Oxford MLF applicants 2015


mishieru07

I am a current MJur student. I like my programme, its great. However, to be fair I have to clarify some things here:

1. the MLF is perceived as the elite programme here. It is widespread knowledge here that it is more selective. But dont take my word for it, just check out the statistics published by the Law Faculty. I personally did apply but didnt get in!

2. It is administered by the Law School, not the Business School. Still I know that they mostly hang out at the Business School, if you ever come to Oxford, you will find out why.

3. They share the same exact courses with us, in which we sit together. The difference is that they do less law courses and instead have finance classes at the Business School. As far as I know they share the same electives with the Master in Finance and MBA.

3. It has great prestige among employers. I know for a fact from my friends who take the MLF, that from this years cohort for example at least 3 made it to major investment banks in London (im talking Goldman, Lazard etc). Others will start at magic circle firms in London. I know from 2 who have offers from Clifford. One guy has an offer from a hedge fund, others go into consulting.

In fact that is the most impressive part about the programme. Many of them did not have a finance background before they came here, or are only qualified in different jurisdictions. And yet they get offers from major investment banks and law firms in London. I want to see ANY other programme that can claim that!!

Also, just for illustration, Freshfields organizes a weekend recruitment event later this year. Applications open to Oxbridge and London Law Schools. Those guys are the only ones I know of who dont have to apply but can just sign up!! This programme is exceptionally well regarded by employers!!

I can personally guarantee who ever says anything else either doent know what he is talking about or is just angry for getting rejected. I understand, I was disappointed too. But I take it with honor and fairness!! "jsd" (who is member of llm-guide since 2009, what are you actually doing with your life mate, re-applying to llm's for 6 years know???) might want to do the same.

4. Lastly, everyone I talked to from the programme is totally happy with it!! I heared nothing bad about it ever.

In fact thats the reason why I signed up to llm guide just now. I saw this rediculous ill-informed comment and wanted to correct it first hand.

In summary: If you want to stay in law and work for magic circle in London, MLF is the way. If you want to move out of law into finance or consulting, MLF is the way. If you are just interested in finance and quantitative stuff, MLF is the way.

ps: everyone agrees that "MLF" is not so nice, too close to MiLF. I made fun with my friend about it. He said thats why they carry "MSc". However, most people here dont really feel its necessary to run around carrying that title like: look I went to Oxford. Thats kind of lame my friend.


I'm a current BCL (hello there! :D), and I agree with most of what you're saying. As far as I can tell, the MLF is a very respectable programme.

1. I'm surprised to hear that the MLF is more competitive than the BCL/ MJur; I was always under the impression that the BCL/ MJur are seen as the Law Faculty's flagship postgrad programmes (but to be fair, the MLF is relatively new) I imagine they might look at slightly different things - I've been told the Finance stuff is pretty Maths heavy, so someone with a pure Law background might be better suited for the BCL/ MJur.

2. Well, Said and the Law Faculty are on the opposite ends of town, so I guess it depends on where they have classes more often? :P

3. Yep - they have 2 Law courses and 3 Finance courses, BCL/ MJur have 4 law courses. There are some restrictions on the law courses that MLFers can do though - they can't do courses like Restitution or Commercial Remedies or International Commercial Arbitration. This might be worth checking out for prospective applicants who wish to study specific subjects.

My personal view is that a BCL/ MJur would possibly be advantageous for the bar, but I suspect that the MLF is seen as on par or possibly even better (eg finance-specific jobs) by the other employers.

<blockquote>I am a current MJur student. I like my programme, its great. However, to be fair I have to clarify some things here:

1. the MLF is perceived as the elite programme here. It is widespread knowledge here that it is more selective. But dont take my word for it, just check out the statistics published by the Law Faculty. I personally did apply but didnt get in!

2. It is administered by the Law School, not the Business School. Still I know that they mostly hang out at the Business School, if you ever come to Oxford, you will find out why.

3. They share the same exact courses with us, in which we sit together. The difference is that they do less law courses and instead have finance classes at the Business School. As far as I know they share the same electives with the Master in Finance and MBA.

3. It has great prestige among employers. I know for a fact from my friends who take the MLF, that from this years cohort for example at least 3 made it to major investment banks in London (im talking Goldman, Lazard etc). Others will start at magic circle firms in London. I know from 2 who have offers from Clifford. One guy has an offer from a hedge fund, others go into consulting.

In fact that is the most impressive part about the programme. Many of them did not have a finance background before they came here, or are only qualified in different jurisdictions. And yet they get offers from major investment banks and law firms in London. I want to see ANY other programme that can claim that!!

Also, just for illustration, Freshfields organizes a weekend recruitment event later this year. Applications open to Oxbridge and London Law Schools. Those guys are the only ones I know of who dont have to apply but can just sign up!! This programme is exceptionally well regarded by employers!!

