Hi everyone,

I am an LLB student from the City University of Hong Kong keenly interested in applying to the BCL program at Oxford and would like to seek your valuable advice.

I shall be sending in my BCL/LLM applications at the end of 2005 as a graduating (3rd year LLB) student. The following is a profile of my LLB studies

A) I have a culmulative GPA of 3.85 and I anticipate that I graduate with first class honours in June 2006.
B) I have been granted a full scholarship for my LLB studies
C) I have a summer placement (this coming summer as a student completing 2nd year LLB) with a magic circle firm and another city firm.
D) I took part in the Philip C Jessup International Law Moot.
E) I expect to get good references from an associate professor who has an OX PhD and the Dean, both of whom are international lawyers.

I am hoping to seek your advice in respect of the followings:

1) What chances do I stand in obtaining an offer/conditional offer from OX?
2) I am also planning to apply to 3 other law schools for their LLM programs: Cambridge, Harvard and Yale. What chances do you think I stand in getting a place in these schools?
3) Does it make a different if I ended up getting 1st of first class?
4) Since I am not an LLB student from a very well known law school, will this fact count against me a lot for my applications?
5) Does an LLM/BCL add something significant to one's CV if one intends to practice as a (A) barrister in Hong Kong (B)solicitor with a city firm in Hong Kong?
6) When will the application materials usually be available from the Oxford/other law school's webpage? ( I am under the impression that the are still having the 2005 version on the web) I would like to start working on my apps ASAP.

Thank you for your kind assistance in advance.

Hi ,

You still have time for the applications. October would be the ideal time to apply.You have a good cv certainly!
U should get in if you present a good essay and application.

U seem a bit over-eager :)

The unis, esp. the English ones, won't have posted the application materials until September. Be sure you've got the right ones, and not the old version.

Donno about Harvard and Yale, since did not apply there, but I think your credentials would certainly be good enough for Oxbridge. As far as Yale is concerned, I would assume they would prefer smn older and with publications, since the aim of their LLM is to prepare law professors, not practitioners (you should consider this as well since you seem to head towards a career in private practice).

Yes, and the offer from oxbridge will certainly be conditional since you won't have obtained your diploma yet.

Dear Shiv,

Thank you for your prompt reply. I actually am wondering how I should draft my personal statement since I actually intend to call to the Hong Kong Bar right after my graduation. I am a bit worried whether the fact that I am not inclined into teaching in the early years of my career will count against my applications. What are your thoughts on that? Also, I am Chinese and hence have to take the IELTs. Now, I understand that Oxbridge masters-in-law degree entrance requirement is a score of 7.5 (0 to 9 scale). I am quite confident that I will get a 7.5 but am not so sure whether I will score a 9. Do you think it hurts a lot if I don't get a 9? (I might be taking my (first) IELTs and the TOEFL in July)

P.S I scored a 617 (paper based) in TOEFL 5 years ago while I was still in secondary school. I have never taken the TOEFL

Hi, I am from Southeast Asia and applied to (and received offers from) three of the unis you are interested in: Oxford, Cambridge and Harvard. I agree with Zelda that you are a tad bit over-eager :-), but in answer to your queries:

1. I think you stand a reasonably good chance of getting an offer from Oxford.
2. I think you stand a reasonably good chance of getting an offer from Cambridge and Harvard too, but Yale would be more difficult because they have a very small LLM class which is primarily catered for academics.
3. For Oxford and Cambridge, a first class degree and the individual marks are important. For Harvard (and all US law schools), your rank is also important, so it WOULD make a difference to Harvard if you were top in your graduating year since they specifically ask for your class rank on the form.
4. It would probably count against you slightly, but only if the applicant from the more well-known school is as good as you.
5. I cannot comment on how much the LLM helps you in practice, but I do know for a fact that Oxford, Cambridge and Harvard are very, very highly looked upon in Hong Kong generally. I have done quite a bit of research on this because I intend to work in Hong Kong as an international banking and finance lawyer.
6. The application materials should be out by October/November.

Good luck!

Dear Zelda,

Thank you very much for your reply.

Your said it right: I am really eager to go do the BCL - a young kid who is yearning walk out of his coconut shell to see the outside world. Please accept my apologies if I sounded a bit impolite / aggressive.

Further to what I have asked Shiv in the previous post, which I also would like to seek your honest and valuable advice, I actually have a few other worries and doubts regarding admission to Oxford.

Despite the fact that I am doing fine in the LLB program, my results in the Hong Kong A-levels (HKALE, which the GCE-AL equivalent, except it's more difficult I should say) is not good. That explains why I got into CityU rather than the other law school, which is seen to be more prestigious by locals in Hong Kong (we have a total of 2 law schools)

N.B: I used to be a science student, My HKALE results are:
ABCCCD (An "A" in English, "B" in Chinese and the others are science subjects
My HKCEE (O-levels equivalent) results are: AAAABBBCC

I am very worried that the following adverse factors will count against my application very much:

1) LLB is my first degree and I am young
2) I did not have good A-levels result
3) I am not doing my LLB in the "best" law school in Hong Kong
4) I don't have publications

May I share your genuine thoughts and would you mind giving me some guidance?

Thank you very much

Dear Kazaf,

Thank you for the detailed explanation that you have given me. When your post came in,I was just typing out a post to Zelda regarding those adverse factors that I worry will count towards against my application. May I also ask for your thought on those? Also, if I were to write in my personal statment that I intend to go into private practice (e.g. in the Hong Kong Bar, starting as a starving pupil), would that have little regard for me since I am not a prospective academic?

