I am now starting my second semester at a top 4 US law school. Here are my views on the LL.M. Friends from other schools often agree with these views but as often may see things a bit differently. Still I believe this is the perceived wisdom among many current LL.Ms.

Rankings. US News are the rankings and US students employers and faculty follow them closely. No student would chose a school more than 1 or 2 places below the highest ranked school he can get into. Prestige and career opportunities vary significantly according to rankings. Don t fall for better marketing or for the fact that an LL.M. is titled (LL.M. in banking) or not. Go for the highest ranked school. Btw many firms don t care what exactly you study as long as you are in a top 3/5 program.
LL.M. rankings. 1. Harvard, 2 Columbia, 3 NYU/Chicago, 4 Stanford/ Yale. Why? A) Yale may be the N1 school in the US but its a very small school and faculty take time off, go to other schools as visitors etc. If you are there for a year and there are 2 corporations professors and 1 is off you are screwed as an LL.M. because you won t have another year to take them unlike JDs. In Harvard and Columbia you have 5/6 world class professors of securities/corporations etc so always good classes. B) Network. For big law firms (Clearies, Shearman, Sullcrom etc) Harvard and Columbia have a network of LL.M. alumni in them unmatched by any other school. A big difference come employment time.
Is it worth it? For personal and educational reasons NO DOUBT! Its a great year believe me. The teaching and resources at the good schools are unmatched ANYWHERE in the world. Even at Penn, UVA etc those are great schools. As far as immediate pay-off. Ie an associate position at Skadden et al paying 150 K in NY/London after graduation if you dont go to Harvard/Columbia/Yale the chances are slim so think about it. If you are planning on an academic career and have a grant an LL.M. at any top 15 school is an amazing experience.
Jobs at US firms. Even in Columbia/ Harvard only a third of students get placed in US firms after graduation in good years. Of course many students don t want to pursue that but note that many who wish to don t manage to get offers. After the 1st group of schools I mention, US firm placement becomes very low. Cleary, the biggest LL.M. recruiter will take 20/25 students in a good year. And in the group of schools I have mentioned they already have 1000 cvs to look at. Nationalities matter. Common laws, germans and French have a job good market. Brazil, Austria, Belgians, Dutch and Spanish have opportunities and after that it depends on personal conditions but your nationality will not help you.
Grades. They are very important for good firms. The lesser the school the better the grades. For nationalities other than those I mentioned, prepare to work hard.
Admissions: Yale and Harvard will take the top of the top only. Ie the best student in the whole of France in his year and no one below top 5%-10%. Columbia is top 10%. NYU and Chicago a bit below that up to top 20%. Depends on nationalities too. Lots of Germans and French apply so its harder for them. Good experience and good recommendations however will help you if you fall SLIGHTLY below this level. Say 2/3 years at Freshfields or equivalent firms.
Once in school: Go for the big names. There are better and worse professors at even the best schools (and dumb students!) You won t go wrong with the stars even if they sometimes have difficult personalities. Associate professors and Adjuncts can be hit and miss.
Columbia or NYU. Congrats if you can make the choice. Go for Columbia. NYU is a nicer place but so what. The Columbia program is smaller (150 vs 400), overall better professors, better support, better career opportunities etc etc.

Good luck and enjoy next year, I had great expectations and its better than I ever thought it would be!!

Thanks for your post "bloggs"! I think however it is a little bit biased towards Columbia...I guess you study there. If you don't mind I will jump in and add my views.

Rankings. I agree. Two columns in the US News ranking are specially important: "peer assessment" and "judge/lawyers assessment". For instance, UC Berkeley ranks 11th but has a very good reputation (for sure top 10) in the US.

LL.M. rankings. I don't agree with your ranking...No way you go to NYU, Chicago or Columbia if you are accepted in Yale or Stanford. I know LLMs from Yale and Stanford (many of them admitted to Harvard and Columbia) and they would not go to any other school: small classes, great networking, TA and RA apportunities, close contact with professors, etc. A big LLM class (300 people) does not mean great networking...in the end, you become friends with a limited number of people. Actually, I think that a small LLM program with 1 or 2 people from each country is much better for networking than Columbia/NYU where you will study with 10/15 people from your home country. Moreover, in a small program you become friends with all LLMs and many professors and JDs, (I am sure this is not the case at Columbia/Harvard). Moreover, I am sure Cleary, Shearman, Sullcrom, Simpson do not care about network of LL.M. alumni. They are much more concerned in developing a good relationship with big law firms around the world.