I can personally guarantee who ever says anything else either doent know what he is talking about or is just angry for getting rejected. I understand, I was disappointed too. But I take it with honor and fairness!! "jsd" (who is member of llm-guide since 2009, what are you actually doing with your life mate, re-applying to llm's for 6 years know???) might want to do the same.

4. Lastly, everyone I talked to from the programme is totally happy with it!! I heared nothing bad about it ever.

In fact thats the reason why I signed up to llm guide just now. I saw this rediculous ill-informed comment and wanted to correct it first hand.

In summary: If you want to stay in law and work for magic circle in London, MLF is the way. If you want to move out of law into finance or consulting, MLF is the way. If you are just interested in finance and quantitative stuff, MLF is the way.

ps: everyone agrees that "MLF" is not so nice, too close to MiLF. I made fun with my friend about it. He said thats why they carry "MSc". However, most people here dont really feel its necessary to run around carrying that title like: look I went to Oxford. Thats kind of lame my friend.</blockquote>

I'm a current BCL (hello there! :D), and I agree with most of what you're saying. As far as I can tell, the MLF is a very respectable programme.

1. I'm surprised to hear that the MLF is more competitive than the BCL/ MJur; I was always under the impression that the BCL/ MJur are seen as the Law Faculty's flagship postgrad programmes (but to be fair, the MLF is relatively new) I imagine they might look at slightly different things - I've been told the Finance stuff is pretty Maths heavy, so someone with a pure Law background might be better suited for the BCL/ MJur.

2. Well, Said and the Law Faculty are on the opposite ends of town, so I guess it depends on where they have classes more often? :P

3. Yep - they have 2 Law courses and 3 Finance courses, BCL/ MJur have 4 law courses. There are some restrictions on the law courses that MLFers can do though - they can't do courses like Restitution or Commercial Remedies or International Commercial Arbitration. This might be worth checking out for prospective applicants who wish to study specific subjects.

My personal view is that a BCL/ MJur would possibly be advantageous for the bar, but I suspect that the MLF is seen as on par or possibly even better (eg finance-specific jobs) by the other employers.
quote
law01

I am a current MJur student. I like my programme, its great. However, to be fair I have to clarify some things here:

1. the MLF is perceived as the elite programme here. It is widespread knowledge here that it is more selective. But dont take my word for it, just check out the statistics published by the Law Faculty. I personally did apply but didnt get in!


2. It is administered by the Law School, not the Business School. Still I know that they mostly hang out at the Business School, if you ever come to Oxford, you will find out why.

3. They share the same exact courses with us, in which we sit together. The difference is that they do less law courses and instead have finance classes at the Business School. As far as I know they share the same electives with the Master in Finance and MBA.

3. It has great prestige among employers. I know for a fact from my friends who take the MLF, that from this years cohort for example at least 3 made it to major investment banks in London (im talking Goldman, Lazard etc). Others will start at magic circle firms in London. I know from 2 who have offers from Clifford. One guy has an offer from a hedge fund, others go into consulting.

In fact that is the most impressive part about the programme. Many of them did not have a finance background before they came here, or are only qualified in different jurisdictions. And yet they get offers from major investment banks and law firms in London. I want to see ANY other programme that can claim that!!

Also, just for illustration, Freshfields organizes a weekend recruitment event later this year. Applications open to Oxbridge and London Law Schools. Those guys are the only ones I know of who dont have to apply but can just sign up!! This programme is exceptionally well regarded by employers!!

I can personally guarantee who ever says anything else either doent know what he is talking about or is just angry for getting rejected. I understand, I was disappointed too. But I take it with honor and fairness!! "jsd" (who is member of llm-guide since 2009, what are you actually doing with your life mate, re-applying to llm's for 6 years know???) might want to do the same.

4. Lastly, everyone I talked to from the programme is totally happy with it!! I heared nothing bad about it ever.

In fact thats the reason why I signed up to llm guide just now. I saw this rediculous ill-informed comment and wanted to correct it first hand.

In summary: If you want to stay in law and work for magic circle in London, MLF is the way. If you want to move out of law into finance or consulting, MLF is the way. If you are just interested in finance and quantitative stuff, MLF is the way.

ps: everyone agrees that "MLF" is not so nice, too close to MiLF. I made fun with my friend about it. He said thats why they carry "MSc". However, most people here dont really feel its necessary to run around carrying that title like: look I went to Oxford. Thats kind of lame my friend.


I'm a current BCL (hello there! :D), and I agree with most of what you're saying. As far as I can tell, the MLF is a very respectable programme.

1. I'm surprised to hear that the MLF is more competitive than the BCL/ MJur; I was always under the impression that the BCL/ MJur are seen as the Law Faculty's flagship postgrad programmes (but to be fair, the MLF is relatively new) I imagine they might look at slightly different things - I've been told the Finance stuff is pretty Maths heavy, so someone with a pure Law background might be better suited for the BCL/ MJur.

