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Frenchies going to the US this fall?


Posted Mar 20, 2009 10:16

So, any French accepted to HYS?

I'm getting the impression the acceptance rate of French in the 3 best US law schools has been rather low in recent years.

Has anyone got statistics on Yale's and Stanford's previous LLM classes that could prove me wrong?


I know, though indirectly, a french who graduated from SLS in 2007 (LLM).

<blockquote>So, any French accepted to HYS?

I'm getting the impression the acceptance rate of French in the 3 best US law schools has been rather low in recent years.

Has anyone got statistics on Yale's and Stanford's previous LLM classes that could prove me wrong?</blockquote>

I know, though indirectly, a french who graduated from SLS in 2007 (LLM).
quote
koala

Posted Mar 20, 2009 10:17

Hi there,
I'm going to CLS.


He applicant20091...I'll see you at CLS next year! Congratulations to you! What subject do you intend to specialise in?


Hi !

I will study there mainly corporate law coupled with some other courses for the bar (evidence, maybe procedure, etc.).

See you in august!

I graduated in 2008 and I'm still at the EFB.


Hi!

I will also choose some corporate subjects and intend to take the NY Bar exam as well.

See you this summer and good luck with your EFB exam!

<blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>Hi there,
I'm going to CLS.</blockquote>

He applicant20091...I'll see you at CLS next year! Congratulations to you! What subject do you intend to specialise in? </blockquote>

Hi !

I will study there mainly corporate law coupled with some other courses for the bar (evidence, maybe procedure, etc.).

See you in august!

I graduated in 2008 and I'm still at the EFB.</blockquote>

Hi!

I will also choose some corporate subjects and intend to take the NY Bar exam as well.

See you this summer and good luck with your EFB exam!
quote
nicolas_a

Posted Mar 20, 2009 10:37

got into oxford (general), lse (tax), nyu (tax), columbia (general)

still undecided...

currently at efb as well !

got into oxford (general), lse (tax), nyu (tax), columbia (general)

still undecided...

currently at efb as well !
quote
koala

Posted Mar 20, 2009 10:39

got into oxford (general), lse (tax), nyu (tax), columbia (general)

still undecided...

currently at efb as well !


Congratulations! That's a major achievement! Top top schools!

<blockquote>got into oxford (general), lse (tax), nyu (tax), columbia (general)

still undecided...

currently at efb as well !</blockquote>

Congratulations! That's a major achievement! Top top schools!
quote
Hedek

Posted Mar 20, 2009 13:42

Do you have an explanation? Are you suggesting that we are being discriminated against?


No koala, not at all. Quite the opposite actually, if any I think the problem may come from French universities. Let me explain.

French universities produce outstanding "students", not outstanding "individuals". The following is just speculation on admissions criteria but... being an excellent "student" will get you in top 14 US schools, like you and I did. Whereas, for the top 3, we're just "yet another excellent student", and that's probably not enough. They want to be impressed, they're looking for individuals that truly distinguish themselves from other equally brilliant lawyers.

And the problem with French universities is that the typical candidate will only have excellent grades in his favor. Even our "mentions bien and tres bien", while great to have... these distinctions are automatically awarded to anyone who reaches the pre-established GPA threshold. That doesn't contribute to setting someone apart.

One thing I've noticed is that candidates from other countries, often have on top of excellent grades, quite a list of "extra" and often non-academic achievements. Such as editor in their law school review, pro bono and community services organized by their college or their student organization, or specific awards i.e. "outstanding international student" or athletic distinctions, etc.
French universities seldom have initiatives to distinguish their students, in the form of awards or prizes (I did get one but that's remarkably uncommon).
For example, my brother who spent 4 years studying bio-medical engineering in Cleveland, obtained like 1 or 2 awards per year, most of them aren't serious by French standards as they reward his friendliness and dedication to helping other students, but that may be enough to make the difference with another candidate with equal grades.

In France, students don't do much at university, except well studying. The student organizations that do exist are either dedicated to organizing parties or are political offshoots of national parties or unionists.

Motivated students will also have summer internships in law offices and/or courts, and in my case I also worked in a law firm at the same time as my M1 and M2. But yet again, that's something you put in the "work experience" category of a resume. It won't really add "flavor" or a "this applicant really is out of the ordinary" effect on the admission committee.

