Columbia vs Chicago


Inactive User

Columbia: Response to TFH 2 - Everyone on the Spring waitlist for Corporations who truly wanted to get in got in. I was 50th on the waitlist and by the end of the add/drop period there were a few spots left open. They used to distribute the classes equally between the semesters but found that most JDs take the course at the beginning of the 2L year.

Columbia: Response to TFH 2 - Everyone on the Spring waitlist for Corporations who truly wanted to get in got in. I was 50th on the waitlist and by the end of the add/drop period there were a few spots left open. They used to distribute the classes equally between the semesters but found that most JDs take the course at the beginning of the 2L year.
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LLM-MEX

Certainly. It is May 15.

Regards.

Certainly. It is May 15.

Regards.
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AJ

Hi TFH,

I have to appreciate your post on caveats. It certainly is a first on llm-guide.com and I don't think most people wld know all that, especially, about the Negotiations workshop. Any such advice/caveats for the following courses: Transnational Litigation and Arbitration, International Trade Law, International Commercial Arbitration, Trademarks, Copyrights, Trademarks Litigation, Commercial Transactions, Anti Trust and Trade Regulation, Foreign Investments. I know the list is long but hopefully your response would give useful insight to a lot of us.

Another question, is there a upper limit to the number of credits that can be taken up? I see from Columbia's web site that generally students take 11 -14 per Semester. But, is it too uncommon for students to take more?

Cheers,
AJ.

Hi TFH,

I have to appreciate your post on caveats. It certainly is a first on llm-guide.com and I don't think most people wld know all that, especially, about the Negotiations workshop. Any such advice/caveats for the following courses: Transnational Litigation and Arbitration, International Trade Law, International Commercial Arbitration, Trademarks, Copyrights, Trademarks Litigation, Commercial Transactions, Anti Trust and Trade Regulation, Foreign Investments. I know the list is long but hopefully your response would give useful insight to a lot of us.

Another question, is there a upper limit to the number of credits that can be taken up? I see from Columbia's web site that generally students take 11 -14 per Semester. But, is it too uncommon for students to take more?

Cheers,
AJ.

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Inactive User

Copyrights and Antitrust would likely be the toughest to get into. WTO law had a waitlist, but after a week everyone on the waitlist got in. Trans Lit and Arbitration would not be a problem. You can take up to 16 credits - and more if you get permission.

Copyrights and Antitrust would likely be the toughest to get into. WTO law had a waitlist, but after a week everyone on the waitlist got in. Trans Lit and Arbitration would not be a problem. You can take up to 16 credits - and more if you get permission.
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AJ

Hi ColumbiaJoe,

Thanks for your comments. Can you tell me if there is ever a possibility that a student cannot take all his desired classes, not because of waitlist etc., but perhaps because classes might clash i.e. they may be conducted on the same time. Or else, suppose a student is interested in taking up 5 -6 courses etc. in his year at Columbia, is there a possibility that all these 6 courses might be conducted in one semester itself making it impossible for him to pursue all of them. Are the courses repeated in the next semester?

Thanks.

Cheers,
AJ.

Hi ColumbiaJoe,

Thanks for your comments. Can you tell me if there is ever a possibility that a student cannot take all his desired classes, not because of waitlist etc., but perhaps because classes might clash i.e. they may be conducted on the same time. Or else, suppose a student is interested in taking up 5 -6 courses etc. in his year at Columbia, is there a possibility that all these 6 courses might be conducted in one semester itself making it impossible for him to pursue all of them. Are the courses repeated in the next semester?

Thanks.

Cheers,
AJ.
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TFH

Hey AJ,

sorry for the late answer. I'm in the midst of my finals, and "ColumbiaJoe" probably too.

I'd suggest that you go to our curriculum guide which is posted on the website. You see web-posted not only the courses offered during the whole academic year (fall 2006 and spring 2007) but also the times at which they are run. So you can already investigate into whether there are overlaps or not.

However, I can tell you that you have more information than is useful at the moment. This is so because you probably will take in spring 2007 courses that are much different from your plans right now. There are several reasons for this:

1. You might discover new fields of interest. I discovered for instance human rights law while coming originally from the field of business law.

2. If your job search has been successful as of January 2007 you will decide to take in spring 2007 all the courses that you always wanted to take, far from what employers expect you to do.

3. If your job search has not been successful so far it might of course be worth an idea to tailor the curriculum a little bit so as to make your CV more attractive.

4. Your spring 2007 choice will depend on how well you will do in fall 2006. If you feel after the fall 2006 term that you belong to the best in the class and that studies are easy for you than you probably will not care so much to enter into the most difficult classes like Securities & Capital Markets. If you feel that you have problems to follow the pace then this might be part of your considerations for spring 2007 too.