2. Well, Said and the Law Faculty are on the opposite ends of town, so I guess it depends on where they have classes more often? :P

3. Yep - they have 2 Law courses and 3 Finance courses, BCL/ MJur have 4 law courses. There are some restrictions on the law courses that MLFers can do though - they can't do courses like Restitution or Commercial Remedies or International Commercial Arbitration. This might be worth checking out for prospective applicants who wish to study specific subjects.

My personal view is that a BCL/ MJur would possibly be advantageous for the bar, but I suspect that the MLF is seen as on par or possibly even better (eg finance-specific jobs) by the other employers.



I agree with your points!! however I do not agree with most of the points made by Marta; firstly according the Oxford's website the BCL receives almost double the applications received for the MLF. Further to this, as a prospective barrister I guarantee you that for the Bar the BCL it the TOP course anyone can enroll. And to be honest even in magic circle firms they consider the BCL, together with the Harvard LLM to be the two best post-grad courses. The MLF is by no means a 'crap' degree as called by someone in an earlier post, but it does not compare with the BCL; and to be honest it wouldn't be reasonable for that to be the case since the MLF correct me if I am wrong) is a relatively new course.

Talking with barristers in the chancery will make you realise that the only post-graduate degree that could REALLY add something to your CV when applying for pupillage would be the BCL.

Finally; Marta argues that she knows people who work in investment banking because they did the MLF; I beg to differ; it is not the MLF that gt them the job but it was the name of the University. I know people who studied classics/history/criminology in Oxbridge and are now working in London in investment banking, without any post-grad qualification; having only the aforementioned degrees, which are, by no means, relevant to finance/investment banking, but they are were employed by top investment banks simply because they are Oxbridge graduates

<blockquote><blockquote>I am a current MJur student. I like my programme, its great. However, to be fair I have to clarify some things here:

1. the MLF is perceived as the elite programme here. It is widespread knowledge here that it is more selective. But dont take my word for it, just check out the statistics published by the Law Faculty. I personally did apply but didnt get in!




2. It is administered by the Law School, not the Business School. Still I know that they mostly hang out at the Business School, if you ever come to Oxford, you will find out why.

3. They share the same exact courses with us, in which we sit together. The difference is that they do less law courses and instead have finance classes at the Business School. As far as I know they share the same electives with the Master in Finance and MBA.

3. It has great prestige among employers. I know for a fact from my friends who take the MLF, that from this years cohort for example at least 3 made it to major investment banks in London (im talking Goldman, Lazard etc). Others will start at magic circle firms in London. I know from 2 who have offers from Clifford. One guy has an offer from a hedge fund, others go into consulting.

In fact that is the most impressive part about the programme. Many of them did not have a finance background before they came here, or are only qualified in different jurisdictions. And yet they get offers from major investment banks and law firms in London. I want to see ANY other programme that can claim that!!

Also, just for illustration, Freshfields organizes a weekend recruitment event later this year. Applications open to Oxbridge and London Law Schools. Those guys are the only ones I know of who dont have to apply but can just sign up!! This programme is exceptionally well regarded by employers!!

I can personally guarantee who ever says anything else either doent know what he is talking about or is just angry for getting rejected. I understand, I was disappointed too. But I take it with honor and fairness!! "jsd" (who is member of llm-guide since 2009, what are you actually doing with your life mate, re-applying to llm's for 6 years know???) might want to do the same.

4. Lastly, everyone I talked to from the programme is totally happy with it!! I heared nothing bad about it ever.

In fact thats the reason why I signed up to llm guide just now. I saw this rediculous ill-informed comment and wanted to correct it first hand.

In summary: If you want to stay in law and work for magic circle in London, MLF is the way. If you want to move out of law into finance or consulting, MLF is the way. If you are just interested in finance and quantitative stuff, MLF is the way.

ps: everyone agrees that "MLF" is not so nice, too close to MiLF. I made fun with my friend about it. He said thats why they carry "MSc". However, most people here dont really feel its necessary to run around carrying that title like: look I went to Oxford. Thats kind of lame my friend.</blockquote>

I'm a current BCL (hello there! :D), and I agree with most of what you're saying. As far as I can tell, the MLF is a very respectable programme.

1. I'm surprised to hear that the MLF is more competitive than the BCL/ MJur; I was always under the impression that the BCL/ MJur are seen as the Law Faculty's flagship postgrad programmes (but to be fair, the MLF is relatively new) I imagine they might look at slightly different things - I've been told the Finance stuff is pretty Maths heavy, so someone with a pure Law background might be better suited for the BCL/ MJur.

2. Well, Said and the Law Faculty are on the opposite ends of town, so I guess it depends on where they have classes more often? :P

3. Yep - they have 2 Law courses and 3 Finance courses, BCL/ MJur have 4 law courses. There are some restrictions on the law courses that MLFers can do though - they can't do courses like Restitution or Commercial Remedies or International Commercial Arbitration. This might be worth checking out for prospective applicants who wish to study specific subjects.

