Hi everyone! Let me pipe in another student of the LLM class of 2016 at UofC, clinging to our labels. I disagree that class size is something that does not have an impact. It changes everything! We have become great friends, with lawyers from all over the world, which makes the experience so much more intense. I dont believe that is possible in many of the larger programs. This has nothing to do with a desire to be exclusive, but with a distinct character of education at the school. The small class size as well as the small size of the law school overall allows for a lot more participation by every student. We discuss constantly and openly in class and among our friends. The same goes for communication with the faculty: small size means an entirely different level of engagement between faculty and students.
Speaking of which the two judges you named just happened to be two of the most influential legal scholars, and their scholarship lives in every single class. It is not simply a label the school decorates itself with. It IS the law school. The faculty are invested in their respective subject and in conveying it in the classroom as well as outside of class, in a way I have never experienced before.
Obviously, everyone has to make their own decision. This applies to the location (Chicago trumps NYC in every regard, and I am saying this in February!), as well as to what you are looking for in your LL.M. All of us here deliberately chose UofC over other schools, and I can safely assume we would do it all over again!

I dont believe that is possible in many of the larger programs. This has nothing to do with a desire to be exclusive, but with a distinct character of education at the school. The small class size as well as the small size of the law school overall allows for a lot more participation by every student. We discuss constantly and openly in class and among our friends. The same goes for communication with the faculty: small size means an entirely different level of engagement between faculty and students.

the two judges you named just happened to be two of the most influential legal scholars, and their scholarship lives in every single class. It is not simply a label the school decorates itself with. It IS the law school.

The faculty are invested in their respective subject and in conveying it in the classroom as well as outside of class, in a way I have never experienced before. Obviously, everyone has to make their own decision.

This applies to the location (Chicago trumps NYC in every regard, and I am saying this in February!)

All of us here deliberately chose UofC over other schools

One thing I know for sure, and which has not really been mentioned at all in this thread, is that the calibre of a school's student body is just as important as other factors (e.g. faculty, "prestige").

On that basis, I would never in a million years go to Columbia if imnc is in any way representative of the sort of people who go there. Not only does (s)he sound like, to be blunt, an ass; but his/her arguments are riddled with sweeping generalisations, dressing up anecdotes as hard evidence, and presenting the use of statistics (s)he has obviously made up (e.g. "90% of those with confirmed offers from Chicago will go elsewhere"). If Columbia, one of the highest ranked universities in the US, accepts that sort of garbage then I think I should probably reconsider whether an LLM in America is worth the hype...

I don't want to argue whether Chicago is a better choice over Columbia or other higher or lower ranked schools, since I believe everyone will be happy with their choices after careful consideration of which school will be the best for them. Also, I don't feel comfortable bashing other schools since I'm only attending Chicago's program and clearly won't have first hand information of other schools. And I certainly don't want to make up or guess some stats that has no basis.

But I do want to share some unique experiences here(well at least I didn't have it in my first law school, I don't know if other American Law Schools have it or not, again, I don't want to act like I've attended every school and provide some false info.)

1. The interaction with faculties-- We can easily have lunch or coffee with professors, and the law school pays for it! And also, almost all professors have open-door policy, that means you can go to them whenever you want.

2. Interaction with classmates-- Well, I believe everyone can make a lot of friends in each school. But I really feel that 70 people is a great number that is big enough for us to have friends from so many different countries but small enough to prevent some from only hanging out with people from their own countries. Its hard to stress enough how intimate our whole class are.
Also, law school provides sufficient funds for us to hold National Dinner for the whole class.

3. Lunch talks This is awesome. Free lunch literally every school day!! And of course, along with great talks from lawyers, judges, professors, non-profitsetc from all kinds of different fields!

4. The sense of community LLMs are really deemed as a part of the law school community with the JDs. Most LLMs have good JD friends and actively participate in law school organizations and events like Law School Musicaletc. And the law school also divide us into groups with JDs and provide us $1000/year in order to facilitate our interactions with local students.

5. The City Chicago is really an amazing city. Though I also love NY and Cali, I would have made the same choice again.

I can go on and on the whole day if I have the time haha. But I can really tell you, Chicago will be a great choice!

imnc mentioned most people who got admitted to UC will rather choose Columbia, NYU, Georgetown, Michigan on the east coast or UCB on the west coast . I can tell you that almost everyone in our class has offers from those schools and still came here. That doesnt mean I think those schools are worse than UC, but rather UC are a lot of peoples top choice. And I can tell you the yielding rate is much higher than your guess, though I can't share the stats here.

imnc really amazed me by how desperate he/she wants to bash on UC that he/she said we have poor faculty in con law and corporate law. Geoffrey Stone, David Strauss just to name a few. UC also divides con law into 5 courses, so students can have in depth understanding for each part of the constitutional law(Governments structure, freedom of speechetc). And as to corporate and other business law, UC has Baird, Fischel, Hendersonetc.

