How helpful is a LLM?


bhutani_s

i have been confused for some time now and i dont know where to look for the answers. if u guys could help me.

Is doing an llm a good deal. i have read some posts here which ask the same question and the replys are not very encouraging. i am thinking of doind llm in ip. so would it be useful in US(where i am planning to do it from) and in India(where i am from and will practice.) and what are the chances of clearing any bar exam in the us?

Thanks!

i have been confused for some time now and i dont know where to look for the answers. if u guys could help me.

Is doing an llm a good deal. i have read some posts here which ask the same question and the replys are not very encouraging. i am thinking of doind llm in ip. so would it be useful in US(where i am planning to do it from) and in India(where i am from and will practice.) and what are the chances of clearing any bar exam in the us?

Thanks!
quote
techlaw

Dear Bhutani_s,

In my very limited intelligence, I see that US LLM would work for the following.
1)A US JD who wants to specialize in certain area or go into teaching
2)A foreign trained lawyer who wants to practice in US and has a known way of getting a job, has some inside contact in a law firm or has a valuable niche experience (As the facts stand, job placements after LLM are extremely difficult. That is why no law school publishes data on LLM placements like they do for JD or MBA etc.)
3)A foreign trained lawyer for whom USD 50K is not a big deal or who gets some scholarship or funding.
4)A foreign trained lawyer whose market value is going to increase incredibly in his native country with US LLM, whereby he can pay back the 50K loan.

Anybody else is falling into the trap laid by law schools to market their LLM programs, big names included. (There is no published data on placements after LLM from Harvard, NYU, Columbia etc. and for a good reason too). It will just create a financial hole $50K deep.

Let me ask a question. Why would a person like yourself who wants to practice in India would go for US LLM rather than Indian LLM? Does it give you a job paying equivalent of USD 50K or above? In that case, go for it.

Dear Bhutani_s,

In my very limited intelligence, I see that US LLM would work for the following.
1)A US JD who wants to specialize in certain area or go into teaching
2)A foreign trained lawyer who wants to practice in US and has a known way of getting a job, has some inside contact in a law firm or has a valuable niche experience (As the facts stand, job placements after LLM are extremely difficult. That is why no law school publishes data on LLM placements like they do for JD or MBA etc.)
3)A foreign trained lawyer for whom USD 50K is not a big deal or who gets some scholarship or funding.
4)A foreign trained lawyer whose market value is going to increase incredibly in his native country with US LLM, whereby he can pay back the 50K loan.

Anybody else is falling into the trap laid by law schools to market their LLM programs, big names included. (There is no published data on placements after LLM from Harvard, NYU, Columbia etc. and for a good reason too). It will just create a financial hole $50K deep.

Let me ask a question. Why would a person like yourself who wants to practice in India would go for US LLM rather than Indian LLM? Does it give you a job paying equivalent of USD 50K or above? In that case, go for it.
quote
bhutani_s

Hey techlaw! your post has been of tremendous help but as it usually happens answers give way to new set of questions so if u have time how about these:)
a) The reason I want to do LLM form Us is because specialised LLM is not provided in India and they are all two years long. Specialized LLM would begin in IP from the next year but that will be three years long so it doesnt help.
b) Value addition is what i am looking at. Would it be feasible if i give bar exams after LLM, work for some time and then go back.
c) do firms here appreciate lawyers with LLM?
d) And u mentioned about difficulty in placement, so do I presume that the college will not help in placement?
e)is it possible to work with a firm while studying?
f) what do the law firms inUS generally pay LLM people?

Thanks and I will keep on eating ur head!

Hey techlaw! your post has been of tremendous help but as it usually happens answers give way to new set of questions so if u have time how about these:)
a) The reason I want to do LLM form Us is because specialised LLM is not provided in India and they are all two years long. Specialized LLM would begin in IP from the next year but that will be three years long so it doesn’t help.
b) Value addition is what i am looking at. Would it be feasible if i give bar exams after LLM, work for some time and then go back.
c) do firms here appreciate lawyers with LLM?
d) And u mentioned about difficulty in placement, so do I presume that the college will not help in placement?
e)is it possible to work with a firm while studying?
f) what do the law firms inUS generally pay LLM people?