My personal view is that a BCL/ MJur would possibly be advantageous for the bar, but I suspect that the MLF is seen as on par or possibly even better (eg finance-specific jobs) by the other employers. </blockquote>


I agree with your points!! however I do not agree with most of the points made by Marta; firstly according the Oxford's website the BCL receives almost double the applications received for the MLF. Further to this, as a prospective barrister I guarantee you that for the Bar the BCL it the TOP course anyone can enroll. And to be honest even in magic circle firms they consider the BCL, together with the Harvard LLM to be the two best post-grad courses. The MLF is by no means a 'crap' degree as called by someone in an earlier post, but it does not compare with the BCL; and to be honest it wouldn't be reasonable for that to be the case since the MLF correct me if I am wrong) is a relatively new course.

Talking with barristers in the chancery will make you realise that the only post-graduate degree that could REALLY add something to your CV when applying for pupillage would be the BCL.

Finally; Marta argues that she knows people who work in investment banking because they did the MLF; I beg to differ; it is not the MLF that gt them the job but it was the name of the University. I know people who studied classics/history/criminology in Oxbridge and are now working in London in investment banking, without any post-grad qualification; having only the aforementioned degrees, which are, by no means, relevant to finance/investment banking, but they are were employed by top investment banks simply because they are Oxbridge graduates
quote
makethink

hi all, just wondering when to expect any news regarding applications to the mlf? official website states march and it is fast approaching.

does the mlf programme only accept first class honours degrees exclusively?

hi all, just wondering when to expect any news regarding applications to the mlf? official website states march and it is fast approaching.

does the mlf programme only accept first class honours degrees exclusively?
quote
jsd

Well, hello there. A fellow Oxonian - even if you're just a year long MJur tourist.

Your lack of understanding of the British legal market is evident from this statement

In summary: If you want to stay in law and work for magic circle in London, MLF is the way. If you want to move out of law into finance or consulting, MLF is the way. If you are just interested in finance and quantitative stuff, MLF is the way.


The MLF is simply no substitute for a graduate law degree, leave aside the BCL. Anyone who ever seriously considered the MLF and the BCL as alternatives at the same time is unfocussed and must reflect on their professional goals. Even an LLM from LSE / KCL is more directly beneficial for a career as a city lawyer than the MLF. I cannot comment on whether the MLF is more beneficial in order to get an offer as a financial consultant as that is outside my area of expertise (law) - though I suspect an MBA from Said would be more helpful in that respect.

p Your last line had me in splits. No doubt you committed a year to read for the MJur not because of the advantage of an Oxford label and the pride that comes with it but for the sights and air of the south of England.

Well, hello there. A fellow Oxonian - even if you're just a year long MJur tourist.

Your lack of understanding of the British legal market is evident from this statement

<blockquote>In summary: If you want to stay in law and work for magic circle in London, MLF is the way. If you want to move out of law into finance or consulting, MLF is the way. If you are just interested in finance and quantitative stuff, MLF is the way.</blockquote>

The MLF is simply no substitute for a graduate law degree, leave aside the BCL. Anyone who ever seriously considered the MLF and the BCL as alternatives at the same time is unfocussed and must reflect on their professional goals. Even an LLM from LSE / KCL is more directly beneficial for a career as a city lawyer than the MLF. I cannot comment on whether the MLF is more beneficial in order to get an offer as a financial consultant as that is outside my area of expertise (law) - though I suspect an MBA from Said would be more helpful in that respect.

p Your last line had me in splits. No doubt you committed a year to read for the MJur not because of the advantage of an Oxford label and the pride that comes with it but for the sights and air of the south of England.
quote
mishieru07

Well, hello there. A fellow Oxonian - even if you're just a year long MJur tourist.

Your lack of understanding of the British legal market is evident from this statement

The MLF is simply no substitute for a graduate law degree, leave aside the BCL. Anyone who ever seriously considered the MLF and the BCL as alternatives at the same time is unfocussed and must reflect on their professional goals. Even an LLM from LSE / KCL is more directly beneficial for a career as a city lawyer than the MLF. I cannot comment on whether the MLF is more beneficial in order to get an offer as a financial consultant as that is outside my area of expertise (law) - though I suspect an MBA from Said would be more helpful in that respect.

p Your last line had me in splits. No doubt you committed a year to read for the MJur not because of the advantage of an Oxford label and the pride that comes with it but for the sights and air of the south of England.


I'm not sure it's fair to call MJur students "tourists". They share most of their subjects with the BCLers (ie equally difficult) at any rate; I think you severely undervalue the amount of work required just to cope on the BCL/ MJur. Also, I don't see anything inherently wrong with making use of one's time in Oxford to travel and learn more about the UK/ Europe. Not everyone comes from this part of the world, and chances are it's unlikely that such an opportunity will arise again, at least in the near future.

I'm honestly not very sure to what extent a postgrad degree really value adds to one's career as a city lawyer as far as recruitment goes. As far as I can tell, most law firms don't see it as a requirement for recruitment (the bar, of course, is a different story), although you might get some brownie points for it (which in my mind doesn't wholly justify the price tag + additional year out, unless one just wants to engage in further study, and most people are probably already sitting on a TC by this point unless they plan on taking another year off). Perhaps it might be of some use in practice, but this would probably depend on subject choice.

