After a frank and difficult-to-obtain talk with careers officers from 3 Top Twenty universities I have decided to abandon doing an LL.M.

I made my hurried applications in January as deadlines were looming for the better universities (unfortunately, the Top Five's deadlines had already passed by that point) and didn't have time to do the research on them (or the LL.M. in general) that I would have liked.

Since then I have been able to do my Due Diligence and have seen that very few foreigners find work in the US after an LL.M., with many US employers having little knowledge or regard for the $35,000+ postgraduate qualification - the JD is king. Correspondence with LLM students from a New England, a NY and a South Western university have all confirmed that - if you're a foreigner looking for work in the US - the LLM is not going to progress you any further. They have also said that at two of those universities, the careers staff are told to have nothing to do with the LL.M. students and concentrate on the JDers. The law fairs are similarly biased towards the JDs.

My optimism (and possibly unwillingness to accept the negatives) was broken, however, when I spoke to a careers advisor from one of the universities who was frightened that the conversation was being tape recorded. Despite her concerns, and luckily for me, she was a very nice lady who felt duty bound to tell me that universities only see LL.M.s as a revenue generating add-on to their Law Schools. LL.M.s encourage foreigners to pay for the course and accommodation in the hope of finding work in the US when the opportunities aren't really there - the South Western university said that even in a bouyant economy they are lucky to get 5 foreigners in employment after an LL.M.

If you are an American taking the course to supplement or enhance your field of expertise, or a foreigner planning to leave the US after the course, I am sure the LL.M. will be of value. As I am only looking for a way of getting to live in the US, the LL.M. appears to be worthless to me. I am so glad I found out before I handed over any (more) cash.

It looks like a JD is the only option for me now - I love the US so much that I have to move there somehow.

I would not completely agree with you. JD is the King, sure. LLM is not bad at all. As a LLM graduate most probably you ll be able to get an Optional Practical Training for 1 year. However, speaking of long-term employment, the foreign-trained LLMs are not very welcome since their employment requires H1B, and not every employer wants to deal with it. Besides, if you check www.abovethelaw.com, you ll find out about the lawyers and other legal staff laid off. So, I think, these couple of years because of the dire situation with the US economy would not be fruitful in applying for a job in the US as an LLM graduate.

One more "I don't get a job - jeez" threads. I'm glad you found out that the LLM is NOT your option. However, I know some people who actually got offers for at least the next year (within optional training). If everybody would have been that negative for a time that is still 1,5 years away, the country most of us are looking forward to visit in a couple of months wouldn't be the country that it is today.

I agree entirely with Ostriker.

Besides, Durham Red's post smells a little like sour grapes to me. I doubt he would you have come to the same conclusion (and posted his post) if he had been admitted to any of the top 5 universities or even any of the T14 universities ;)

Give Durham Red a break guys. He admits in his post that he submitted his forms too late to be considered for T14. He's not all that wrong though: I definitely don't think most of the T5 or T14 universities see the LLM program as a "cash cow" (as was not-so-elegantly put in another post by another poster) but even within that rather elite band of universities, it's quite clear that a small minority of them still see the LLM program as a money-generator. As for OPT training, sure, there might be people who are able to get it but the reality of it is that OPT training is NOT going to allow you to get a long-term job in the US - so it doesn't solve the conundrum that Durham Red finds himself in. That's not to say Durham Red should not have thought more deeply about his objectives early on, but I suspect even HYS is not going to get for you a permanent job in this market if that's your goal and for that reason, I completely empathise with Durham Red's situation. Some of us managed to find jobs in the US after a top-5 LLM Program but it's probably fair to say that a large number of LLMs from even the top-5 schools don't. Whatever the fairness of such a situation, employers still see the JD and not the LLM as the primary vehicle for long-term employment.

To be honest, I find it quite unfortunate that Durham Red would be so willing to share his experiences (including the conversation he had with the office of career services employee which is fairly revealing) only to be told off by everyone else.

I agree entirely with Ostriker.

Besides, Durham Red's post smells a little like sour grapes to me. I doubt he would you have come to the same conclusion (and posted his post) if he had been admitted to any of the top 5 universities or even any of the T14 universities ;)

Sorry to hear. Hope it all turns out well for you.

That said, you didn't really need to call them, most law schools have been pretty honest about an LLM does and does not. I have yet to see a website marketing the LLM as "the 1 year miracle passport to the American job market".

