I have just recently begun to look into an LLM program and have read many of the school's bios and much of this message board. What I can't really find out is what the requirements are to get into a program. I am in PA, so my top choice (probably only choice) is U Penn. If anyone can help, I'd appreciate it. Here are my "so called" qualifications if that helps w/ any advice.

I graduated from a law school in PA (not UPenn) which was a 2nd tier law school (which has since plummeted to a third tier). I was very involved in school and graduated with a 3.46. (Which was pretty good considering an A at my school was a 3.75). I have been practicing in a firm for three years. In those three years I have taken and passed three different bar exams.

I want to make a total career change and think that an LLM is the best (and quickest) way to get there. I would be applying for a slot for fall 2007, as I understand there is no incoming spring program (everyone starts in the fall... or maybe summer????)

Thanks in advance for all your help!
mp

It might be difficult, you should make a general post about domestic LLM applicants and their luck. A friend of mine went to a tier 2 school (I believe it is tier 2, U. of Florida) and had specs similar to yours and was rejected by all top LLM programs. The feedback he got from a few schools 'off the record' is LLMs are usually aimed at students from outside of the USA - they are often frowned upon as a 'resume pump' for someone that went to a tier 2 or lower school. You will note for example on these boards many people that cannot even write a decent sentence in English getting in to top schools, whereas as very strong domestic students seem to get rejected. Even those that take domestic students no doubt use the typical ' we will take 4 domestic students out of out 100 slots' or something like that, so you are up against some really solid domestic students for a limited number of slots.

To be fair, no doubt the above occurs with other foreign students too - i.e. I bet UK students have a difficult time with top US schools whereas if you are from somewhere unusual, Romania for example, they will prob. take you with much lower stats.

Do a search for domestic on these boards.

Good luck.

I cannot disagree more. First, I think that the foreign LLM students who are accepted to top schools (e.g. Yale, Stanford, Harvard) are the very best of their countries and have outstanding credentials. Second, they do very well and many end up with better grades than the American JDs who were accepted to such top schools. Third, why an American JD would do a general LLM anyway? It is just another (and expensive) year of law school. The only explanation is that he/she graduated from a tier 2/3 school and wants to improve his/her resume. Sorry but this is exactly the applicant the top law schools want to avoid. My suggestion is that you apply to specialized LLMs (Tax NYU, Securities Law Georgetown, Bankruptcy Fordham) or to a LLM program in Europe or Asia.

BTW, I don't think that a B student who graduated from a tier 3 school in Romania would be accepted to Upenn.

Even if you are right that foreign applicants are 'the very best' (would the very best take a year off to go to the USA to learn American law when they could (should?) be 'partner track' in their home countries?) the fact still remains the original poster will have a difficult time getting in to top schools. You are right it appears to be frowned on for 2nd and 3rd tier American JD's looking to do an LLM at most schools, however, the original poster did mention that was the background he is coming from.

Although it may well be a handful of top schools do accept the qualified foreign applicants you mention, most of their admission process from what I understand (if I am wrong please correct me) is focused on what some admission staff call 'diversity buckets'. This is basically the idea that you have for example an LLM class of 100, and you admit a target of perhaps 50 countries (to then brag on marketing literature about the number of students from different countries you admit), in addition to the usual racial and sex profiles that are also built up. I understand from some of my friends here in the UK that this is one reason it is very hard for UK law grads to gain admission to top US schools. Also, as an American who attended a top UK business school I saw this sort of 'diversity bucket' admissions and the impact it had on our school (only about 10% were British - they were by far the most qualified vs. those admitted from limited represented countries - I say this as an American that studied there, so I am not talking out of self interest as a Brit)

I would also add I am not bashing the above admission tactics - this is just how the world works. I was waitlisted for two top US MBAs years ago, but admitted to the top two European MBA's -- no doubt I benefited from the same 'odd stacking' that foreign LLMs get vs. domestic LLM applicants.

I assume we can both agree that a JD from a 2nd or 3rd tier using an LLM as a resume 'bump' is generally facing a difficult task?

Cheers.

I guess you are assuming that "the very best" are all in private practice, which is not the case. But still, "the very best" who are in private practice will take a year off to go to the USA to learn American law b/c a LLM from a top school and some working experience in the US improves the chances of becoming a partner in your home country.

I don't think it is frowned on for 2nd and 3rd tier American JD's looking to do an LLM at most schools. It is frowned on for any American JD. Even a top Yale JD will not be accepted to Stanford, Harvard or Columbia LLM. And quite frankly, the "Yale JD" must be crazy to go back to law school with a Yale law degree. I think it is quite obvious that the general LLM is for foreigners and not for Americans.

One point that you raised, which I think is interesting, is whether UK law grads have a hard time to gain admission to a US LLM. I know many common law students who were accepted by top law schools in the US, so I don't know why the US schools would not accept a UK applicant.

You are right. There is such a thing as 'diversity buckets" but from thousands of applications worldwide, I am sure the top schools can select the very best. They will not accept someone who does not have decent credentials just because this person is from country x.

Cheers,