<blockquote>Well, hello there. A fellow Oxonian - even if you're just a year long MJur tourist.

Your lack of understanding of the British legal market is evident from this statement

The MLF is simply no substitute for a graduate law degree, leave aside the BCL. Anyone who ever seriously considered the MLF and the BCL as alternatives at the same time is unfocussed and must reflect on their professional goals. Even an LLM from LSE / KCL is more directly beneficial for a career as a city lawyer than the MLF. I cannot comment on whether the MLF is more beneficial in order to get an offer as a financial consultant as that is outside my area of expertise (law) - though I suspect an MBA from Said would be more helpful in that respect.

p Your last line had me in splits. No doubt you committed a year to read for the MJur not because of the advantage of an Oxford label and the pride that comes with it but for the sights and air of the south of England. </blockquote>

I'm not sure it's fair to call MJur students "tourists". They share most of their subjects with the BCLers (ie equally difficult) at any rate; I think you severely undervalue the amount of work required just to cope on the BCL/ MJur. Also, I don't see anything inherently wrong with making use of one's time in Oxford to travel and learn more about the UK/ Europe. Not everyone comes from this part of the world, and chances are it's unlikely that such an opportunity will arise again, at least in the near future.

I'm honestly not very sure to what extent a postgrad degree really value adds to one's career as a city lawyer as far as recruitment goes. As far as I can tell, most law firms don't see it as a requirement for recruitment (the bar, of course, is a different story), although you might get some brownie points for it (which in my mind doesn't wholly justify the price tag + additional year out, unless one just wants to engage in further study, and most people are probably already sitting on a TC by this point unless they plan on taking another year off). Perhaps it might be of some use in practice, but this would probably depend on subject choice.
quote
jsd

I think you severely undervalue the amount of work required just to cope on the BCL/ MJur. Also, I don't see anything inherently wrong with making use of one's time in Oxford to travel and learn more about the UK/ Europe. Not everyone comes from this part of the world, and chances are it's unlikely that such an opportunity will arise again, at least in the near future.

I'm honestly not very sure to what extent a postgrad degree really value adds to one's career as a city lawyer as far as recruitment goes. As far as I can tell, most law firms don't see it as a requirement for recruitment (the bar, of course, is a different story), although you might get some brownie points for it (which in my mind doesn't wholly justify the price tag + additional year out,


The BCL/MJur, like most courses marketed for international students is ridiculously easy (by Oxonian standards). Last year some >40% received a pass with distinction. By comparison less than 15% in my BA class were awarded a first. Risk of failure is very real in the BA compared to the BCL/MJur. Perhaps I am a bit harsh but that's how it is.

The rest of your post I am completely in agreement though I would say that a BCL with a first would make a real difference in obtaining pupillage.

<blockquote> I think you severely undervalue the amount of work required just to cope on the BCL/ MJur. Also, I don't see anything inherently wrong with making use of one's time in Oxford to travel and learn more about the UK/ Europe. Not everyone comes from this part of the world, and chances are it's unlikely that such an opportunity will arise again, at least in the near future.

I'm honestly not very sure to what extent a postgrad degree really value adds to one's career as a city lawyer as far as recruitment goes. As far as I can tell, most law firms don't see it as a requirement for recruitment (the bar, of course, is a different story), although you might get some brownie points for it (which in my mind doesn't wholly justify the price tag + additional year out,</blockquote>

The BCL/MJur, like most courses marketed for international students is ridiculously easy (by Oxonian standards). Last year some >40% received a pass with distinction. By comparison less than 15% in my BA class were awarded a first. Risk of failure is very real in the BA compared to the BCL/MJur. Perhaps I am a bit harsh but that's how it is.

The rest of your post I am completely in agreement though I would say that a BCL with a first would make a real difference in obtaining pupillage.
quote
jlemaitr

Even though the argument on wether this program is a total crap that is just intended to suck our money without offering us any future or the best program ever for a lawyer interested in financial law is delightful, I would like to ask if any of you has already received any admission offer as they began offering them last year in the first week of march.

Thanks a lot

Even though the argument on wether this program is a total crap that is just intended to suck our money without offering us any future or the best program ever for a lawyer interested in financial law is delightful, I would like to ask if any of you has already received any admission offer as they began offering them last year in the first week of march.

Thanks a lot
quote
makethink

Even though the argument on wether this program is a total crap that is just intended to suck our money without offering us any future or the best program ever for a lawyer interested in financial law is delightful, I would like to ask if any of you has already received any admission offer as they began offering them last year in the first week of march.

Thanks a lot


Hello there friend, do you know if Oxford MLF will be offering places starting this year first week of March as well?

Or anything you can provide regarding what the intake in students are like? First class honours etc? How much do they take into account one's recommendation letters, personal statement and resume?