And take the specific example of Yale. If what they say on their website is true and they only admit applicants interested in becoming law professors, then let's be honest here, any French applicant will have to lie to them. Indeed, graduating from Yale won't help you the slightest to secure a professor chair in France, it might actually be detrimental given how they are selected. (I can elaborate on this if someone reading this post isn't familiar with how law professors are selected in France)

As for Harvard, apparently a graduate from ENA was rejected. ENA is like the French equivalent of Yale in terms of percentage of graduates who become president/prime minister/minister (and only as far as that is concerned, I am in no way implying that ENA is the French equivalent of Yale in general). So again whatever they're looking for, being an outstanding "student" isn't enough.

And for Stanford, because of its focus on science and technology, I can definitely picture an engineer who graduated from Polytechnique or Centrale being accepted there after several years of professional experience. But such candidates are rare as they'd have to interrupt an already successful career, which would explain the low acceptance rate of French at SLS.

<blockquote>Do you have an explanation? Are you suggesting that we are being discriminated against?</blockquote>

No koala, not at all. Quite the opposite actually, if any I think the problem may come from French universities. Let me explain.

French universities produce outstanding "students", not outstanding "individuals". The following is just speculation on admissions criteria but... being an excellent "student" will get you in top 14 US schools, like you and I did. Whereas, for the top 3, we're just "yet another excellent student", and that's probably not enough. They want to be impressed, they're looking for individuals that truly distinguish themselves from other equally brilliant lawyers.

And the problem with French universities is that the typical candidate will only have excellent grades in his favor. Even our "mentions bien and tres bien", while great to have... these distinctions are automatically awarded to anyone who reaches the pre-established GPA threshold. That doesn't contribute to setting someone apart.

One thing I've noticed is that candidates from other countries, often have on top of excellent grades, quite a list of "extra" and often non-academic achievements. Such as editor in their law school review, pro bono and community services organized by their college or their student organization, or specific awards i.e. "outstanding international student" or athletic distinctions, etc.
French universities seldom have initiatives to distinguish their students, in the form of awards or prizes (I did get one but that's remarkably uncommon).
For example, my brother who spent 4 years studying bio-medical engineering in Cleveland, obtained like 1 or 2 awards per year, most of them aren't serious by French standards as they reward his friendliness and dedication to helping other students, but that may be enough to make the difference with another candidate with equal grades.

In France, students don't do much at university, except well studying. The student organizations that do exist are either dedicated to organizing parties or are political offshoots of national parties or unionists.

Motivated students will also have summer internships in law offices and/or courts, and in my case I also worked in a law firm at the same time as my M1 and M2. But yet again, that's something you put in the "work experience" category of a resume. It won't really add "flavor" or a "this applicant really is out of the ordinary" effect on the admission committee.

And take the specific example of Yale. If what they say on their website is true and they only admit applicants interested in becoming law professors, then let's be honest here, any French applicant will have to lie to them. Indeed, graduating from Yale won't help you the slightest to secure a professor chair in France, it might actually be detrimental given how they are selected. (I can elaborate on this if someone reading this post isn't familiar with how law professors are selected in France)

As for Harvard, apparently a graduate from ENA was rejected. ENA is like the French equivalent of Yale in terms of percentage of graduates who become president/prime minister/minister (and only as far as that is concerned, I am in no way implying that ENA is the French equivalent of Yale in general). So again whatever they're looking for, being an outstanding "student" isn't enough.

And for Stanford, because of its focus on science and technology, I can definitely picture an engineer who graduated from Polytechnique or Centrale being accepted there after several years of professional experience. But such candidates are rare as they'd have to interrupt an already successful career, which would explain the low acceptance rate of French at SLS.
quote
koala

Posted Mar 20, 2009 14:02

Hedek

Thank you for your very extensive and interesting view on this matter.

You are right. I agree that the fact that

1. French Universities produce students but not individuals

2. The fact that the French system is so different can be detrimental to French students abroad. Grandes Ecoles are, for example, an unknown phenomenom in most countries and it is also very difficult to explain how this works. In my case I graduated from Sciences Po a few years ago. My marks were not outstanding at the time and it was very difficult to explain that the degree is in itself prestigious in France. It is also difficult to explain that some schools can be more highly rated than some Universities.

All of that to say that a US experience promises to be very enlightening as it will open our minds and broaden the scope of our little French experience...

I follow you 100% on HYS...they indeed require something additional, an X factor that French students are not encouraged to show. Considering the narrow minded approach of most French law firms and the job market, it would probably be detrimental to be seen as original in France... That's a catch 22 situation!