Thanks and I will keep on eating ur head!
quote
peyile

Hi , am from India and planning to do LLM in U.S in IP. I plan to work in the U.S or inE.U.So is a placement for job possible? Do share me your inputs.Thanks

Hi , am from India and planning to do LLM in U.S in IP. I plan to work in the U.S or inE.U.So is a placement for job possible? Do share me your inputs.Thanks
quote
bhutani_s

definitely ! as soon as i get to know any thing! because it will not be a very nice feeling if i end up spending so much and gain nothing out of it!

definitely ! as soon as i get to know any thing! because it will not be a very nice feeling if i end up spending so much and gain nothing out of it!
quote
techlaw

"b) Value addition is what i am looking at. Would it be feasible if i give bar exams after LLM, work for some time and then go back."
The question to ask would be 'Would US LLM put you in a position to get atleast equivalent of UD$ 25K per year in India so you can think of breaking even with your LLM cost in 4-5 years?' If answer is yes, go for US LLM.

"c) do firms here appreciate lawyers with LLM?"
US firms want people with JDs. That's general rule. in very rare cases, if you have a specialized niche experience that they need, they might hire you.

"d) And u mentioned about difficulty in placement, so do I presume that the college will not help in placement? "
Colleges and law school do want to help. Why not? The problem is as a general rule, employers i.e. law firms dont want to hire people without JDs.
"e)is it possible to work with a firm while studying?
Firstly, law school is very demanding and secondly, well paid legal jobs are not that easy to get.

"f) what do the law firms inUS generally pay LLM people?"
Again, if you have something special to offer that they need, pay can be very good.

Here is a exercise you can do that I posted from my personal experience.
The published data for JD job placements is, on an average, only 30% JDs (including from top law schools) get jobs. Which means 70% JDs do not get jobs.

There is no published data for LLM placements. Schools are also silent on this point.

I have sent e mails to LLM admissions offices of some 15 law schools, asking them directly about the placements after LLM. Either there were no replies or vague replies. No specific data.

I browsed thru web sites of about 25 top law firms and 25 medium sized law firms. Only one or two firms mention clearly that they do not hire LLMs. Encouraged by this, I sent e mails to around 40 law firms. I mentioned my credentials as LLB from Canada with top 1% of class (this is true) and SPILS from Stanford (which I dont yet have but just wanted to get a feel for response from Law firms). There were no replies.

The best source I found was past LLM students from the schools. Some were available on this site and respond quite candidly about their experiences. From that I could put the LLM placements percentage, on an average, to about 2 to 4%.

This has nothing to do with any nationality, I dont think so. It would be quite wrong to say this about one nationality.

"b) Value addition is what i am looking at. Would it be feasible if i give bar exams after LLM, work for some time and then go back."
The question to ask would be 'Would US LLM put you in a position to get atleast equivalent of UD$ 25K per year in India so you can think of breaking even with your LLM cost in 4-5 years?' If answer is yes, go for US LLM.

"c) do firms here appreciate lawyers with LLM?"
US firms want people with JDs. That's general rule. in very rare cases, if you have a specialized niche experience that they need, they might hire you.

"d) And u mentioned about difficulty in placement, so do I presume that the college will not help in placement? "
Colleges and law school do want to help. Why not? The problem is as a general rule, employers i.e. law firms dont want to hire people without JDs.
"e)is it possible to work with a firm while studying?
Firstly, law school is very demanding and secondly, well paid legal jobs are not that easy to get.

"f) what do the law firms inUS generally pay LLM people?"
Again, if you have something special to offer that they need, pay can be very good.

Here is a exercise you can do that I posted from my personal experience.
The published data for JD job placements is, on an average, only 30% JDs (including from top law schools) get jobs. Which means 70% JDs do not get jobs.

There is no published data for LLM placements. Schools are also silent on this point.

I have sent e mails to LLM admissions offices of some 15 law schools, asking them directly about the placements after LLM. Either there were no replies or vague replies. No specific data.

I browsed thru web sites of about 25 top law firms and 25 medium sized law firms. Only one or two firms mention clearly that they do not hire LLMs. Encouraged by this, I sent e mails to around 40 law firms. I mentioned my credentials as LLB from Canada with top 1% of class (this is true) and SPILS from Stanford (which I dont yet have but just wanted to get a feel for response from Law firms). There were no replies.

