Moe,
You might want to look into the program at the University of Maryland.
Talk to 'Crystal Edwards' -- she is the Dean of admissions and she is a wonderful lady. They are not looking for cookie cutter candidates so you might be a good fit. I am *not* a cookie cutter candidate myself :-). Some schools are willing to oversee the deadline for prospective students.
The good thing about the program at Maryland is that after graduation you will be eligible to sit the bar there.
If I also get into Maryland, it will be a VERY tough decision for me. I really like the school and their commitment to public service.
Feel free to message me.
~Jitana
GWU 2013-2014
Posted Apr 09, 2013 13:33
0
Moe,
You might want to look into the program at the University of Maryland.
Talk to 'Crystal Edwards' -- she is the Dean of admissions and she is a wonderful lady. They are not looking for cookie cutter candidates so you might be a good fit. I am *not* a cookie cutter candidate myself :-). Some schools are willing to oversee the deadline for prospective students.
The good thing about the program at Maryland is that after graduation you will be eligible to sit the bar there.
If I also get into Maryland, it will be a VERY tough decision for me. I really like the school and their commitment to public service.
Feel free to message me.
~Jitana
You might want to look into the program at the University of Maryland.
Talk to 'Crystal Edwards' -- she is the Dean of admissions and she is a wonderful lady. They are not looking for cookie cutter candidates so you might be a good fit. I am *not* a cookie cutter candidate myself :-). Some schools are willing to oversee the deadline for prospective students.
The good thing about the program at Maryland is that after graduation you will be eligible to sit the bar there.
If I also get into Maryland, it will be a VERY tough decision for me. I really like the school and their commitment to public service.
Feel free to message me.
~Jitana
Posted Apr 26, 2013 06:54
0
hello, everyone! any updates so far in the admission and scholarship? share your thoughts here.
hello, everyone! any updates so far in the admission and scholarship? share your thoughts here.
Posted Apr 28, 2013 12:44
0
Maybe we should start a facebook group?
I can set it up after I finish with my thesis -- damned thesis --- ARRRRRGH!!!!!
Just one more day of writing!
I can't wait to start at GW. I plan to have a celebration at my house after orientation -- I hope everyone comes!
~Jitana
(pray for me that I can finish writing 3,500 words today :-))
Maybe we should start a facebook group?
I can set it up after I finish with my thesis -- damned thesis --- ARRRRRGH!!!!!
Just one more day of writing!
I can't wait to start at GW. I plan to have a celebration at my house after orientation -- I hope everyone comes!
~Jitana
(pray for me that I can finish writing 3,500 words today :-))
I can set it up after I finish with my thesis -- damned thesis --- ARRRRRGH!!!!!
Just one more day of writing!
I can't wait to start at GW. I plan to have a celebration at my house after orientation -- I hope everyone comes!
~Jitana
(pray for me that I can finish writing 3,500 words today :-))
Posted Apr 28, 2013 23:32
0
Hello everyone!! This is the thread of those who are interested to enroll at GWU this Fall 2013-2014 and those who patiently waiting for the release of the results of the admission and scholarship decision. Come on and let us share and exchange ideas! any updates so far?
Hi guys!!! I am from India and I had applied to various US Colleges for an LLM in IP. I have been admitted to Berkeley and GW. Additionally, GW has awarded me the Thomas Beurgenthal Scholarship (50% tuition waiver).
I am very confused: Whether to take the 50% Scholarship or go to Berkeley. Things weighing in my mind are that on the one hand Berkeley is among the top 10 colleges in US and also number one for IP. On the other hand, GW is also a very good college and number 3 for IP.
Hope you guys can help me decide!!!
Regards,
Anshul
Berkeley is a much bigger name overall (both in the US and overseas) than George Washington U and Berkeley also has the top IP program in the country, in large part because of its top engineering program and, more importantly, because it is right next to Silicon Valley, which gives you access to a lot of firms and companies that deal with IP work. George Washington is in DC, which is the home of the Patent and Trademark Office but, especially as an international student, getting an internship there, let alone a job, will be hard. If the cost is about the same for the two schools, I would advise you to go to UC Berkeley. Do not get me wrong, George Washington is a fine law school but has a hard time competing with Berkeley's reputation.