Lastly, I just want to remind people on this forum that everyone can say anything on the internet and most people only attend one LLM program. It seems very weird to me how a person that never attends or even visits Chicago can have so many negative things to say about it.

P.S. Everyone I know that is in a LLM program is having a great time, no matter which school theyre in. Just pick the one that is right for you and base your decision on reliable information. UC has created a Facebook group for admitted students, asking questions there can be answered by people who actually are admitted and in UChicagos program:) Good luck to everyone.

Cheers,
David
UChicago LLM Class of 2016

but his/her arguments are riddled with sweeping generalisations, dressing up anecdotes as hard evidence, and presenting the use of statistics (s)he has obviously made up (e.g. "90% of those with confirmed offers from Chicago will go elsewhere").

David,

You sound very naive. Do you think Chicago is unique in offering free lunches and free food to its law students. Actually, I would feel insulted if that is the basis on which someone is expected to make a decision. Anyway, here are some things that may surprise you:

1. All the top law schools right down to GWU and maybe more pay for students to lunch with faculty. It's all factored into the tuition cost. Faculty at all these schools are accessible to students and available to chat freely. I have never cone across a law school where this was not the case.

2. All law schools give money to student clubs to hold events where food and drinks are served for many 'National Dinners' and other dinners and lunches as well. This money is also recovered from your tuition.

3. Lunch talks are the norm at top tier schools. Apart from CLS I have visited Yale and Harvard and every day at noon all these schools organize a bunch of talks where lunch is served.

4. Interaction with JDs. I cannot speak for Chicago but I would be surprised if they were showed much care for LLM students. There is someone on this board currently from Stanford who's experience with JD students there matches my own.

5. Choice of city - This should never be a factor for selection of law school. The only exception being that students who are looking for jobs in the US will find it easier if their law school is close to NY (which is pretty much where the few available jobs are). The much advertised LLM Job Fair is a joke and the only people who make it are those who cold call firms or have contacts. In both those cases effort in the form of visiting or emailing firms is required which is easier if you are close to NYC.My friends from Harvard even pick their Spring semester courses in a way to leave a working day free for travel to NY.

That said, if you had to pick a city it would undoubtedly be New York or D.C.

6. A word on yields - I have a senior who did his LLM last year from Chicago and have some idea as to the yields which are the poorest among law schools pretending to be the elite.

Finally I am sorry you and others from Chicago feel this is a negative comment. I am ready to debate the reasonableness of my views in a fair manner and I think CLS has plenty of its own faults which I have no problem accepting if someone were to point those out.

Well I have no time or intention to keep arguing with you. This will be my last post here. I just want to point out again that anyone can say anything on the internet, please base your decision on reliable information. In Chicago's case, we have a Facebook page for newly admitted students and will also provide you with contacts of current students.

Quouting imnc:

"I have a senior who did his LLM last year from Chicago and have some idea as to the yields which are the poorest among law schools pretending to be the elite."
"My friends from Harvard
"LLM Job Fair is a joke and the only people who make it are those who cold call firms or have contacts."
"90% of those with confirmed offers from Chicago will go elsewhere"
"at Chicago, they have 2-3 really good courses as you mention but their constitutional law faculty is (like CLS) poor and their corporate law faculty (unlike CLS) is also bad."

I really find it weird that a student from Columbia has the time to scatter so many wrong information just to make Chicago look bad. Im not upset at all for any negative comment on Chicago. But I do get upset with lies and made-up bullshit. And Im willing to come and say something here because I really have a great time here in Chicago, and I dont want anyone to miss the chance come here because of some false info on the internet. And the fact that imnc keeps saying he/she is telling the truth doesn't make his/her wrong information really become true...

1.The yielding rate is much much more higher than you guess. I know this from chatting with our dean. No LLM program discloses this data, thats why I dont feel appropriate to disclose anything on this forum. But in any case, using a made-up number to bash on a school is not a decent move.

2. Chicago students who participated in the job fair got 7 interviews in average(this is in one of Dean Badgers emails). And a lot of my classmates, including myself, have got callbacks from firms. Some others already have a job offer through contacts before job fair. I would assume students in Harvard have similar or better outcomes.
Im really starting to wonder are you really in Columbia? Or, are you in the U.S. at all? YHS, Chicago, Columbia, Virginia and Michigan have their job fair together at Columbia, which is smaller(the size of participating students) than the one that NYU holds.

3. Regarding faculties. I find it ridiculous that Chicago would need someone to defend their professors. Ive already said something in my previous post, and I dont intend to say anymore. If you only know about Judge Posner among all these great faculties, maybe you should do more research before you call them poor.

I never said those factors should be the only factors when making a decision. Like I said, I dont have any first hand info about other law schools. If they do have the things I mentioned, its great to know that everyone can enjoy the same experience. But again, Chicago really is strong in a lot of aspects in choosing a LLM program(courses, faculties, the city, community, prestigeetc). I advise people to find someone from each school youre considering and chat with them in order to make a decision base on truthful info. At least thats what I did last year and it turned out very well for me.

