Hey,

Any one else applying for MLF @ Oxford this year ?

Hello, I am still in my decision-making process, whether to apply, or not.

I am rather liking the course structure and everything.

Any information about opportunities after the course. Though I hear getting into it is no cake walk either !

Hello Everyone,

I graduated with CGPA 3.1 from one of the top universities in Pakistan. I did my 5 years BA-LLB on full scholarship from the university. I just want to know whether I would be eligible to "apply" for Oxford BCL program or not?

Will be grateful for ur response.

Hey,

Any one else applying for MLF @ Oxford this year ?

Hi, I researched this course 3 months back. It is an exceptionally well structured course and seems to be fully spot on regarding the basics but...it totally lacks the prestige of the BCL and everyone I know thinks it is a 'runners up' degree for those who got rejected to the BCL. I wanted to be in a healthy class with fellow students who were there out of choice (and not because they had no alternative) and so in the end I decided against applying.

A friend of mine in the MLF 2013/2014 class loved the course, and I suppose it improved since then. Besides, I find it unlikely that Oxford would fill the MLF class with people rejected in the BCL, there are many candidates applying to the MLF as their first choice - myself included.

Yep, I agree with waywardMVR. For example, I am interested in the MLF and not in the BCL.

They have two committees to select the students anyway.

For research degrees, the decision is made on behalf of the Faculty by the Director of Graduate Studies (Research), on the advice of members of the subject group for the proposed field of research.

For the BCL/MJur the Director of Graduate Studies (Taught Courses) plays the same role, relying in part on the advice of a panel of Faculty assessors.

The MSc in Law and Finance and MSc iin Criminology and Criminal Justice,each have an admissions panel which makes admissions decisions.

All applications will be assessed by more than one member of the academic staff with relevant experience and expertise. In all cases the Course Director will give final approval to a decision. Admissions panels or committees will always include at least one member of academic staff who has undertaken appropriate training.

BCL/MJUR: The course director is the Director of Graduate Studies for taught courses, Mr E. Peel, Keble College.

MLF: The course director is the Academic Director of the Masters in Law and Finance Programme,. Dr Daniel Awrey, Linacre College.

The MLF is a crap degree. Why? Good question.

The answer is not the quality of the stuff they teach or the faculty. Oxford has some reputed people teaching this degree and as with other super-stellar law schools everything is managed top-notch.

Yet it is a horrendous choice for most 'ordinary' LLM-seekers. For one, as already commented, it is always compared to the BCL. That's an unfair comparison between a 4 (or 5) year old degree and a hundreds-of-years institution but it happens. And when that does happen the MLF comes across a somewhat low-key, too-new curiosity which might well be prosecuted for passing-off as a BCL (superficially). Stateside, Oxford Law = BA/BCL/DPhil. I would go so far as to say that the MLF can be a hindrance for someone wanting a research doctorate in law (outside Oxford) as the senior deans in law schools will view it with suspicion. If an MLF applies to Harvard or Yale for a place at the SJD program, he will always lose out to the BCL and will almost certainly not be considered.

That apart academically the MLF comes across as an interdisciplinary degree straddling that vast beyond between law and an MBA. The downside is that it manages to match neither of those and is thought of as a non-law degree by the older more reactionary professors (for good reason)

The MLF is administered by the Said Business School, not the Law Faculty. This is partly to blame for the perception issue.

So who does it benefit? Mostly lawyers in finance practice
areas who can return to their employers with a boost up for becoming a specialist. Or someone who wants to take the course for the sake of upgrading his qualitative skills alone.

There's also the worrying aspect of having to print 'M.L.F.' besides your name

The MLF is a crap degree. Why? Good question.

Yet it is a horrendous choice for most 'ordinary' LLM-seekers. For one, as already commented, it is always compared to the BCL.

That apart academically the MLF comes across as an interdisciplinary degree straddling that vast beyond between law and an MBA. The downside is that it manages to match neither of those and is thought of as a non-law degree by the older more reactionary professors (for good reason)

The MLF is administered by the Said Business School, not the Law Faculty. This is partly to blame for the perception issue.

Hi, I researched this course 3 months back. It is an exceptionally well structured course and seems to be fully spot on regarding the basics but...it totally lacks the prestige of the BCL and everyone I know thinks it is a 'runners up' degree for those who got rejected to the BCL. I wanted to be in a healthy class with fellow students who were there out of choice (and not because they had no alternative) and so in the end I decided against applying.