Hedek

Thank you for your very extensive and interesting view on this matter.

You are right. I agree that the fact that

1. French Universities produce students but not individuals

2. The fact that the French system is so different can be detrimental to French students abroad. Grandes Ecoles are, for example, an unknown phenomenom in most countries and it is also very difficult to explain how this works. In my case I graduated from Sciences Po a few years ago. My marks were not outstanding at the time and it was very difficult to explain that the degree is in itself prestigious in France. It is also difficult to explain that some schools can be more highly rated than some Universities.

All of that to say that a US experience promises to be very enlightening as it will open our minds and broaden the scope of our little French experience...

I follow you 100% on HYS...they indeed require something additional, an X factor that French students are not encouraged to show. Considering the narrow minded approach of most French law firms and the job market, it would probably be detrimental to be seen as original in France... That's a catch 22 situation!
quote
Hedek

Posted Mar 20, 2009 16:16

Yeah our Grande Ecole system can be confusing for foreigners. I actually find some vicious pleasure hearing stories about HEC gradutes feeling insulted when foreigners don't show any specific reaction when they tell them where they graduated from, whereas in France, they're considered godlike. (and quite funnily as well, Versailles-based INSEAD, one of the most recognized business schools in the world, is barely known in France).

However, although that statement is true in general, I doubt it applies to HYS admission committees. I'm certain they're well aware of the value and prestige of HEC, ENA, or Science Po Paris. If anything, I suspect these candidates have better chances than French university graduates.

---

Indeed the mentality of French recruiters is often quite scary. To give you an ironic personal experience, I'm fluent in Arabic (and currently trying to learn Hebrew), but I've been purposely hiding that fact when sending my resume to French firms (unless I knew for fact they had dealings with the Middle East). It might lead them into thinking i'm Arab, and that's unfortunately not an advantage among elitist Parisian recruiters.

Yeah our Grande Ecole system can be confusing for foreigners. I actually find some vicious pleasure hearing stories about HEC gradutes feeling insulted when foreigners don't show any specific reaction when they tell them where they graduated from, whereas in France, they're considered godlike. (and quite funnily as well, Versailles-based INSEAD, one of the most recognized business schools in the world, is barely known in France).

However, although that statement is true in general, I doubt it applies to HYS admission committees. I'm certain they're well aware of the value and prestige of HEC, ENA, or Science Po Paris. If anything, I suspect these candidates have better chances than French university graduates.

---

Indeed the mentality of French recruiters is often quite scary. To give you an ironic personal experience, I'm fluent in Arabic (and currently trying to learn Hebrew), but I've been purposely hiding that fact when sending my resume to French firms (unless I knew for fact they had dealings with the Middle East). It might lead them into thinking i'm Arab, and that's unfortunately not an advantage among elitist Parisian recruiters.
quote
koala

Posted Mar 20, 2009 16:18

Yeah our Grande Ecole system can be confusing for foreigners. I actually find some vicious pleasure hearing stories about HEC gradutes feeling insulted when foreigners don't show any specific reaction when they tell them where they graduated from, whereas in France, they're considered godlike. (and quite funnily as well, Versailles-based INSEAD, one of the most recognized business schools in the world, is barely known in France).

However, although that statement is true in general, I doubt it applies to HYS admission committees. I'm certain they're well aware of the value and prestige of HEC, ENA, or Science Po Paris. If anything, I suspect these candidates have better chances than French university graduates.

---

Indeed the mentality of French recruiters is often quite scary. To give you an ironic personal experience, I'm fluent in Arabic (and currently trying to learn Hebrew), but I've been purposely hiding that fact when sending my resume to French firms (unless I knew for fact they had dealings with the Middle East). It might lead them into thinking i'm Arab, and that's unfortunately not an advantage among elitist Parisian recruiters.


You will probably be more valued abroad for sure...where people will recognize your talent!

<blockquote>Yeah our Grande Ecole system can be confusing for foreigners. I actually find some vicious pleasure hearing stories about HEC gradutes feeling insulted when foreigners don't show any specific reaction when they tell them where they graduated from, whereas in France, they're considered godlike. (and quite funnily as well, Versailles-based INSEAD, one of the most recognized business schools in the world, is barely known in France).

However, although that statement is true in general, I doubt it applies to HYS admission committees. I'm certain they're well aware of the value and prestige of HEC, ENA, or Science Po Paris. If anything, I suspect these candidates have better chances than French university graduates.

