemma is UPenn x NYU, I think you should choose based on academic merits. I do not know much about IP Law, but I am afraid none of the universities you mention is specially famous for its quality in this field (if you take into account the US News rankings in this particular field, NYU is #12 and UPenn is not ranked at all), although I am pretty sure you will have good education in any of them. I think it is a matter of taste: both at UPenn and NYU you will certainly have great opportunities and a good experience in the US. However, do not make the mistake of thinking that by going to a smaller program you will have better employment options, since the factors that matter when you are looking for a job are radically different: it is all about your professional experience, country of origin, field of specialization and LL.M grades. For instance, LLMs specialized in litigation, no matter where they graduated from, have a hard time in their job search, as American lawyers probably think an LLM cannot compete with a JD in this field. .

Ranking for IP laws.
1. University of California-Berkeley
2. Stanford University
3. George Washington University
4. Santa Clara University
5. University of Houston
6. Cardozo-Yeshiva University
7. Duke University
7. Franklin Pierce Law Center
9. Illinois Institute of Technology (Chicago-Kent)
10. Columbia University
11. DePaul University
12. Boston University
12. New York University
14. John Marshall Law School
15. Georgetown University
16. Harvard University
17. Michigan State University
17. University of Washington
19. Case Western Reserve University
19. Fordham University
21. Boston College
21. University of MinnesotaTwin Cities
21. University of TexasAustin
24. George Mason University
24. University of Akron
24. University of Pittsburgh
27. Washington University in St. Louis

Here is Leiter's academic ranking of law schools in business law areas. It doesn't specify IP, but I presume that commercial and corporate law cover IP. NYU and Penn are so close that it's hard to decide between them. One thing you can do is to drop an email to IP persons in your law firm/law school or even at Stanford Law School. "Which is the better law school in IP law, NYU or Penn?" Someone might give you useful information.

"Coverage includes commercial law, corporate law, securities regulation, and antitrust.
1. Harvard University 4.7
2. Columbia University 4.5
3. Stanford University 4.4
University of Chicago 4.4
5. New York University 4.2
6. Yale University 4.1
7. Cornell University 3.9
University of California, Berkeley 3.9
University of Pennsylvania 3.9
10. University of Southern California 3.8
11. Northwestern University 3.7
University of California, Los Angeles 3.7
University of Texas, Austin 3.7
University of Virginia 3.7
15. Georgetown University 3.6
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign 3.6
Vanderbilt University 3.6
18. University of Iowa 3.5
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor 3.5
20. Duke University 3.4
Fordham University 3.4
George Mason University 3.4"

Fully agree with Toni´s suggestion - do some research, talk to alumni, gather data about the course offerings and the professors.

Thank you SOOOO much to both of you !!!
This is really helpful.
Ill do what you advised, thanks :-)
Ivan, about the size of the LL.M, I have a friend @ Penn this year who told me that NYU LLM students had a hard time at the LL.M Job Fair in NY and that most of the law firms did not offer them employment opportunities (as opposed to Columbia/Penn or HLS) ..I dont know if what he says is accurate because he wants me to go for Penn so much that Im not sure about the relevance of his statement.
As you're an NYU LL.M student, can you tell me how it goes "in general" for NYU LL.M students at the Job Fair?

Thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you SOOOO much to both of you !!!
This is really helpful.
Ill do what you advised, thanks :-)
Ivan, about the size of the LL.M, I have a friend @ Penn this year who told me that NYU LLM students had a hard time at the LL.M Job Fair in NY and that most of the law firms did not offer them employment opportunities (as opposed to Columbia/Penn or HLS) ..I dont know if what he says is accurate because he wants me to go for Penn so much that Im not sure about the relevance of his statement.
As you're an NYU LL.M student, can you tell me how it goes "in general" for NYU LL.M students at the Job Fair?

Thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<
Well, Lucinda, obviously I cannot speak for all NYU LLMs (we are so many!), but I should disagree with your Penn colleague (I wonder how he knows soooo much about NYU LLMs). I do not want to engage in discussions about "who´s got the offers from which firm" or "how many NYU LLMs will be working at that firm" here - it is pointless and misleading. There are as many different job search stories as there are different backgrounds, specializations and nationalities. And I am sure that there are people struggling to get interviews here and in every single LLM program - and other people who have easily found their dream jobs... If employment is so important to you, I would suggest you to use the "lawyer search" tool of the websites of some of the NY firms that come to the job fair (e.g. Cleary, Skadden, Simpson) and check how many NYU or UPenn LLMs were hired by NY firms. In any case, do not take any decision based on hearsay - do it for the academic quality of the program. If your decision is based exclusively on rankings or on "the talk of the forum", you may regret it.


Thank you Ivan...Ill do that, check on the website.
Thanks a lot, and all the best
:-)

Hey Ivan- I just did what you advised: checking on some law firms websites if there were any foreign lawyers holding an LL.M from NYU vs Penn.
My conclusions: I only checked for Skadden and Clearly:
I found no Penn LL.M graduate.
However, I did find LL.M graduates from NYU in both (although a few)
:-)
Thanks a lot Ivan, your advise was wise and helpful.

All the best (really),
Lucinda-

Hey Ivan- I just did what you advised: checking on some law firms websites if there were any foreign lawyers holding an LL.M from NYU vs Penn.
My conclusions: I only checked for Skadden and Clearly:
I found no Penn LL.M graduate.
However, I did find LL.M graduates from NYU in both (although a few)
:-)
Thanks a lot Ivan, your advise was wise and helpful.

All the best (really),
Lucinda-

Hi,
My question is simple, what do you guys think of NYU.
Some people say its a "supermarket" and therefore not a top law school.
The us rankings ranks NYU 4th but this is for JDs. What about LL.M?
What are the chances for an NYU LL.M to be employed? (although employability for LL.M is hard).
In conclusion ...my question is is an NYU LLM worth it? (compared to a Penn LL.M for ex.)

Thanks---

Like i said today in other posts, i think being in any of the top 5-10 schools wont matter what will matter if you are going to pay for yourself or the school is paying for you. NYU has a large program and you compete with more people but that has its own advantages and disadvantages. I think for LLM the main criteria should be scholorship and if you dont have it you should go to the school you like the best as people get jobs from top 10 schools and there are people who dont.

Well, I chose NYU because I finally thought that I shouldn't be trapped in such a narrow field as IP only, so I'm opting for the Trade Regulation Program at NYU, I'll see about the choice of subjects once there....
I dont know if it's the 'best' choice, but thats mine, hope it'll be fine :-)
Thanks for all these advices guys anyway-was really helpful!
Ps: OMG, Ive just realized I'm a 3 stars LL.M Guide member now! :-) ..damn I guess I've been harrassing you too much guys ;-)

Hey Guys-
When making the $500 deposit online, how long did it take to get a confirmation from the uni ?
Thanx a lot for the information :-)