Good luck to everyone!

Imnc, when you add adjectives and qualifications to your arguments, they lose all their value. I dont know if you learned that in your school or working, but its true. I can tell you from my experience as Associate in the best Law Firm in Arbitration (where you have to argue constantly) in Perú. I just want to add something, since aparently i was not so clear in this. Fortunatelly I already have a job in New York, also in one of the best Law Firms in Arbitration, this time in the world. So if you think that people looking for a Job should live in NYC or close to there, you are totally wrong. So far, we are 3 persons from U.Chicago in the same Law Firm in NYC, and there is also people from Berkeley and other school/cities so far away from NYC. I came to Chicago even against the advice of one of the best International Arbitration Lawyers in USA, who told me that to get a job in Arbitration I should go to Columbia (due to thier Arbitratiom Program). But fortunatelly here I am, with a Job in NYC and not in his Law Firm, just to be clear. So that argument is totally speculatuve, as many other you mentioned. In any case, as David mentioned, guys, base your decisions in real data and research, not mere speculations. This will be my las post as well. Good luck to everyone.

Thank your David and pmoribregante for your well reasoned and informative posts. You have done your law school proud.

This will also be my last post as I see little point in having a discussion with someone (imnc) who is clearly on a mission to justify their own life choices by trolling internet forums. I would recommend anyone who reads this thread to ignore imnc's ranting and instead obtain their information from more credible sources. You may ultimately decide that Chicago is not the school for you, but at least you will have based your decision on credible material.

dyc

I can only recommend you once again read the stuff you posted earlier before my response. Like Dean Badger's email with the temptations of wine with Judge Posner (which I found a ridiculous gimmick, maybe HLS will next offer parasailing with Tribe) all you could write about for 10-12 inches were free food, pocket money for students and interactions with JD, along with some opinion about Chicago, and you expect these to be substantive reasons for people making a choice. I wonder whether you're a front for UC's admissions staff.

In your latest rant today all you can cite as solid evidence of yield is a conversation with your dean..who has an interest in the matter and may or may not have kept you fully informed about the statistics.

UC may or may not be worth it for an LLM but you sure are a horrible lawyer and poor advocate.

dyc

I can only recommend you once again read the stuff you posted earlier before my response. Like Dean Badger's email with the temptations of wine with Judge Posner (which I found a ridiculous gimmick, maybe HLS will next offer parasailing with Tribe) all you could write about for 10-12 inches were free food, pocket money for students and interactions with JD, along with some opinion about Chicago, and you expect these to be substantive reasons for people making a choice. I wonder whether you're a front for UC's admissions staff.

In your latest rant today all you can cite as solid evidence of yield is a conversation with your dean..who has an interest in the matter and may or may not have kept you fully informed about the statistics.

UC may or may not be worth it for an LLM but you sure are a horrible lawyer and poor advocate.

Hi.

I am a student of the llm class at UChicago. I was wait listed - and I know for certain that Dean Badger is very transparent in his emails and he provides you specific numbers of the wait listed candidates and how many usually are accepted (trend in past years) from the standby pool.

Try you read the attachment in the email he may have sent - and you will have more information. Hope this helps.

@ pmoribregante - thanks!

Is it possible in any way for you to confirm how many offers UChicago makes to fill the 70 seats & how many it puts on the WL?

I must admit that I am quite fascinated by your devotion to your "cause" imnc. It seems like this is something you, for some obscure reason, care deeply for.

I noticed that you in your post criticize dyc's use of the dean as a source. However, simultaneously, you don't seem to cite any source at all for you claim that "90% of those with confirmed offers from Chicago will go elsewhere"?

To all the current UC students who are posting here, I realise my posts may sound offensive but that is not my intention. So I apologize if i came across as rude. I only reflect my genuine beliefs and the perceptions which I have, founded on my experiences and my discussions with my colleagues, friends not just at CLS but at other law schools. Just to clarify I am not defending CLS although that was my choice (over HLS, for complex reasons). I am always happy to point out the problems of CLS as well but that can be done on the CLS thread.

To all the current UC students who are posting here, I realise my posts may sound offensive but that is not my intention. So I apologize if i came across as rude. I only reflect my genuine beliefs and the perceptions which I have, founded on my experiences and my discussions with my colleagues, friends not just at CLS but at other law schools. Just to clarify I am not defending CLS although that was my choice (over HLS, for complex reasons). I am always happy to point out the problems of CLS as well but that can be done on the CLS thread.

Guys, if you are still thinking about it and you value the rankings.... besides Harvard and Standford, UChicago is one of the few Universities of the USA in the top 10 universities around the world. Think about it :) http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2015#sorting=rank+region=+country=+faculty=+stars=false+search=