---

Indeed the mentality of French recruiters is often quite scary. To give you an ironic personal experience, I'm fluent in Arabic (and currently trying to learn Hebrew), but I've been purposely hiding that fact when sending my resume to French firms (unless I knew for fact they had dealings with the Middle East). It might lead them into thinking i'm Arab, and that's unfortunately not an advantage among elitist Parisian recruiters.</blockquote>

You will probably be more valued abroad for sure...where people will recognize your talent!
quote
parapraxis

Posted Mar 20, 2009 18:59

hi there! got into CLS and NYU as well, but waiting for SLS answer since I got their "famous" call earlier this week...

hi there! got into CLS and NYU as well, but waiting for SLS answer since I got their "famous" call earlier this week...
quote
laodeshu

Posted Mar 20, 2009 19:18

wow congrats!! hope it'll work!

wow congrats!! hope it'll work!
quote
koala

Posted Mar 21, 2009 12:10

hi there! got into CLS and NYU as well, but waiting for SLS answer since I got their "famous" call earlier this week...

Super! Congratulations...what would you choose between the three schools and what is your speciality?

<blockquote>hi there! got into CLS and NYU as well, but waiting for SLS answer since I got their "famous" call earlier this week...
</blockquote>
Super! Congratulations...what would you choose between the three schools and what is your speciality?
quote
parapraxis

Posted Mar 21, 2009 22:20

sls for sure--without a doubt!!

sls for sure--without a doubt!!
quote
koala

Posted Mar 22, 2009 14:19

sls for sure--without a doubt!!


Does that mean that you are an IP/IT lawyer? or a corporate lawyer?

<blockquote>sls for sure--without a doubt!!</blockquote>

Does that mean that you are an IP/IT lawyer? or a corporate lawyer?
quote
parapraxis

Posted Mar 23, 2009 15:14

well...admitted to SLS...!!!!!!!!!!!!

well...admitted to SLS...!!!!!!!!!!!!
quote

Posted Mar 23, 2009 15:16

Well parapraxis....Congratulations :)) Where will you go then?

Well parapraxis....Congratulations :)) Where will you go then?
quote
laodeshu

Posted Mar 23, 2009 15:20

well...admitted to SLS...!!!!!!!!!!!!


congratulations!!! that's a heck of an achievement!!

<blockquote>well...admitted to SLS...!!!!!!!!!!!!</blockquote>

congratulations!!! that's a heck of an achievement!!
quote
Santa

Posted Mar 23, 2009 15:21

sls for sure--without a doubt!!

well...admitted to SLS...!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well parapraxis....Congratulations :)) Where will you go then?


Must be SLS ;p

<blockquote>sls for sure--without a doubt!!</blockquote>
<blockquote>well...admitted to SLS...!!!!!!!!!!!!</blockquote>
<blockquote>Well parapraxis....Congratulations :)) Where will you go then?</blockquote>

Must be SLS ;p
quote
Hedek

Posted Mar 23, 2009 19:05

well...admitted to SLS...!!!!!!!!!!!!


Wohoo! I'll sing the Marseillaise for you... or perhaps not: I'm not that chauvinistic, congratulations nevertheless!

Mind sharing some of your credentials?

In other news, I got my rejection letter from HLS this morning :p I feel quite relieved, yet sad for Harvard: I'm not sure they even realize the opportunity they've just missed :p

Just kidding of course :)

<blockquote>well...admitted to SLS...!!!!!!!!!!!!</blockquote>

Wohoo! I'll sing the Marseillaise for you... or perhaps not: I'm not that chauvinistic, congratulations nevertheless!

Mind sharing some of your credentials?

In other news, I got my rejection letter from HLS this morning :p I feel quite relieved, yet sad for Harvard: I'm not sure they even realize the opportunity they've just missed :p

Just kidding of course :)
quote
koala

Posted Mar 24, 2009 11:29

well...admitted to SLS...!!!!!!!!!!!!


I have mixed feelings about this...I am sorry that I won't be seeing you at CLS this summer and at the same time proud to have almost met a French admitted into SLS. Congratulations by the way!!

<blockquote>well...admitted to SLS...!!!!!!!!!!!!</blockquote>

I have mixed feelings about this...I am sorry that I won't be seeing you at CLS this summer and at the same time proud to have almost met a French admitted into SLS. Congratulations by the way!!
quote
laodeshu

Posted Mar 24, 2009 16:09

so, any french admitted to YLS or HLS?

so, any french admitted to YLS or HLS?
quote

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