Yes, chances are close to null compared to JD holders. But I also know my chances of finding a job in the US are a million time higher if I do an LLM in the USA than if I stay in my country.

The cost is steep indeed. But If I'm lucky I'll get a job in the USA, if not I should get a higher paying job in my country than I would had I not attended an LLM. Either way, odds of recouping my investment are decent.
Worst possible scenario, I'll be getting the same jobs/salaries in my country as people who don't have LLMs. I would still have gained some knowledge, and spent a fun year as a student in the US.

Sometimes in life you've got to take risks, especially if you're less than 30. Of all the risks we can take, investing on our own education is one of the smartest.

Red Durham, why not go for a two-year JD? There are a number of uni's in the States that offer a fast-track JD.

Broadly speaking, I agree with your opening sentiments i.e. an LLM is not a passport to a career - and this is not only applicable to the US but also the UK. Given the current economic environment, I wouldn't do an LLM now unless it involved no loans or debt. People are taking LLMs this year thinking they are going to get a job at the end of it, and that's just not going to happen for the vast majority of them.

When it comes to getting a job, it's what you have before the LLM that counts, and not the actual LLM. The only exceptions are when you complete a very specialised LLM and can find a very specialised job position to match your knowledge.

Red Durham, why not go for a two-year JD? There are a number of uni's in the States that offer a fast-track JD.

Broadly speaking, I agree with your opening sentiments i.e. an LLM is not a passport to a career - and this is not only applicable to the US but also the UK. Given the current economic environment, I wouldn't do an LLM now unless I was financially stable.

When it comes to getting a job, it's what you have before the LLM that counts, and not the actual LLM. The only exceptions are when you complete a very specialised LLM and can find a very specialised job position to match your knowledge.

Will any law schools give you credit for you previous law degree(s)? Similar to the 'advance standing' status available in some Canadian law schools, so you do 2 years instead of 3.

I agree with Durham's assertions that its not only difficult but almost impossible to get an opportunity in firms in United States based on one's LLM degree. Its would be entirely different story if one agrees to do those paralegal jobs or research work in some of those boutique firm who pay some odd amounts to you to sustain. As a matter of fact, even they prefer to hire, JD graduates from their local jurisdictions/law schools(Tier does not matter because they feel an obligations toward their local candidates) and don't really care how good of a lawyer you really are, and you have some years of practice in some foreign jurisdiction and a heftly loaded LLM degree. Yes, you may get some opportunity in your native jurisdictions if firms like your resume and have their offices in your countries. But I assume thats not what we're discussing here. I am here and seeing it everyday and was working for one of the top 15 as FLC and been admitted to NY Bar but lost my way in beginning of february. I don't claim to know much about the current circumstances but certainly know good enough to make a point here. See, people on these forums say many names to others, including denoting folks as 'sour grapes' and 'losers', if they don't trying to see and agree with that person's perspective and understand what exactly he/she trying to suggest be it school's ranking, job opportunities, or anything. They too have good reasons because they don't want to disappoint themselves after getting an acceptance letter from some top school and stop dreaming about the opporutinities they may get after graduations. As we all know the LLM program here in the US schools is just a way to give foreign lawyers some experience in American law and how system works but certainly they don't prepare you to be part of their mainstream legal force. And schools get an good chunk of revenue from foreign resources and they suggest this clearly in their admission brochures. Things are really tough and one who don't agree, they'll realise it after spending they share when they'll see the picture first hand. Don't get discouraged by any stretch but facts are facts and the'll not change because you don't want to see and know. Its always better to forsee things if you get a chance to know and talk to some of your colleagues here in United States. Additionally on a different note, things and time change everyday and it may change for good and better but thats beyond our comprehension at this point of time. if you're speculative enough to bet on future prospective thats good too but remember the volatile job market you'll face after your graduation because all defered JDs associates of 2009 will join their respective firms next year along with JDs of 2010, so you can imagine the prospects for LLM graduates.

I am making this statement based on my own experience and love to be proved wrong and certainly be happy for all of you if you get all possible opportunities you' wish get after your confired graduations.

Good Luck to you all

i agree with this.. i can just add that if to take the JD you're still stuck with the visa issue.. now your advantage will be that u get a summer job and then they're impressed with you and they give you the required work permit visa, but if they don't, and it's no assurance, then even with a JD as long as you're a foreign you might still get stuck.. there are definitely risks involved then. Of course a JD will give you the better marketability in a way but it will also cost you a lot more, so it's a balance... in a good market, the LLM is a good bet and there are many LLM's working in firms, and the specificality of the LLM can even play to your advantage (LLM in tax/corporate law and so on) but in a bad market you need to see where the priorities are, but still it can happen if it's important to you.