Hi, I researched this course 3 months back. It is an exceptionally well structured course and seems to be fully spot on regarding the basics but...it totally lacks the prestige of the BCL and everyone I know thinks it is a 'runners up' degree for those who got rejected to the BCL. I wanted to be in a healthy class with fellow students who were there out of choice (and not because they had no alternative) and so in the end I decided against applying.

One more funny man!
Lacks the prestige? Are you crazy? Clifford Chance had an exclusive assessment day for MLFers this year, because they wanted to hire ahead of other law firms. I am not even going to mention numerous dinners for MLFers, organised by top law firms for the purposes of recruitment and networking.
Runners up? MLFers are an elite group of students who are well respected by everyone at the faculty, especially BCL students.

Hi, I researched this course 3 months back. It is an exceptionally well structured course and seems to be fully spot on regarding the basics but...it totally lacks the prestige of the BCL and everyone I know thinks it is a 'runners up' degree for those who got rejected to the BCL. I wanted to be in a healthy class with fellow students who were there out of choice (and not because they had no alternative) and so in the end I decided against applying.

One more funny man!
Lacks the prestige? Are you crazy? Clifford Chance had an exclusive assessment day for MLFers this year, because they wanted to hire ahead of other law firms. I am not even going to mention numerous dinners for MLFers, organised by top law firms for the purposes of recruitment and networking.
Runners up? MLFers are an elite group of students who are well respected by everyone at the faculty, especially BCL students.

Yes, for every lawyer that wants to have a good corporate law career, in particularly in Europe, this is the degree to pursue. Although the MCL from Cambridge is also excellent. I am grounding my argument on the courses and seminars they offer as well as on their candidates' career projections.

Yawn, this forum never ceases to astonish with the kind of wayward talk and farthing comments. Now to deal with this joker who takes pride in naming himself 'llmguider' - just so you do not confuse it with 'llmseeker'.

#1 Calling a degree crap is not hatred. It's an assessment. Instead of asking an equally crap question (i.e. Where's the hatred from) you should be asking on what I base this assessment on.

#2 I never applied to the MLF though that, of course, does not mean I would have been accepted. I did apply to the BCL many years ago and was accepted.

#3 Is it so hard to understand what perception means? Perception has nothing to do with intrinsic worth. Its what others think.

Here's a link to a post you appear to have posted on how the BCL is perceived as better than the MJur. I buy your explanation though it may sound illogical as the MJur and BCL have identical innards. It's the same with the MLF, only more so.

http://www.llm-guide.com/board/138831/post-138835

Here's what you posted

"Traditionally, the BCL is somehow considered superior to the MJur. This inexplicable discrimination exists even inside the University, as some colleges do not accept MJur students, but accept BCL students. I think the problem here is, as far as I know, that the MJur is a relatively new degree (1991), while the BCL has been well established for centuries (I mean as a degree, not namely at Oxford)."

Same script with the MLF.

Within the academic and professional worlds, the general impression is that the BCL is in an elite league while the MLF is an unknown curiosity which gets some value due to the word 'oxford' on it, but not much.

#4 Kind of you to agree that it is not a law degree. That makes a world of difference to LLM seekers. AKAIK 9 out of 10 LLM hopefuls want a LAW degree. They dont want something that looks like an LLM or which has content similar to an LLM. Ergo, that difference is substantial because my post was on the MLF as a substitute to an LLM - which is why we have this question asked on LLMGuide.com. The MLF not being a Law degree means lawyers who do it will still not be qualified as masters in law (very important to many) and also means the MLF is useless if a research doctorate in LAW is the next step.

#5 I did my undergraduate studies at Oxford and was, like most others, aware of the introduction of the MLF. It was a known fact that this was an attempt to give out an oxford brand to those who were not upto the BCL's higher academic standards of entry, especially employed lawyers with good experience but who did not have a first or a high 2:1. Obviously it could directly compete with the BCL so they put it under Said and named it a MSc. Not a single one in my class applied to the MLF. Later when I did my LLM stateside nobody among the 70% of my LLM class whom I knew had applied to the MLF. That speaks about perception. So no need to get your knickers in a twist, if you're hurting because you did the MLF, dont be, its not a bad thing but not a BCL-equivalent either. Maybe after a hundred years it might be but for now its a crap degree.