<blockquote><blockquote>Hello everyone!! This is the thread of those who are interested to enroll at GWU this Fall 2013-2014 and those who patiently waiting for the release of the results of the admission and scholarship decision. Come on and let us share and exchange ideas! any updates so far? </blockquote>
Hi guys!!! I am from India and I had applied to various US Colleges for an LLM in IP. I have been admitted to Berkeley and GW. Additionally, GW has awarded me the Thomas Beurgenthal Scholarship (50% tuition waiver).
I am very confused: Whether to take the 50% Scholarship or go to Berkeley. Things weighing in my mind are that on the one hand Berkeley is among the top 10 colleges in US and also number one for IP. On the other hand, GW is also a very good college and number 3 for IP.
Hope you guys can help me decide!!!
Regards,
Anshul</blockquote>
Berkeley is a much bigger name overall (both in the US and overseas) than George Washington U and Berkeley also has the top IP program in the country, in large part because of its top engineering program and, more importantly, because it is right next to Silicon Valley, which gives you access to a lot of firms and companies that deal with IP work. George Washington is in DC, which is the home of the Patent and Trademark Office but, especially as an international student, getting an internship there, let alone a job, will be hard. If the cost is about the same for the two schools, I would advise you to go to UC Berkeley. Do not get me wrong, George Washington is a fine law school but has a hard time competing with Berkeley's reputation.
Hi guys!!! I am from India and I had applied to various US Colleges for an LLM in IP. I have been admitted to Berkeley and GW. Additionally, GW has awarded me the Thomas Beurgenthal Scholarship (50% tuition waiver).
I am very confused: Whether to take the 50% Scholarship or go to Berkeley. Things weighing in my mind are that on the one hand Berkeley is among the top 10 colleges in US and also number one for IP. On the other hand, GW is also a very good college and number 3 for IP.
Hope you guys can help me decide!!!
Regards,
Anshul</blockquote>
Berkeley is a much bigger name overall (both in the US and overseas) than George Washington U and Berkeley also has the top IP program in the country, in large part because of its top engineering program and, more importantly, because it is right next to Silicon Valley, which gives you access to a lot of firms and companies that deal with IP work. George Washington is in DC, which is the home of the Patent and Trademark Office but, especially as an international student, getting an internship there, let alone a job, will be hard. If the cost is about the same for the two schools, I would advise you to go to UC Berkeley. Do not get me wrong, George Washington is a fine law school but has a hard time competing with Berkeley's reputation.
Posted Apr 29, 2013 08:35
0
I do believe that being admitted to one of the 20 best US law schools is a good accomplishment.I mean that when we apply all of us for a job like for instance to a firm, we are all going through the interview process.Students from GW, HARVARD,COLUMBIA etc!! Am I right?so, the one who gets the job wont be because of the law school solely, but it will depend on its character and various other facts.what I d like to ask you is this!!even if GW is ranked lower than Georgetown is the US, I do know that outside the US its reputation is higher!!why is that?I have applied to the Business and Finance LLM at GW, and to the same at GTown.both are top tier US schools and I give no importance to rankings as they r based on JDs and not LLMs.Without a doubt LLMs are not likely to find permanent job in the US because of the general financial crisis,but what I see is that many underestimate GWs value..so I d like to know especially, from previous LLM students, whether or not GW has a nice program, the teachers are friendly and the university itself participates to events and interviews from prospective employers in order to help its LLMs.
Thank you in advance!
I do believe that being admitted to one of the 20 best US law schools is a good accomplishment.I mean that when we apply all of us for a job like for instance to a firm, we are all going through the interview process.Students from GW, HARVARD,COLUMBIA etc!! Am I right?so, the one who gets the job wont be because of the law school solely, but it will depend on its character and various other facts.what I d like to ask you is this!!even if GW is ranked lower than Georgetown is the US, I do know that outside the US its reputation is higher!!why is that?I have applied to the Business and Finance LLM at GW, and to the same at GTown.both are top tier US schools and I give no importance to rankings as they r based on JDs and not LLMs.Without a doubt LLMs are not likely to find permanent job in the US because of the general financial crisis,but what I see is that many underestimate GWs value..so I d like to know especially, from previous LLM students, whether or not GW has a nice program, the teachers are friendly and the university itself participates to events and interviews from prospective employers in order to help its LLMs.
Thank you in advance!
Thank you in advance!