Jobs at US firms: "if you dont go to Harvard/Columbia/Yale the chances are slim so think about it." How can you make such a statement? Do you have a list of LLMs working in US law firms? Please share with us. To begin with, 100% of the 2005 Stanford Corporate LLM received job offers. I cannot believe that if you go to Chicago / NYU / Michigan / Penn / Cornell, then your chances "are slim". To get a job in a US law firm after the LLM is not about the school (please check if all Harvard LLMs get offers) but waht can you bring to the table.

Grades. "They are very important for good firms." Are you talking about LLM grades? If yes, I don't agree. The job fairs are in January and you have only 3/4 grades to show. Sometimes, you don't even have the grades during the job fairs.

Admissions: "Yale and Harvard will take the top of the top only." I agree and I would include Stanford, I think it is harder to get in than Harvard.

Once in school: "Go for the big names." Agree 100%.

LL.M. rankings. I don't agree with your ranking...No way you go to NYU, Chicago or Columbia if you are accepted in Yale or Stanford.

I don't know...do you think the JDs that graduate from Yale do not have a strong securities/corporations background? I think it is not by chance they usually get the best positions at US law firms with strong securities/corporate practice.

There is a lot of value of going to a class with 15/20 students and having professors of the caliber of Guido Calabresi (Yale), Roberta Romano (Yale), Joe Grundfest (Stanford), etc. I am not saying that Columbia does not have a great faculty (John Coffee, etc) but "for the same price" of Yale or Stanford you are in a class of 80 and you are 1 of 300 LLMs. Also, there is alimited number of courses that you can take each semester and you can always take courses at the Business School (which I strongly recommend if you are a transactional lawyer) and Stanford/Harvard has a clear advantage over Columbia.

I do agree however that Yale does not want LLMs that are more "business oriented". So, if you want to practice law you may think twice if it is worth to apply to Yale.

You cannot go wrong: Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Columbia, NYU, Chicago. There are a lot of other factors involved: do you want to live in New York, Boston or California? Do you want to go to a more exclusive LLM (Yale, Stanford) or to a LLM with 200/300 people? Who are your favorite professors? The only point that I made is that if you are admitted to Yale/Stanford, you should really consider accepting these offers. I know it is hard b/c Columbia/NYU and Chicago usually send their offers in January/February and Stanford/Yale/Harvard wait until March/April.

Good luck to all!

Hi paul

My point on networking is not the students. Networking is probably an overblown concept anyway.
The network I mean is that if you plan to be a transactional lawyer its very useful if the law firms you are interested in have recent Ll.M s from your same school and partners who have fond memories of the old days at X school and will be simpathetic to your cause. Off course a Yale or Stanford degree may impress people so much that you don t need friendly alumni reading your cv but I think I am generally correct from what I see.
I stand by the yale and stanford problem I pointed out before knowing past students who went there and found that course offerings could be very limited if one of the professors was visiting another school or taking time off. Btw Romano recently wrote a paper on this and how its an issue for yale and other similar schools. So anyone planning to go to go yo Yale or Stanford or other small schools better be sure that the courses he plans on taking (and he won t be able because by the time they make a decision courses for aut 06 and Spring 07 will not have been decided yet) will be offered next year or not have strong preferences as regards course selection which is cool too.

regards

I agree with you. It can be frustrating to go to Yale or Stanford and to find out that professor x is taking a sabbatical or visiting another school. Nonetheless, they are both great school. They -- togetehr with Harvard -- have such a reputation in the US that it is hard to say no...

Very nice and informative discussion.

Hypothetical question: Where would you go to, ceteris paribus, Stanford vs. Harvard, if you were accepted to both and wish to practice IP law in a large U.S. firm for 1 year after the LLM is over, before going back home?

That is a damn good question...and what a great dilemma to have. I am not an IP lawyer so I may not be the best person to help you but you should consider the following:

Stanford: Lessig, Lemley, Goldstein, Silicon Valley, interesting courses (business of IP for example), small classes, California law firms (Fenwick has an internship program just for Stanford LLMs), sun...

Harvard: Berkman center, brand (specially outside the US), proximity to NYC, networking (more students), US Ranking, more established program, Boston law firms, snow...

I know people who were accepted to both and decided to go to Harvard and I know people who decided to go to Stanford. If you have to decide b/w these two, just follow your intuition.

Look at the CVs of lawyers in the firms you are interested in. I m sure you ll find plnty of both so your choice is probably not on academic or professional grounds but weather, distance to home, friends etc. Both schools are in the "wow" league here so..

Thank you, Paul!
I will take your point into consideration.
My respect to all participants of this usefull discussion.