Give Durham Red a break guys. He admits in his post that he submitted his forms too late to be considered for T14.

He's not all that wrong though: I definitely don't think most of the T5 or T14 universities see the LLM program as a "cash cow" (as was not-so-elegantly put in another post by another poster) but even within that rather elite band of universities, it's quite clear that a small minority of them still see the LLM program as a money-generator. As for OPT training, sure, there might be people who are able to get it but the reality of it is that OPT training is NOT going to allow you to get a long-term job in the US - so it doesn't solve the conundrum that Durham Red finds himself in. That's not to say Durham Red should not have thought more deeply about his objectives early on, but I suspect even HYS is not going to get for you a permanent job in this market if that's your goal and for that reason, I completely empathise with Durham Red's situation. Some of us managed to find jobs in the US after a top-5 LLM Program but it's probably fair to say that a large number of LLMs from even the top-5 schools don't. Whatever the fairness of such a situation, employers still see the JD and not the LLM as the primary vehicle for long-term employment.

To be honest, I find it quite unfortunate that Durham Red would be so willing to share his experiences (including the conversation he had with the office of career services employee which is fairly revealing) only to be told off by everyone else.

Ostriker and Wolla - why the venom?

Anyone investing $50k+, should weigh up both sides of the argument and constantly re-assess them in light of new information (hold up - that sounds a bit like Law, doesn't it?).

Right, let me be clear in my defence:

Your point 1: I only fell in love with America once I'd travelled around the country and as soon as I returned to the UK I decided I had to gain experience in American law to stand a chance of getting employment there (that was January 2009, by which time the Top 5 universities' deadlines had passed). Initial research suggested an LLM was the quickest and cheapest route.

Your point 2: If YOU consider my doing an LLM only to get a work visa the wrong thing to do, then we are now in agreement that the LLM isn't in my best interests. But since the immigration laws are so tight I want to try whatever legal means exist to attempt to relocate. As do many others on this forum.

Your point 3: If you met me, you'd know that sour grapes, bitterness nor devilment are ever motivating forces in anything I do. I appreciate that no one wants to have their beliefs knocked, but investing huge sums of money deserves receipt of whatever facts are available. There are a lot of people on this forum from India, Brazil, Russia, Britain and elsewhere with the same motivation as me. Do you want them to have the same hopes I had, spend money they perhaps can't afford and then be disappointed in a year's time? Of course not.

As I said, I hope those that do take an LLM in order to move to a country they love are successful, I really do. I will continue to play the odds and do whatever I can to increase my chances of success, so I have changed tack, that's all.

Why the hell am I defending myself here? I got some information and passed it on. Youre grown-ups do what you like with it!

It's true that it's near impossible to find a job in the US, but that can't be the aspiration for the LLM.

I personally do it to learn about the US legal system, get to know people, the country, broaden my knowledge on corporate law, ...
After the LLM I will return to my home country to practice there. A US LLM is valued very highly here.

It's true that it's near impossible to find a job in the US, but that can't be the aspiration for the LLM.

I personally do it to learn about the US legal system, get to know people, the country, broaden my knowledge on corporate law, ...
After the LLM I will return to my home country to practice there. A US LLM is valued very highly here.

Hi Durham,

I really like your posting and I will never understand why so many people on this forum are so extremely emotional (not to say aggressive). An LL.M. might probably help to find a job in the US but the chances are indeed extremely limited. In other words, I would never spend about USD 70,000 (minimum costs for an LL.M. in New York) only for this little chance of getting a well paid job in New York afterwards (particularly not with regard to the current economic situation).

But an LL.M. means also getting to know many interesting people, making new friends, having a great experience, learning more about another legal culture, probably improving legal English skills... However, it is always important to bear in mind that an LL.M. from an English/Asian/Australien university is much cheaper and might probably be a good alternative.

But at the end, everybody has to decide on his/her own whether s/he likes to spend some USD 70,000 for studying in the US.