Posted Apr 29, 2013 16:56
0
I do believe that being admitted to one of the 20 best US law schools is a good accomplishment.I mean that when we apply all of us for a job like for instance to a firm, we are all going through the interview process.Students from GW, HARVARD,COLUMBIA etc!! Am I right?so, the one who gets the job wont be because of the law school solely, but it will depend on its character and various other facts.what I d like to ask you is this!!even if GW is ranked lower than Georgetown is the US, I do know that outside the US its reputation is higher!!why is that?I have applied to the Business and Finance LLM at GW, and to the same at GTown.both are top tier US schools and I give no importance to rankings as they r based on JDs and not LLMs.Without a doubt LLMs are not likely to find permanent job in the US because of the general financial crisis,but what I see is that many underestimate GWs value..so I d like to know especially, from previous LLM students, whether or not GW has a nice program, the teachers are friendly and the university itself participates to events and interviews from prospective employers in order to help its LLMs.
Thank you in advance!
You should know that GWU has a very fine law school, and has an especially top reputation in IP and international law. You should feel good about being accepted. GWU has a strong faculty, it is in the heart of Washington, DC. It has a lot great things going for it. That being said, you have to understand that Georgetown just has a slightly better name, as does Berkeley, Harvard, Columbia, Michigan, Standford. And it is not because of the law school but, in particular, because the Stanfords, Harvards, as a whole, have a better reputation. More people overseas heard of Stanford, Harvard, Michigan, Princeton, Yale than George Washington, because these universities, as a whole, have a slightly better reputation. They have better programs in engineering, medicine, natural sciences, social sciences, undergraduate studies, etc. GWU is a good university but lags behind these other schools. It used to be ranked in the 50s for undergraduate studies but is unranked now because the university misreported data to US news. The Times ranks GWU #135, whereas Yale is 11, Columbia 12, Michigan 18. Again, it is not that GWU's law school is not a fine law school but it is more of, as a whole, GWU does not have as big of a reputation as the Harvards, Michigans, Columbias, etc. In DC, GWU, American, Catholic, and Howard have always lived in the shadow of Georgetown University, mainly because Georgetown is the older, more established, premier university in town. As for job prospects, there are plenty of JDs from GWU at large firms, international institutions, government jobs, etc., but as you said, as a foreign LL.M. student, you will likely have a very very difficult time securing employment in the U.S. An unpaid internship at the World Bank, IMF, or the like, that may eventually turn into a job if you are lucky, is possible if you network like crazy and meet the right people. An associate position at a major firm, very very unlikely. In closing, I would say that you should feel proud of being accepted to GWU, should not dwell too much on what school has a slightly bigger name, enjoy GWU, enjoy DC, and have fun.
<blockquote>I do believe that being admitted to one of the 20 best US law schools is a good accomplishment.I mean that when we apply all of us for a job like for instance to a firm, we are all going through the interview process.Students from GW, HARVARD,COLUMBIA etc!! Am I right?so, the one who gets the job wont be because of the law school solely, but it will depend on its character and various other facts.what I d like to ask you is this!!even if GW is ranked lower than Georgetown is the US, I do know that outside the US its reputation is higher!!why is that?I have applied to the Business and Finance LLM at GW, and to the same at GTown.both are top tier US schools and I give no importance to rankings as they r based on JDs and not LLMs.Without a doubt LLMs are not likely to find permanent job in the US because of the general financial crisis,but what I see is that many underestimate GWs value..so I d like to know especially, from previous LLM students, whether or not GW has a nice program, the teachers are friendly and the university itself participates to events and interviews from prospective employers in order to help its LLMs.