<blockquote>Even though the argument on wether this program is a total crap that is just intended to suck our money without offering us any future or the best program ever for a lawyer interested in financial law is delightful, I would like to ask if any of you has already received any admission offer as they began offering them last year in the first week of march.

Thanks a lot</blockquote>

Hello there friend, do you know if Oxford MLF will be offering places starting this year first week of March as well?

Or anything you can provide regarding what the intake in students are like? First class honours etc? How much do they take into account one's recommendation letters, personal statement and resume?
quote
Audacious

I think you severely undervalue the amount of work required just to cope on the BCL/ MJur. Also, I don't see anything inherently wrong with making use of one's time in Oxford to travel and learn more about the UK/ Europe. Not everyone comes from this part of the world, and chances are it's unlikely that such an opportunity will arise again, at least in the near future.

I'm honestly not very sure to what extent a postgrad degree really value adds to one's career as a city lawyer as far as recruitment goes. As far as I can tell, most law firms don't see it as a requirement for recruitment (the bar, of course, is a different story), although you might get some brownie points for it (which in my mind doesn't wholly justify the price tag + additional year out,


The BCL/MJur, like most courses marketed for international students is ridiculously easy (by Oxonian standards). Last year some >40% received a pass with distinction. By comparison less than 15% in my BA class were awarded a first. Risk of failure is very real in the BA compared to the BCL/MJur. Perhaps I am a bit harsh but that's how it is.

The rest of your post I am completely in agreement though I would say that a BCL with a first would make a real difference in obtaining pupillage.


I doubt that's an accurate representation. The reason why there is a higher occurrence of distinction is because the base level of students in the course all have first class degrees, usually professional qualifications as well as publications and myriad experience. It's disingenuous to assume the more frequent award of distinctions is because it's easier in comparison to an undergrad degree where students are probably not achieving as high a standard as they are not at such an advanced stage of their academic or professional careers.
Undergrads and the calibre of grads applying simply aren't commensurate.

<blockquote><blockquote> I think you severely undervalue the amount of work required just to cope on the BCL/ MJur. Also, I don't see anything inherently wrong with making use of one's time in Oxford to travel and learn more about the UK/ Europe. Not everyone comes from this part of the world, and chances are it's unlikely that such an opportunity will arise again, at least in the near future.

I'm honestly not very sure to what extent a postgrad degree really value adds to one's career as a city lawyer as far as recruitment goes. As far as I can tell, most law firms don't see it as a requirement for recruitment (the bar, of course, is a different story), although you might get some brownie points for it (which in my mind doesn't wholly justify the price tag + additional year out,</blockquote>

The BCL/MJur, like most courses marketed for international students is ridiculously easy (by Oxonian standards). Last year some >40% received a pass with distinction. By comparison less than 15% in my BA class were awarded a first. Risk of failure is very real in the BA compared to the BCL/MJur. Perhaps I am a bit harsh but that's how it is.

The rest of your post I am completely in agreement though I would say that a BCL with a first would make a real difference in obtaining pupillage. </blockquote>

I doubt that's an accurate representation. The reason why there is a higher occurrence of distinction is because the base level of students in the course all have first class degrees, usually professional qualifications as well as publications and myriad experience. It's disingenuous to assume the more frequent award of distinctions is because it's easier in comparison to an undergrad degree where students are probably not achieving as high a standard as they are not at such an advanced stage of their academic or professional careers.
Undergrads and the calibre of grads applying simply aren't commensurate.
quote
mishieru07


The BCL/MJur, like most courses marketed for international students is ridiculously easy (by Oxonian standards). Last year some >40% received a pass with distinction. By comparison less than 15% in my BA class were awarded a first. Risk of failure is very real in the BA compared to the BCL/MJur. Perhaps I am a bit harsh but that's how it is.

The rest of your post I am completely in agreement though I would say that a BCL with a first would make a real difference in obtaining pupillage.


I did my BA at Oxford, and I concede that our First rate is pretty low compared to other subjects, and certainly low compared to the BCL. In fact, there has been a concerted effort to raise it; the rate for my batch was 21%.

I don't agree with your assertion that the "risk of failure is very real in the BA" though. The number of people attaining 2ii has been low in recent years, and the number of people getting Thirds/ Pass/ Fail has been 5 or less in the past 4 years. Maybe it was different in previous years (looking at the oldest examiners report available online, the 2ii rate was above 10% for both 1999 and 2000, but fell dramatically to 6% in 2001), but it's actually quite rare to get a 2ii (or lower) under the current rubrics. Whether that's a good thing is another kettle of fish.

The other point is that on the BCL, the default requirement is a First, so everyone comes in with a certain standard already. It is obviously open to the faculty to grade more harshly (eg to the same standards of the BA, which is 15-20% first), but I would argue the higher distinction rate reflects the quality of the students to begin with.

Personally, I've found the BCL/ MJur to be MUCH tougher than the BA - everything is more difficult conceptually, and the amount of work is just ridiculous.