One more funny man!
Lacks the prestige? Are you crazy? Clifford Chance had an exclusive assessment day for MLFers this year, because they wanted to hire ahead of other law firms. I am not even going to mention numerous dinners for MLFers, organised by top law firms for the purposes of recruitment and networking.
Runners up? MLFers are an elite group of students who are well respected by everyone at the faculty, especially BCL students.

Your post uses offensively language.

You choose to disagree with me - I respect your choice. But at least in Norway and from my questions to friends who work in UK firms the general consensus I receive is that the MSc Law / Finance is not prestigious in the way the BCL is.
My professors at my university have a subdued opinion of this MSc program.

I spoke about your comment to someone I know at Clifford Chance. She told me that the reason they hire Msc students is because many of them have worked in Magic Circle firms before and not because of the MSc degree. Also I know of 7 people who applied to both programs and got admission to the MSc but got rejected by the BCL. There is no one who was rejected from MSc but admitted to BCL. Therefore I say it is a 'runners up' degree.

I see nothing offensive in my post to be honest, cheeky yes, but not offensive.

Of course they don't hire because of the degree, along with law graduates they hire engineers, biologists, historians etc. Do you think that many chambers prefer BCL students just because of its label? No, it's just a signalling mechanism saying they were taught properly.

7 people? Even I do not have such information, you must be a BCL student then. In any case, even if it is true, its a drop in a bucket and cannot represent the reality. I personally know 2 people who had offers for both programmes and chose MLF to BCL (and MCL by the way).

It is good they were rejected, it means that the (different) committees are doing a proper job and looking for people who really fit in.

I am a current MJur student. I like my programme, its great. However, to be fair I have to clarify some things here:

1. the MLF is perceived as the elite programme here. It is widespread knowledge here that it is more selective. But dont take my word for it, just check out the statistics published by the Law Faculty. I personally did apply but didnt get in!

2. It is administered by the Law School, not the Business School. Still I know that they mostly hang out at the Business School, if you ever come to Oxford, you will find out why.

3. They share the same exact courses with us, in which we sit together. The difference is that they do less law courses and instead have finance classes at the Business School. As far as I know they share the same electives with the Master in Finance and MBA.

3. It has great prestige among employers. I know for a fact from my friends who take the MLF, that from this years cohort for example at least 3 made it to major investment banks in London (im talking Goldman, Lazard etc). Others will start at magic circle firms in London. I know from 2 who have offers from Clifford. One guy has an offer from a hedge fund, others go into consulting.

In fact that is the most impressive part about the programme. Many of them did not have a finance background before they came here, or are only qualified in different jurisdictions. And yet they get offers from major investment banks and law firms in London. I want to see ANY other programme that can claim that!!

Also, just for illustration, Freshfields organizes a weekend recruitment event later this year. Applications open to Oxbridge and London Law Schools. Those guys are the only ones I know of who dont have to apply but can just sign up!! This programme is exceptionally well regarded by employers!!

I can personally guarantee who ever says anything else either doent know what he is talking about or is just angry for getting rejected. I understand, I was disappointed too. But I take it with honor and fairness!! "jsd" (who is member of llm-guide since 2009, what are you actually doing with your life mate, re-applying to llm's for 6 years know???) might want to do the same.

4. Lastly, everyone I talked to from the programme is totally happy with it!! I heared nothing bad about it ever.

In fact thats the reason why I signed up to llm guide just now. I saw this rediculous ill-informed comment and wanted to correct it first hand.

In summary: If you want to stay in law and work for magic circle in London, MLF is the way. If you want to move out of law into finance or consulting, MLF is the way. If you are just interested in finance and quantitative stuff, MLF is the way.

ps: everyone agrees that "MLF" is not so nice, too close to MiLF. I made fun with my friend about it. He said thats why they carry "MSc". However, most people here dont really feel its necessary to run around carrying that title like: look I went to Oxford. Thats kind of lame my friend.

I can personally guarantee who ever says anything else either doent know what he is talking about or is just angry for getting rejected. I understand, I was disappointed too. But I take it with honor and fairness!! "jsd" (who is member of llm-guide since 2009, what are you actually doing with your life mate, re-applying to llm's for 6 years know???) might want to do the same.

thank you Marta, finally someone did justice