The best source I found was past LLM students from the schools. Some were available on this site and respond quite candidly about their experiences. From that I could put the LLM placements percentage, on an average, to about 2 to 4%.

This has nothing to do with any nationality, I dont think so. It would be quite wrong to say this about one nationality.


quote
techlaw

I am not saying the numbers are accurate. They are the result of survey by one person.

What is important, in my opinion, is to do the research for yourself. Talk to past students. This gives a good info.

Create a resume of a "future you after LLM" and send it to as many law firms as you can who might be interested. (Needless to say, dont give your real name etc. else when you do apply next year, it might create problems. Give a imaginary name but keep all other qualifications same. Add LLM to those qualifications from the school you intend to attend and the specialization i.e. create a resume of a "future you after LLM". I know this is not a 100% honest way to do this but in absense of any reliable data, before you invest $50K of your money, I would do this. But its really upto you.)

And you will get the idea about your own percentage numbers. They may not be "universally accurate" but they will hold validity for you. Good luck!

I am not saying the numbers are accurate. They are the result of survey by one person.

What is important, in my opinion, is to do the research for yourself. Talk to past students. This gives a good info.

Create a resume of a "future you after LLM" and send it to as many law firms as you can who might be interested. (Needless to say, dont give your real name etc. else when you do apply next year, it might create problems. Give a imaginary name but keep all other qualifications same. Add LLM to those qualifications from the school you intend to attend and the specialization i.e. create a resume of a "future you after LLM". I know this is not a 100% honest way to do this but in absense of any reliable data, before you invest $50K of your money, I would do this. But its really upto you.)

And you will get the idea about your own percentage numbers. They may not be "universally accurate" but they will hold validity for you. Good luck!

quote
student02

Hi Techlaw, I am talking from the experiences of a friend of mine. I guess for an Indian LLB student getting a US Law school would definitely increase his or her market value especially in India. Moreover , if you do get admitted to a us Law School, with some amount of financial aid, educational loan, personal resources, you might try looking for jobs and networking right away. Its not impossible and a friend of mine has just managed to land herself a very good job at a well-paying law firm inspite of being a fresh graduate. Then there are others from well known law schools in India who are working at well know law firms in the US after appearing for the bar exam, so if you really want to go for the degree go ahead.

Hi Techlaw, I am talking from the experiences of a friend of mine. I guess for an Indian LLB student getting a US Law school would definitely increase his or her market value especially in India. Moreover , if you do get admitted to a us Law School, with some amount of financial aid, educational loan, personal resources, you might try looking for jobs and networking right away. Its not impossible and a friend of mine has just managed to land herself a very good job at a well-paying law firm inspite of being a fresh graduate. Then there are others from well known law schools in India who are working at well know law firms in the US after appearing for the bar exam, so if you really want to go for the degree go ahead.
quote
techlaw

Thanks Student02. Your reply is very encouraging.

" Its not impossible and a friend of mine has just managed to land herself a very good job at a well-paying law firm inspite of being a fresh graduate."
May I ask which firm? I would like to explore my chances with them. Also, if possible, e mail id of your friend.

"Then there are others from well known law schools in India who are working at well know law firms in the US after appearing for the bar exam,"
Ditto as above i.e. may I ask which firms? I would like to explore my chances with them.

Thanks Student02. Your reply is very encouraging.

" Its not impossible and a friend of mine has just managed to land herself a very good job at a well-paying law firm inspite of being a fresh graduate."
May I ask which firm? I would like to explore my chances with them. Also, if possible, e mail id of your friend.

"Then there are others from well known law schools in India who are working at well know law firms in the US after appearing for the bar exam,"
Ditto as above i.e. may I ask which firms? I would like to explore my chances with them.
quote

Techlaw: you are not receiving job offers b/c you are adopting the wrong strategy. You cannot send resumes to HR in the hope that top law firms will contact/hire you. This Hail Mary strategy does not work in the US or elsewhere. This is how you will land a job in the US after the LLM:

1) Contacts talk to your law firm in your home country (for obvious reasons they will not help you with a permanent position) , talk to friends, talk to alumni and talk to clients that you have worked with in the past.

2) Job Fair there are 2 job fairs for LLMs (Columbia and NYU). Ivy league schools and Stanford attend the Columbia job fair. Other 30 schools attend NYUs.