To be honest: I would have never applied for an LL.M. in the States without a scholarship, because after three years of working experience I can just say that it is not that easy to save such a huge amount of money... And starting a career burdened with debts is not funny at all. However, I have to note that in my country education is for free and taking out a loan for education is very unusual. Finally, I really think that the tuition fee is way too high in the States

Durham,

no offense against you, but two points about my posting above:

1.) If its about the lack of jobs, why did you not use the search function? This board is full of these weepy threads (e.g. (i) "Hope for Job in U.S after LL.M?" http://llm-guide.com/board/67249; (ii) "Jobs after LLM" http://llm-guide.com/board/5834; (iii) "LLM-crisis-jobs" http://llm-guide.com/board/66273)

2.) I have found enough horrible news about the job situation in the US. Personally I believe that is time to look forward, to believe in the economic turn or at least to stop repeating how bad things are - because that's not gonna change anything. When you are writing how many people told yout that they or others didn't find a job etc., what's your purpose anyway? I decided to pursue an LLM because of the overall experience in the US, of he faculty, of the brilliant people I'm going to study with, of the great time I'll have over there, and last but not least because of the career prospects in my home country since an LLM in the US is still very well regarded back here. Landing a job in the US has never been my intention, otherwise I'd have chosen to go for a JD right away. However, nobody really knows how the economic situation will be after graduation in May'10, so why painting a black picture?

PS Pls do not misunderstand me - of course you are free to write whatever you want to!

Hi people,
These IDIOTS, ostriker, wolla and others whose claim to fame that their sole intention is to gain some US experience and then return back their home, is all BS. Trust me these guys will be first in line praying employers to do their work visa at any cost. Do you think they're investing to gain experience in US and then go back home...naaah. Listen guys, time of SoP writing is over and you don't have to impress schools anymore and this forum is no US embassy visa interview where you've to say whats politically correct, things like - 'I want to retun back home after finishing my LLM', in order to get F-1visa. And if you don't know they remember you have to show your intent to return back home if asked this question at the time of visa interview. One commented here on forum that, LLMs got jobs even during tech-bubble and its not that hard to find a job. I wish you could see the situations yourself but why care for those who wants to put themselves in hole. Congratulations on your acceptances and future aspirations and dreams. The guy with arguments related to tech-bubble, if he tries to read and know some more then he can find it that this is biggest recession after thirties and during tech bubble economy was not affected big way because core sectors of economic process like banks, automotive and home, etc were tightly intact and were working fine and just the tech companies slowed down. Those days, or as matter of fact in last 30 years, JDs were never on deferments and had a problem getting a job in legal history and corporate and legal firms were flourishing, therefore there was never shortage of work even for LLM grads from foreign countries. This lay offs and deferments in legal areas in directly related to american core industries, which is automotive, home, finance, infrastructure. Remember Bill gates may be the richest man on face of the planet but Microsofts, Yahoos, and Google don't define American economy and social structure as much as these banks, home and automotives,...and this time the industry which makes fabric of american society has slowed down and so do connected professional services, including legal practice.

Hi people,
These IDIOTS, ostriker, wolla and others whose claim to fame that their sole intention is to gain some US experience and then return back their home, is all BS. Trust me these guys will be first in line praying employers to do their work visa at any cost. Do you think they're investing to gain experience in US and then go back home...naaah. Listen guys, time of SoP writing is over and you don't have to impress schools anymore and this forum is no US embassy visa interview where you've to say whats politically correct, things like - 'I want to retun back home after finishing my LLM', in order to get F-1visa. And if you don't know they remember you have to show your intent to return back home if asked this question at the time of visa interview. One commented here on forum that, LLMs got jobs even during tech-bubble and its not that hard to find a job. I wish you could see the situations yourself but why care for those who wants to put themselves in hole. Congratulations on your acceptances and future aspirations and dreams. The guy with arguments related to tech-bubble, if he tries to read and know some more then he can find it that this is biggest recession after thirties and during tech bubble economy was not affected big way because core sectors of economic process like banks, automotive and home, etc were tightly intact and were working fine and just the tech companies slowed down. Those days, or as matter of fact in last 30 years, JDs were never on deferments and had a problem getting a job in legal history and corporate and legal firms were flourishing, therefore there was never shortage of work even for LLM grads from foreign countries. This lay offs and deferments in legal areas in directly related to american core industries, which is automotive, home, finance, infrastructure. Remember Bill gates may be the richest man on face of the planet but Microsofts, Yahoos, and Google don't define American economy and social structure as much as these banks, home and automotives,...and this time the industry which makes fabric of american society has slowed down and so do connected professional services, including legal practice.