5. Do not take more than 15 credits. I believe that the optimum is 13-14 credits in fall and 11-12 credits in spring. It is true that the administration will normally allow you to have more credits. However, I can tell you that even the toughest amongst us would not manage to accomplish a workload of more than 15 credits and still to have fun. Like practically all the other schools CLS will keep you constantly busy (even at a level below 15 credits) and you should not compromise on the fun factor ...

Btw, I do believe that my advice does not apply exclusively to LL.M. studies at CLS but to LL.M. studies at any other place too. Except for the correct number of credits of course because I do not know whether all the schools have the same system of credits.

I hope this helps further ...

TFH

Hey AJ,

sorry for the late answer. I'm in the midst of my finals, and "ColumbiaJoe" probably too.

I'd suggest that you go to our curriculum guide which is posted on the website. You see web-posted not only the courses offered during the whole academic year (fall 2006 and spring 2007) but also the times at which they are run. So you can already investigate into whether there are overlaps or not.

However, I can tell you that you have more information than is useful at the moment. This is so because you probably will take in spring 2007 courses that are much different from your plans right now. There are several reasons for this:

1. You might discover new fields of interest. I discovered for instance human rights law while coming originally from the field of business law.

2. If your job search has been successful as of January 2007 you will decide to take in spring 2007 all the courses that you always wanted to take, far from what employers expect you to do.

3. If your job search has not been successful so far it might of course be worth an idea to tailor the curriculum a little bit so as to make your CV more attractive.

4. Your spring 2007 choice will depend on how well you will do in fall 2006. If you feel after the fall 2006 term that you belong to the best in the class and that studies are easy for you than you probably will not care so much to enter into the most difficult classes like Securities & Capital Markets. If you feel that you have problems to follow the pace then this might be part of your considerations for spring 2007 too.

5. Do not take more than 15 credits. I believe that the optimum is 13-14 credits in fall and 11-12 credits in spring. It is true that the administration will normally allow you to have more credits. However, I can tell you that even the toughest amongst us would not manage to accomplish a workload of more than 15 credits and still to have fun. Like practically all the other schools CLS will keep you constantly busy (even at a level below 15 credits) and you should not compromise on the fun factor ...

Btw, I do believe that my advice does not apply exclusively to LL.M. studies at CLS but to LL.M. studies at any other place too. Except for the correct number of credits of course because I do not know whether all the schools have the same system of credits.

I hope this helps further ...

TFH
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AJ

Hi TFH,

Thanks for your advice and all the very best for your finals.

Cheers!
AJ

Hi TFH,

Thanks for your advice and all the very best for your finals.

Cheers!
AJ
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Hi there:

Too bad I missed the start of that interesting debate! Very good arguments were made for CLS, and I could make some for Chicago.

These 2 schools are very different, but not as much as, say, Chicago and NYU, or Harvard and Yale. (More on this if anyone's interested...!)

Among the best arguments made for CLS, I would say:

-Prestige with NY law firms (location, location, location: hugely important!! That's why Fordham IS a good choice for those who really want to land a job in NY after their LLM -- you're better off attending Fordham than a slightly better ranked school in Middle America!)

-NYC = simply more exciting than Chicago. (I've lived in both but it's always a personal opinion.)

- Tons of different students from tons of different nations.

These are strong, I must say, very strong arguments.

I don't agree, however, about the "pure law school" arguments in favor of CLS.

CLS has coffee, a top notch corp & securities law professor. But he's the most boring character and by no means a "professor" in a real, professoral, Socratic way.
CLS has a lot of great professors but if that's what you're REALLY looking for you should aim at Chicago. Posner is one of MANY legal geniuses: Sunstein, Epstein, Baird, Stone, Landes, Picker, Strauss, Currie, (a/k/a God...), are simply in a class of their own -- the greatest. Even Yale does not have such an amazing concentration of great minds. This is why you go Chicago for. You end up in classes of 25 people discussing with those big names and you just start thinking much, much faster than before.

If i can venture some blunt advice: avoid M&A, Securities, Corporations, Investment Funds ...and any other virtually useless courses. We LLMs LOVE those courses for no reasons, since we don't learn anything in these classes compared to what we all learn in a firm in 2 months, since these are very "text books-based" courses, which we civil law students know isn't very exciting, and since most of us already have more than enough technical knowledge from home on corporate stuff, so when we do an LLM what we're really looking for (or should be looking for) is classroom experience and stimulation.