3) Professors they can really help you if you get to know them. A research or teaching position with a top professor can be extremely helpful to land a job after the LLM.

Finally, nationality does matter. A lot.

Cheers,

Techlaw: you are not receiving job offers b/c you are adopting the wrong strategy. You cannot send resumes to HR in the hope that top law firms will contact/hire you. This “Hail Mary” strategy does not work in the US or elsewhere. This is how you will land a job in the US after the LLM:

1) Contacts – talk to your law firm in your home country (for obvious reasons they will not help you with a permanent position) , talk to friends, talk to alumni and talk to clients that you have worked with in the past.

2) Job Fair – there are 2 job fairs for LLMs (Columbia and NYU). Ivy league schools and Stanford attend the Columbia job fair. Other 30 schools attend NYU’s.

3) Professors – they can really help you if you get to know them. A research or teaching position with a top professor can be extremely helpful to land a job after the LLM.

Finally, nationality does matter. A lot.

Cheers,
quote
techlaw

1. Contacts: I could't agree more. If you have a contact or make one, you might be able to get a job. Agreed.
2. Job fairs: There never is a published data about LLM placements after these job fairs, and I would say for obvious reasons too.
3. Nationality: Are you saying some nationalities are preferred over others? If yes, why you say so and which ones are preferred?

1. Contacts: I could't agree more. If you have a contact or make one, you might be able to get a job. Agreed.
2. Job fairs: There never is a published data about LLM placements after these job fairs, and I would say for obvious reasons too.
3. Nationality: Are you saying some nationalities are preferred over others? If yes, why you say so and which ones are preferred?
quote

I am not saying it's easy to land a job after the LLM. Actually, it is damn hard and everybody should know that. It is true, there is no data about LLM placement. I recommend you ask current and past students of the schools you are interested in. I can help you with Stanford:

Approximately 66% of the 2005 Stanford LLMs/SPILS received job offers and are currently working in the US. Many of the remaining 33% didnt want to stay (they are judges, professors, etc).

Each and everyone of the nine Brazilian who went to Stanford since the first year of the LLM program (2002) land a job after the LLM.

Approximately 50% of the LLMs who got a job stayed in the west coast working for top law firms and venture capital firms. 25% went to NYC and 25% ended up in DC.

The small size of the program helps a lot when it comes to get acquainted with faculty. The #2 position (ahead of Harvard) helps a lot in general.

Let me know if you have any questions.

I am not saying it's easy to land a job after the LLM. Actually, it is damn hard and everybody should know that. It is true, there is no data about LLM placement. I recommend you ask current and past students of the schools you are interested in. I can help you with Stanford:

Approximately 66% of the 2005 Stanford LLMs/SPILS received job offers and are currently working in the US. Many of the remaining 33% didn’t want to stay (they are judges, professors, etc).

Each and everyone of the nine Brazilian who went to Stanford since the first year of the LLM program (2002) land a job after the LLM.

Approximately 50% of the LLMs who got a job stayed in the west coast working for top law firms and venture capital firms. 25% went to NYC and 25% ended up in DC.

The small size of the program helps a lot when it comes to get acquainted with faculty. The #2 position (ahead of Harvard) helps a lot in general.

Let me know if you have any questions.
quote
techlaw

Thanks a lot. This is a very positive and encouraging reply.

Thanks a lot. This is a very positive and encouraging reply.
quote
bhutani_s

thanks guys! putting the posts together one gets a farily good idea about the LLM senario and the jobs thereafter. but the i have another nagging question. here it goes...

there are diiferent rankings for specialised and non specialised LLM courses, which ones are more accepted and recognised. e.g. George washinton university is no ranked very high for normal LLM but it is ranked third for IP. why so?

thanks guys! putting the posts together one gets a farily good idea about the LLM senario and the jobs thereafter. but the i have another nagging question. here it goes...

there are diiferent rankings for specialised and non specialised LLM courses, which ones are more accepted and recognised. e.g. George washinton university is no ranked very high for normal LLM but it is ranked third for IP. why so?
quote
peyile

Many thanks to you all ....am ever grateful.Some dreams just refused to die so we keep on hoping for the best...till than bye ciao....

Many thanks to you all ....am ever grateful.Some dreams just refused to die so we keep on hoping for the best...till than bye ciao....
quote

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