Thank you in advance!</blockquote>
You should know that GWU has a very fine law school, and has an especially top reputation in IP and international law. You should feel good about being accepted. GWU has a strong faculty, it is in the heart of Washington, DC. It has a lot great things going for it. That being said, you have to understand that Georgetown just has a slightly better name, as does Berkeley, Harvard, Columbia, Michigan, Standford. And it is not because of the law school but, in particular, because the Stanfords, Harvards, as a whole, have a better reputation. More people overseas heard of Stanford, Harvard, Michigan, Princeton, Yale than George Washington, because these universities, as a whole, have a slightly better reputation. They have better programs in engineering, medicine, natural sciences, social sciences, undergraduate studies, etc. GWU is a good university but lags behind these other schools. It used to be ranked in the 50s for undergraduate studies but is unranked now because the university misreported data to US news. The Times ranks GWU #135, whereas Yale is 11, Columbia 12, Michigan 18. Again, it is not that GWU's law school is not a fine law school but it is more of, as a whole, GWU does not have as big of a reputation as the Harvards, Michigans, Columbias, etc. In DC, GWU, American, Catholic, and Howard have always lived in the shadow of Georgetown University, mainly because Georgetown is the older, more established, premier university in town. As for job prospects, there are plenty of JDs from GWU at large firms, international institutions, government jobs, etc., but as you said, as a foreign LL.M. student, you will likely have a very very difficult time securing employment in the U.S. An unpaid internship at the World Bank, IMF, or the like, that may eventually turn into a job if you are lucky, is possible if you network like crazy and meet the right people. An associate position at a major firm, very very unlikely. In closing, I would say that you should feel proud of being accepted to GWU, should not dwell too much on what school has a slightly bigger name, enjoy GWU, enjoy DC, and have fun.
Thank you in advance!</blockquote>
You should know that GWU has a very fine law school, and has an especially top reputation in IP and international law. You should feel good about being accepted. GWU has a strong faculty, it is in the heart of Washington, DC. It has a lot great things going for it. That being said, you have to understand that Georgetown just has a slightly better name, as does Berkeley, Harvard, Columbia, Michigan, Standford. And it is not because of the law school but, in particular, because the Stanfords, Harvards, as a whole, have a better reputation. More people overseas heard of Stanford, Harvard, Michigan, Princeton, Yale than George Washington, because these universities, as a whole, have a slightly better reputation. They have better programs in engineering, medicine, natural sciences, social sciences, undergraduate studies, etc. GWU is a good university but lags behind these other schools. It used to be ranked in the 50s for undergraduate studies but is unranked now because the university misreported data to US news. The Times ranks GWU #135, whereas Yale is 11, Columbia 12, Michigan 18. Again, it is not that GWU's law school is not a fine law school but it is more of, as a whole, GWU does not have as big of a reputation as the Harvards, Michigans, Columbias, etc. In DC, GWU, American, Catholic, and Howard have always lived in the shadow of Georgetown University, mainly because Georgetown is the older, more established, premier university in town. As for job prospects, there are plenty of JDs from GWU at large firms, international institutions, government jobs, etc., but as you said, as a foreign LL.M. student, you will likely have a very very difficult time securing employment in the U.S. An unpaid internship at the World Bank, IMF, or the like, that may eventually turn into a job if you are lucky, is possible if you network like crazy and meet the right people. An associate position at a major firm, very very unlikely. In closing, I would say that you should feel proud of being accepted to GWU, should not dwell too much on what school has a slightly bigger name, enjoy GWU, enjoy DC, and have fun.
Posted Apr 29, 2013 17:10
0
Tristan thank you very much for the immediate response.Still tryin to decide what I m gonna do.Probably I will join GW. Besides, my theory is that we dont need no education (the song) as ->Good lawyers are not made only because of the law schools.Take care and if you enroll as well,looking forward to meeting you in DC.
Tristan thank you very much for the immediate response.Still tryin to decide what I m gonna do.Probably I will join GW. Besides, my theory is that we dont need no education (the song) as ->Good lawyers are not made only because of the law schools.Take care and if you enroll as well,looking forward to meeting you in DC.
Posted Apr 29, 2013 20:20
0
Hi Guys!!
Jitana, Starlight, tsis and Tristan thanks for all the guidance in helping me reach a decision. I have finally decided to accept the Berkeley offer. Turning down the GW Scholarship was one of the most difficult decisions of my life. But as Starlight puts it, "follow your heart." :) I guess that's what I am doing!!
All the best to all of you and my best wishes are with you!!
Anshul
P.S - Jitana I am sorry I completely missed your reply to my query back when u posted it. It's only now that I have seen it. Thanks a ton for taking the time to write such a detailed and accurate post.
Hi Guys!!
Jitana, Starlight, tsis and Tristan thanks for all the guidance in helping me reach a decision. I have finally decided to accept the Berkeley offer. Turning down the GW Scholarship was one of the most difficult decisions of my life. But as Starlight puts it, "follow your heart." :) I guess that's what I am doing!!