But I must confess: the safer bet to get an Associate position with a top-50 firm in NYC, IS Columbia. If you want your LLM to be a mostly utilitarian experience, if you want to enjoy NY, be happy and not work much (except in the very first weeks): go to CLS! Nothing wrong with that :) Chicago does have downsides: average law school area, workaholic students and professors, horrible February weather But if you want a truly mind-blowing intellectual experience, where people dont care that much about law firms "prestige" rankings and all that crap, and where you get to speak one-on-one, have dinner and often even assist Nobel-prize level Professors, and if that's what you came for, go for it.. Only Yale can equal Chicago's intellectual stimulation. Sounds like a lot of hot air and very much like wannabe-intellectual student's BS ?? Maybe. But for one thing you'll never feel as intelligent as you will at Chicago law Even if it's an illusion, it feels good :) Also, wherever and whenever you meet Chicago grads in your life, you always end up talking passionately about topics that nobody cares about (Should we privatize social security? Are copyrights good?? Should we have class-actions in Europe??? Should we harmonize tax laws???? Supress inheritance taxes?????), and that is just amazing. But if you don't care about any of that (and if all you care about is whether Cleary is better than Skadden, hehehehehe), go to Columbia, and long live to you all of you, eager, dull and glorified junior corporate lawyers

I now rest my case!

PS: take it easy CLS people :))) There aren't many Chicago representatives around here so I have to shout and distort the truth -- plus it's fun.

Hi there:

Too bad I missed the start of that interesting debate! Very good arguments were made for CLS, and I could make some for Chicago.

These 2 schools are very different, but not as much as, say, Chicago and NYU, or Harvard and Yale. (More on this if anyone's interested...!)

Among the best arguments made for CLS, I would say:

-Prestige with NY law firms (location, location, location: hugely important!! That's why Fordham IS a good choice for those who really want to land a job in NY after their LLM -- you're better off attending Fordham than a slightly better ranked school in Middle America!)

-NYC = simply more exciting than Chicago. (I've lived in both but it's always a personal opinion.)

- Tons of different students from tons of different nations.

These are strong, I must say, very strong arguments.

I don't agree, however, about the "pure law school" arguments in favor of CLS.

CLS has coffee, a top notch corp & securities law professor. But he's the most boring character and by no means a "professor" in a real, professoral, Socratic way.
CLS has a lot of great professors but if that's what you're REALLY looking for you should aim at Chicago. Posner is one of MANY legal geniuses: Sunstein, Epstein, Baird, Stone, Landes, Picker, Strauss, Currie, (a/k/a God...), are simply in a class of their own -- the greatest. Even Yale does not have such an amazing concentration of great minds. This is why you go Chicago for. You end up in classes of 25 people discussing with those big names and you just start thinking much, much faster than before.

If i can venture some blunt advice: avoid M&A, Securities, Corporations, Investment Funds ...and any other virtually useless courses. We LLMs LOVE those courses for no reasons, since we don't learn anything in these classes compared to what we all learn in a firm in 2 months, since these are very "text books-based" courses, which we civil law students know isn't very exciting, and since most of us already have more than enough technical knowledge from home on corporate stuff, so when we do an LLM what we're really looking for (or should be looking for) is classroom experience and stimulation.

But I must confess: the safer bet to get an Associate position with a top-50 firm in NYC, IS Columbia. If you want your LLM to be a mostly utilitarian experience, if you want to enjoy NY, be happy and not work much (except in the very first weeks): go to CLS! Nothing wrong with that :) Chicago does have downsides: average law school area, workaholic students and professors, horrible February weather… But if you want a truly mind-blowing intellectual experience, where people dont care that much about law firms "prestige" rankings and all that crap, and where you get to speak one-on-one, have dinner and often even assist Nobel-prize level Professors, and if that's what you came for, go for it….. Only Yale can equal Chicago's intellectual stimulation. Sounds like a lot of hot air and very much like wannabe-intellectual student's BS ?? Maybe. But for one thing you'll never feel as intelligent as you will at Chicago law… Even if it's an illusion, it feels good :) Also, wherever and whenever you meet Chicago grads in your life, you always end up talking passionately about topics that nobody cares about (Should we privatize social security? Are copyrights good?? Should we have class-actions in Europe??? Should we harmonize tax laws???? Supress inheritance taxes?????), and that is just amazing. But if you don't care about any of that (and if all you care about is whether Cleary is better than Skadden, hehehehehe), go to Columbia, and long live to you all of you, eager, dull and glorified junior corporate lawyers…

I now rest my case!

PS: take it easy CLS people :))) There aren't many Chicago representatives around here so I have to shout and distort the truth -- plus it's fun.
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J.R.

Hmm, I'm looking forward to this "mindblowing" experience in Chicago next year! :-)

Hmm, I'm looking forward to this "mindblowing" experience in Chicago next year! :-)
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Hey J.R., don't hesitate to drop me a note anytime you need information about the LL.M.

You're facing a tough year (including weather-wise!) but a great one...!

Cheers;

Antoine

Hey J.R., don't hesitate to drop me a note anytime you need information about the LL.M.

You're facing a tough year (including weather-wise!) but a great one...!

Cheers;

Antoine
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