<blockquote>
The BCL/MJur, like most courses marketed for international students is ridiculously easy (by Oxonian standards). Last year some >40% received a pass with distinction. By comparison less than 15% in my BA class were awarded a first. Risk of failure is very real in the BA compared to the BCL/MJur. Perhaps I am a bit harsh but that's how it is.

The rest of your post I am completely in agreement though I would say that a BCL with a first would make a real difference in obtaining pupillage. </blockquote>

I did my BA at Oxford, and I concede that our First rate is pretty low compared to other subjects, and certainly low compared to the BCL. In fact, there has been a concerted effort to raise it; the rate for my batch was 21%.

I don't agree with your assertion that the "risk of failure is very real in the BA" though. The number of people attaining 2ii has been low in recent years, and the number of people getting Thirds/ Pass/ Fail has been 5 or less in the past 4 years. Maybe it was different in previous years (looking at the oldest examiners report available online, the 2ii rate was above 10% for both 1999 and 2000, but fell dramatically to 6% in 2001), but it's actually quite rare to get a 2ii (or lower) under the current rubrics. Whether that's a good thing is another kettle of fish.

The other point is that on the BCL, the default requirement is a First, so everyone comes in with a certain standard already. It is obviously open to the faculty to grade more harshly (eg to the same standards of the BA, which is 15-20% first), but I would argue the higher distinction rate reflects the quality of the students to begin with.

Personally, I've found the BCL/ MJur to be MUCH tougher than the BA - everything is more difficult conceptually, and the amount of work is just ridiculous.
quote
jsd

I did my BA at Oxford, and I concede that our First rate is pretty low compared to other subjects, and certainly low compared to the BCL. In fact, there has been a concerted effort to raise it; the rate for my batch was 21%.

I don't agree with your assertion that the "risk of failure is very real in the BA" though. The number of people attaining 2ii has been low in recent years, and the number of people getting Thirds/ Pass/ Fail has been 5 or less in the past 4 years. Maybe it was different in previous years (looking at the oldest examiners report available online, the 2ii rate was above 10% for both 1999 and 2000, but fell dramatically to 6% in 2001), but it's actually quite rare to get a 2ii (or lower) under the current rubrics. Whether that's a good thing is another kettle of fish.


Haha yes, it was a matter of speculation whether our first percentage would be improved to become comparable to some of the other faculties. When I did my LLM stateside I found a disturbing reluctance of the faculty to fail poor performers. Even the premier east coast schools treat the LLM class with kid gloves unlike their JD students.

<blockquote>I did my BA at Oxford, and I concede that our First rate is pretty low compared to other subjects, and certainly low compared to the BCL. In fact, there has been a concerted effort to raise it; the rate for my batch was 21%.

I don't agree with your assertion that the "risk of failure is very real in the BA" though. The number of people attaining 2ii has been low in recent years, and the number of people getting Thirds/ Pass/ Fail has been 5 or less in the past 4 years. Maybe it was different in previous years (looking at the oldest examiners report available online, the 2ii rate was above 10% for both 1999 and 2000, but fell dramatically to 6% in 2001), but it's actually quite rare to get a 2ii (or lower) under the current rubrics. Whether that's a good thing is another kettle of fish. </blockquote>

Haha yes, it was a matter of speculation whether our first percentage would be improved to become comparable to some of the other faculties. When I did my LLM stateside I found a disturbing reluctance of the faculty to fail poor performers. Even the premier east coast schools treat the LLM class with kid gloves unlike their JD students.
quote
thokk

Hi there,

I have just received a call from the university. They said that I have been made an offer (will be sent via e-mail today or tomorrow), but it is conditional. Anyone knows what these conditions may be?

Regards and good luck to you all!

Hi there,

I have just received a call from the university. They said that I have been made an offer (will be sent via e-mail today or tomorrow), but it is conditional. Anyone knows what these conditions may be?

Regards and good luck to you all!
quote
waywardMVR

Awesome news, congratulations! Go get wasted.

I wonder if everyone will also receive calls from them. Was this standard procedure in the previous years?

Just got an offer from Cambridge, but I'm still waiting to hear from Oxford.

Awesome news, congratulations! Go get wasted.

I wonder if everyone will also receive calls from them. Was this standard procedure in the previous years?

Just got an offer from Cambridge, but I'm still waiting to hear from Oxford.
quote
J.G.

Congratulations!
About the condition: it may have something to do with the English language requirements (so you'll have to send them some info about your IELTS/TOEFL scores etc.) or, if you're still doing your M.A. they may ask you to submit proof of your final results at the end of the academic year.

Congratulations!
About the condition: it may have something to do with the English language requirements (so you'll have to send them some info about your IELTS/TOEFL scores etc.) or, if you're still doing your M.A. they may ask you to submit proof of your final results at the end of the academic year.
quote
makethink

Does anyone know if Oxford will be calling overseas applications? or calling only local applicants?