All the best to all of you and my best wishes are with you!!
Anshul
P.S - Jitana I am sorry I completely missed your reply to my query back when u posted it. It's only now that I have seen it. Thanks a ton for taking the time to write such a detailed and accurate post.
Jitana, Starlight, tsis and Tristan thanks for all the guidance in helping me reach a decision. I have finally decided to accept the Berkeley offer. Turning down the GW Scholarship was one of the most difficult decisions of my life. But as Starlight puts it, "follow your heart." :) I guess that's what I am doing!!
All the best to all of you and my best wishes are with you!!
Anshul
P.S - Jitana I am sorry I completely missed your reply to my query back when u posted it. It's only now that I have seen it. Thanks a ton for taking the time to write such a detailed and accurate post.
Posted Apr 29, 2013 21:04
0
Hi Guys!!
Jitana, Starlight, tsis and Tristan thanks for all the guidance in helping me reach a decision. I have finally decided to accept the Berkeley offer. Turning down the GW Scholarship was one of the most difficult decisions of my life. But as Starlight puts it, "follow your heart." :) I guess that's what I am doing!!
All the best to all of you and my best wishes are with you!!
Anshul
P.S - Jitana I am sorry I completely missed your reply to my query back when u posted it. It's only now that I have seen it. Thanks a ton for taking the time to write such a detailed and accurate post.
I think you made a fine decision. Berkeley is one of the finest institutions in the world, and its name opens doors. In IP law, it is THE best. You are also practically next door to Silicon Valley. If I were you, I would talk to Berkeley's career counselors right when you get there and see if you can get an internship/externship either in-house or with some IP firm. Best of luck. Bring some warm clothing as San Francisco can get quite cool, and be sure to do some travel while in California. It is such a beautiful state and you'll be quite close to Napa/Sonoma Valleys, Yosemite National Park, Sequoia National Park and Lake Tahoe. Cheers.
<blockquote>Hi Guys!!
Jitana, Starlight, tsis and Tristan thanks for all the guidance in helping me reach a decision. I have finally decided to accept the Berkeley offer. Turning down the GW Scholarship was one of the most difficult decisions of my life. But as Starlight puts it, "follow your heart." :) I guess that's what I am doing!!
All the best to all of you and my best wishes are with you!!
Anshul
P.S - Jitana I am sorry I completely missed your reply to my query back when u posted it. It's only now that I have seen it. Thanks a ton for taking the time to write such a detailed and accurate post.</blockquote>
I think you made a fine decision. Berkeley is one of the finest institutions in the world, and its name opens doors. In IP law, it is THE best. You are also practically next door to Silicon Valley. If I were you, I would talk to Berkeley's career counselors right when you get there and see if you can get an internship/externship either in-house or with some IP firm. Best of luck. Bring some warm clothing as San Francisco can get quite cool, and be sure to do some travel while in California. It is such a beautiful state and you'll be quite close to Napa/Sonoma Valleys, Yosemite National Park, Sequoia National Park and Lake Tahoe. Cheers.
Jitana, Starlight, tsis and Tristan thanks for all the guidance in helping me reach a decision. I have finally decided to accept the Berkeley offer. Turning down the GW Scholarship was one of the most difficult decisions of my life. But as Starlight puts it, "follow your heart." :) I guess that's what I am doing!!
All the best to all of you and my best wishes are with you!!
Anshul
P.S - Jitana I am sorry I completely missed your reply to my query back when u posted it. It's only now that I have seen it. Thanks a ton for taking the time to write such a detailed and accurate post.</blockquote>
I think you made a fine decision. Berkeley is one of the finest institutions in the world, and its name opens doors. In IP law, it is THE best. You are also practically next door to Silicon Valley. If I were you, I would talk to Berkeley's career counselors right when you get there and see if you can get an internship/externship either in-house or with some IP firm. Best of luck. Bring some warm clothing as San Francisco can get quite cool, and be sure to do some travel while in California. It is such a beautiful state and you'll be quite close to Napa/Sonoma Valleys, Yosemite National Park, Sequoia National Park and Lake Tahoe. Cheers.