By the way, yes I am an experienced transactional lawyer. At the same time I have my own special course on Securities Regulation at top 3 Russian law schools on a part-time basis.
I would say that this course is also more practical, rather then cleary academic.

I applied to Harvard, Columbia, Yale and NYU. And my preferences follow the same order .

If you don't mind I will contact you through this forum for a piece of advice, if both Yale and Columbia will give me a chance.

Hi,
I have a question regarding your ranking suggestion. How important is it to look at the specific LLM you want to do vs the overall ranking?
For example: Georgetown is "only" ranked 14 overall but at third place when it comes to international law.
In such a case, would you suggest to chose Georgetown over another school, which might be ranked higher overall but lower in a specific area of law?

Cheers

I guess there is no clear answer to your question. If you are really interested in just one specific area you may consider going to a specific LLM. However, some specific LLMs have more reputation than others. I guess the tax LLM at NYU and the Securities LLM at Georgetown are good examples of that. How important is for you the reputation (US and abroad) of the school? Are you willing to "sacrifice" reputation to go to a specific LLM?

Paul, I guess this is one of the biggest dilemmas of the would-be LLMs... For instance, I´m pretty specialized in International Tax, and in this specific field NYU and Georgetown have a sound reputation. In particular, NYU provides for a International Tax LLM that accepts only 20 students per year. In other words, it somehow solves one of the NYU LLM problems: the lack of exclusivity... In any case, and despite my will to study at NYU, I should say that I still don´t know how I´ll react if I´m accepted at Columbia or Harvard (I didn´t apply for other schools), because the power of these brands around the world is certainly much more poweful than NYU´s... Anyway, thanks for the tips and for the good advice...

Dear US

About Georgetown..

If you want to work in a law firm go to the highest ranked school you can get into especially if its a top 5/top 10 school.
if your interest is mainly personal, academic or in public service or you are considering schools outside the top 5/10 maybe overall school rankings are not so important and department rankings are what you want to look at.
My view is that the overall school ranking is as close as you can get to a wide consensus ranking on which your academic experience will be evaluated by employers, academics etc.
BTW NYU tax is probably the exception to my earlier statement that its better to do a general ll.m. at a very highly ranked school than a specialized ll.m at a lower ranked school.
good luck!

I agree with Blogggs. It might be unfair and you may disagree with the criteria but the US ranking is a consensus among employers and academics in the US. I think it is hard to decline an offer from a top 3 (Yale, Harvard and Stanford) or top 5 school and go to a top 15 school just b/c of a specific program. If you are accepted to two schools that are ranked close to each other than you may choose the one that offers more interesting courses in your area. My last comment: the tax LLM at NYU should be the first option of any international tax lawyer.

tks for your view on this matter. It is certainly helpful to know that when it comes to tax, NYU should be regarded as "the" top school.

I don't fully agree with your previous statements in that you're prompted to study at a top 15 Law School if you intend to work for some time in the US, though i have to admit that that may have an indisputable bearing on getting through. I assert so because a freind of my mine from the University out of which i got my LL.B., graduated from American University in Washington DC, which is not even within the top 40 law schools, and he is presently working for a relevant US Law Firm located in the Nation's Capital and engaged in International trade issues. He told me that a decisive factor in earning a job post, besides your earnest willingness to strive for that end, is the location where you're taking classes so that, for example, if you're in Washington DC the opportunities are very far from slim as here you will come across more non-profit organizations, NGOs and posh law firms than in any other city in the US.

Roberto: I concur with blogggs...we all know people who graduated from less ranked schools and got great jobs in the US.

The question is: have your friend preferred American University over a top 5/10 school? Why? I am not saying that it is a clear-cut decision and that you should always go for the best ranked school. There are other factors to be considered (I even mentioned the weather...) but when the difference in the ranking is big, it is hard to (and I think you should not) decline the offer from the best ranked school.

Paul, if I may ask you a question, are you studying at Stanford? You mentioned that corporate guys from last year all got jobs (where?), how about law, science and tech folks?
Thank you.

Catherine: no, I am not. I know a couple of 2005 LLMs (CGP and LST) though. This is what I know: Stanford only accepted 8 students for the corporate program in 2004 (2005 class). From what I heard, 3 went to NY law firms (Sullivan, Gibson, Cleary), 4 stayed in California (law firms and VC firms) and 1 went back home but also received an offer. I don't know about LST but I reckon they got offers too. Stanford gives preference to more experienced lawyers so I don't know if the students got offers because of the Stanford name or because they were so qualified they would get an offer anyway. I think it is a combination of both.
Maybe Blogggs can share with us his experience but my guess is that the "elite" students of Harvard, Columbia, Chicago also get offers.