By the way, if come to Hong Kong and work in firm, contact me in advance, I will shall around the places and show you where to get the nicest yet cheapest accomodation~!

Please accept my apologies if I sounded a bit impolite / aggressive.

Despite the fact that I am doing fine in the LLB program, my results in the Hong Kong A-levels (HKALE, which the GCE-AL equivalent, except it's more difficult I should say) is not good. That explains why I got into CityU rather than the other law school, which is seen to be more prestigious by locals in Hong Kong (we have a total of 2 law schools)

1) LLB is my first degree and I am young
2) I did not have good A-levels result
3) I am not doing my LLB in the "best" law school in Hong Kong
4) I don't have publications

Yeah, and don't worry about you old TOEFL. It's not valid and won't appear anywhere.
As to getting top IELTS grade, it won't matter either: you just have to get a mark over the 7.5 threshhold. It is a way to measure your ability to study in English, and not to distinguish you from other applicants. Were applicants assessed in accordance with their English ability, Ox and Cam would only accept native speakers!

Thank you very much, Zelda. You are more than helpful.

Fallacy

1) LLB is my first degree and I am young
This is irrelevant and will not affect you.

2) I did not have good A-levels result
This should not affect you because as I recall, the application forms do not ask for them.

3) I am not doing my LLB in the "best" law school in Hong Kong
Since there are only two law schools in Hong Kong, I dont think this will affect you that much.

4) I don't have publications
Not many students have publications, so dont worry.

5) If I were to write in my personal statement that I intend to go into private practice (e.g. in the Hong Kong Bar, starting as a starving pupil), would that have little regard for me since I am not a prospective academic?
This will only affect your application to Yale, not at the other three.

I have actually visited Hong Kong three times (each time I lived at Hang Fa Chuen). I am going this summer as well to visit some friends. I really like Hong Kong and so I will request my MC firm in London to transfer me to Hong Kong as soon as possible after my training contract.

Good luck!

Fallacy - thanks for bringing up some very pertinent questions. I am also considering applying in end-05 myself.

Zelda/ Kazaf/ anyone else who's been through the apps process already - I have some qs.

Firstly, my background -
1. I am from India.
2. I have a LLB from the #1 law school here - not at the top of my class though.
3. I have worked for PricewaterhouseCoopers Tax & Legal for 2 years and am now working for a good commercial law firm.

My questions -
1. How much of weightage would work experience get in the apps process? How should i balance my references amongst my academic/ professional referees?
2. Since I intend to practice post-LLM, apart from Oxbridge and Harvard, are there any other law schools (in the US/ UK) that you would recommend? I am not looking for academic-oriented LLMs.
3. How important are publications to the LLM app?

Appreciate your help...

1. How much of weightage would work experience get in the apps process? How should i balance my references amongst my academic/ professional referees?
In my view, work experience is a factor that is taken into account, but not a major one. Academic results are far more important.

2. Since I intend to practice post-LLM, apart from Oxbridge and Harvard, are there any other law schools (in the US/ UK) that you would recommend? I am not looking for academic-oriented LLMs.
Avoid Yale then. In England - Oxbridge and any of the three London colleges would be good (UCL, LSE, King's - but note that UCL and King's would offer a broader range of subjects because of the inter-collegiate LLM). In the US - Harvard, Columbia and NYU are all very good for commercial practice.

3. How important are publications to the LLM app?
Again, they are helpful, but not terribly important.

Good luck.

Thanks Kazaf!

I was hoping my work ex would help, esp. because I will do a very specific practice-oriented course. I suppose I have to find out whats the position Univ to Univ...

Zelda/ others - any feedback?

I think Kazaf is right re work experience. The top schools (oxbridge, harvard) want those who have the highest grades. I think it's especially true of Oxbridge which tends to put most emphasis on academic results.

I think you should apply to schools like LSE, UCL, NYU. Their reputation is excellent, they offer a great variety of courses oriented at a future practitioner, not academic, and they ought to value the non-academic achievements of their students more.

Actually in reply to Zeldas thoughts that work experience is less important in Oxbridge I certainly found that while other colleges were concerned solely with the bottom line ie my results Cambridge took a more holistic approach and looked more at the fact that I have done some interesting things in law outside of college. I guess everyone's experience is different and I would wholly endorse her suggestion that its a good approach to apply to a number of universities. At best you'll get your first choice but that may not happen and its always good to have options if plan a fails.

What I meant is that top UK schools v. US schools tend to value academic achievements more; I've had the impression US schools are a bit more interested in your other achievements and look for diversity in students' background. This is a mere speculation, though, and I might be wrong.

Hi Zelda, Kazaf, Atyas and everyone,

I am sorry for being out of touch the last couple of days as I was away for a while.

Erm...I suddenly come up some questions and would like to ask you for advice:

1) Which colleges/how do I find out which colleges accept BCL students? How did you choose colleges or what is the wisest way to prioritize college preferences?

2) Is scholarship possible?

Many Thanks,
Fallacy

Hi Zelda, Kazaf, Atyas and everyone,

1) Which colleges/how do I find out which colleges accept BCL students? How did you choose colleges or what is the wisest way to prioritize college preferences?

2) Is scholarship possible?

Many Thanks,
Fallacy

you stand a good chance to enter oxford. an oxford prof told me that what they are looking for are strong and detailed recommendation letters from your referees. as for harvard, its a little hard to tell: they look for the 'X' factor that would distinguish you from the rest. you have to present yourself as someone uniquely talented who can contribute to the larger good. all the best!!