Does anyone know if Oxford will be calling overseas applications? or calling only local applicants?
quote
waywardMVR

thokk, would you mind telling us where you are from and your credentials? Don't get me wrong, but you joined the forum last night and this morning got a call from Oxford? Sounds suspicious, to say the least.

thokk, would you mind telling us where you are from and your credentials? Don't get me wrong, but you joined the forum last night and this morning got a call from Oxford? Sounds suspicious, to say the least.
quote
thokk

thokk, would you mind telling us where you are from and your credentials? Don't get me wrong, but you joined the forum last night and this morning got a call from Oxford? Sounds suspicious, to say the least.


I joined the forum just after receiving the call in order to ask question about conditionality of the offer (previously I only read without signing up). I'm from country in CEE. Lady that called me said that they are going to call some other persons too and this is why I shall expect delivery of mail with an offer today afternoon or tomorrow. I'll let you know when it comes.

As regards the conditionality of the offer I am curious what it might mean since I am already a graduate and I passed IELTS on demanded level last year. Any other ideas what the conditions may be?

<blockquote>thokk, would you mind telling us where you are from and your credentials? Don't get me wrong, but you joined the forum last night and this morning got a call from Oxford? Sounds suspicious, to say the least.</blockquote>

I joined the forum just after receiving the call in order to ask question about conditionality of the offer (previously I only read without signing up). I'm from country in CEE. Lady that called me said that they are going to call some other persons too and this is why I shall expect delivery of mail with an offer today afternoon or tomorrow. I'll let you know when it comes.

As regards the conditionality of the offer I am curious what it might mean since I am already a graduate and I passed IELTS on demanded level last year. Any other ideas what the conditions may be?
quote
Mr SU

thokk, would you mind telling us where you are from and your credentials? Don't get me wrong, but you joined the forum last night and this morning got a call from Oxford? Sounds suspicious, to say the least.


I joined the forum just after receiving the call in order to ask question about conditionality of the offer (previously I only read without signing up). I'm from country in CEE. Lady that called me said that they are going to call some other persons too and this is why I shall expect delivery of mail with an offer today afternoon or tomorrow. I'll let you know when it comes.

As regards the conditionality of the offer I am curious what it might mean since I am already a graduate and I passed IELTS on demanded level last year. Any other ideas what the conditions may be?


Congratulations!
The conditions may probably be in relation to college admission or financial undertaking or both.
Relax though, I am sure it is not going to be a big deal.

<blockquote><blockquote>thokk, would you mind telling us where you are from and your credentials? Don't get me wrong, but you joined the forum last night and this morning got a call from Oxford? Sounds suspicious, to say the least.</blockquote>

I joined the forum just after receiving the call in order to ask question about conditionality of the offer (previously I only read without signing up). I'm from country in CEE. Lady that called me said that they are going to call some other persons too and this is why I shall expect delivery of mail with an offer today afternoon or tomorrow. I'll let you know when it comes.

As regards the conditionality of the offer I am curious what it might mean since I am already a graduate and I passed IELTS on demanded level last year. Any other ideas what the conditions may be?</blockquote>

Congratulations!
The conditions may probably be in relation to college admission or financial undertaking or both.
Relax though, I am sure it is not going to be a big deal.
quote
J.G.

Well, here's another idea: if you are currently doing some other course (eg. Master or you've started PhD/any other course that requires your presence) they may ask you to submit proof that you'll suspend it for the time of the MLF.
Anyway, don't worry too much - they'll give you enough time to do whatever they expect you to do. (And you'll know by tomorrow what it is).
You're the lucky one here [to have been offered a place:)]

Well, here's another idea: if you are currently doing some other course (eg. Master or you've started PhD/any other course that requires your presence) they may ask you to submit proof that you'll suspend it for the time of the MLF.
Anyway, don't worry too much - they'll give you enough time to do whatever they expect you to do. (And you'll know by tomorrow what it is).
You're the lucky one here [to have been offered a place:)]

quote
thokk

Well, here's another idea: if you are currently doing some other course (eg. Master or you've started PhD/any other course that requires your presence) they may ask you to submit proof that you'll suspend it for the time of the MLF.
Anyway, don't worry too much - they'll give you enough time to do whatever they expect you to do. (And you'll know by tomorrow what it is).
You're the lucky one here [to have been offered a place:)]



That might be the case - I am a PhD student. Thank you guys. I hope to see you all in Oxford in September!

<blockquote>Well, here's another idea: if you are currently doing some other course (eg. Master or you've started PhD/any other course that requires your presence) they may ask you to submit proof that you'll suspend it for the time of the MLF.
Anyway, don't worry too much - they'll give you enough time to do whatever they expect you to do. (And you'll know by tomorrow what it is).
You're the lucky one here [to have been offered a place:)]

</blockquote>

That might be the case - I am a PhD student. Thank you guys. I hope to see you all in Oxford in September!
quote

Reply to Post

Related Law Schools

Oxford, United Kingdom 792 Followers 808 Discussions

Other Related Content

Summer Law Programs 2020: Legal English & US Law

News Feb 13, 2020