Posted Apr 30, 2013 11:01
0
congrats..you made the right choice.i d do the same in your position..best of luck from now on!!take care
congrats..you made the right choice.i d do the same in your position..best of luck from now on!!take care
Posted May 01, 2013 07:15
0
Hey,
I have enrolled for the LLM in international and comparative law, still awaiting my I20, any other takers in here? Would be great to get in touch and also discuss housing options. I'm a little concerned regarding that.
Hey,
I have enrolled for the LLM in international and comparative law, still awaiting my I20, any other takers in here? Would be great to get in touch and also discuss housing options. I'm a little concerned regarding that.
I have enrolled for the LLM in international and comparative law, still awaiting my I20, any other takers in here? Would be great to get in touch and also discuss housing options. I'm a little concerned regarding that.
Posted May 02, 2013 07:04
0
hi nuppy23! where can we get a housing that is quite little affordable and near the school are there any housing options inside the campus?
hi nuppy23! where can we get a housing that is quite little affordable and near the school are there any housing options inside the campus?
Posted May 04, 2013 17:15
0
Starlight,
Have you heard anything as yet re the scholarship?
~Jitana
Starlight,
Have you heard anything as yet re the scholarship?
~Jitana
Posted May 05, 2013 16:27
0
i have not yet heard anything. i am just asking for housing opportunities as a preparation for our study... do u have any idea Jitana as to the affordable housing available there so i can prepare the budget. thanks
i have not yet heard anything. i am just asking for housing opportunities as a preparation for our study... do u have any idea Jitana as to the affordable housing available there so i can prepare the budget. thanks
Posted May 07, 2013 16:08
0
Starlight,
I am not sure because I live in Nova ...like 15 minutes away.
That area (Alexandria) is pretty expensive ~ a studio apartment costs anything from 1000 us/ month to 1500. Houses are more expensive...
You might want to look at the gw site. They have some housing suggestions. If you cannot find anything in time, you are welcome to stay at my place till you do. I have space.
Jitana
Starlight,
I am not sure because I live in Nova ...like 15 minutes away.
That area (Alexandria) is pretty expensive ~ a studio apartment costs anything from 1000 us/ month to 1500. Houses are more expensive...
You might want to look at the gw site. They have some housing suggestions. If you cannot find anything in time, you are welcome to stay at my place till you do. I have space.
Jitana
I am not sure because I live in Nova ...like 15 minutes away.
That area (Alexandria) is pretty expensive ~ a studio apartment costs anything from 1000 us/ month to 1500. Houses are more expensive...
You might want to look at the gw site. They have some housing suggestions. If you cannot find anything in time, you are welcome to stay at my place till you do. I have space.
Jitana
Posted May 07, 2013 16:09
0
Btw, "affordable housing" and "DC"? Oxymoron. :-)
Btw, "affordable housing" and "DC"? Oxymoron. :-)
Posted May 09, 2013 02:15
0
Hello everybody,
I got accepted into GW LL.M Litigation and Dispute Resolution 2013-2014. I am also waiting on my I-20. I am really excited to meet future collegues. Also regarding the accomodation issue, have any of you found any affordable options?
Hello everybody,
I got accepted into GW LL.M Litigation and Dispute Resolution 2013-2014. I am also waiting on my I-20. I am really excited to meet future collegues. Also regarding the accomodation issue, have any of you found any affordable options?
I got accepted into GW LL.M Litigation and Dispute Resolution 2013-2014. I am also waiting on my I-20. I am really excited to meet future collegues. Also regarding the accomodation issue, have any of you found any affordable options?
Posted May 20, 2013 20:38
0
Hey,
I got my I20 last week. getting my visa done now. When and how does the housing process work? when do we get to choose our classes? should I make a facebook group, so that we can get in touch with our future classmates?
Hey,
I got my I20 last week. getting my visa done now. When and how does the housing process work? when do we get to choose our classes? should I make a facebook group, so that we can get in touch with our future classmates?
I got my I20 last week. getting my visa done now. When and how does the housing process work? when do we get to choose our classes? should I make a facebook group, so that we can get in touch with our future classmates?
Posted May 20, 2013 20:40
0
I believe a Facebook group would be a great idea!
I believe a Facebook group would be a great idea!
Posted May 20, 2013 20:54
0
http://www.facebook.com/groups/555373431181339/
Here's the link to the fb group guys!
http://www.facebook.com/groups/555373431181339/
Here's the link to the fb group guys!
Here's the link to the fb group guys!
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