KCL LLM Grad


nkumar

Hi all,

I thought I would offer some help to those in the dark about UK LLM programs. I completed the KCL LLM in international business law for the 07-08 academic year (though not official as of yet because the results of my May exams do not come until November 08, and I am still writing my research essay due Sept. 1).

I cannot offer that much advice on which LLM to select, but one of my courses was a joint KCL/UCL course so I may be able to provide some comparision to the UCL program.

Here are the modules I took at KCL: (1) international Finance I and II, (2) international commercial arbitration, and (3) international business transactions II: substantive law.

By way of background, I am a US student with a JD from a US law schoool. So any US students with questions, feel free.

Hi all,

I thought I would offer some help to those in the dark about UK LLM programs. I completed the KCL LLM in international business law for the 07-08 academic year (though not official as of yet because the results of my May exams do not come until November 08, and I am still writing my research essay due Sept. 1).

I cannot offer that much advice on which LLM to select, but one of my courses was a joint KCL/UCL course so I may be able to provide some comparision to the UCL program.

Here are the modules I took at KCL: (1) international Finance I and II, (2) international commercial arbitration, and (3) international business transactions II: substantive law.

By way of background, I am a US student with a JD from a US law schoool. So any US students with questions, feel free.
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tagotra

Hey i've got an offer from KCL. I'm taking International Commercial Arbitration, International and comparative law of copyrights, International and comparative law of Trade Marks and Comparative Constitutional Laws... How are the subjects? ANd how are the professors?

Hey i've got an offer from KCL. I'm taking International Commercial Arbitration, International and comparative law of copyrights, International and comparative law of Trade Marks and Comparative Constitutional Laws... How are the subjects? ANd how are the professors?
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tagotra

I'm from India... Is it really difficult to write a dissertation? How are the exams? I mean whats the pattern?

I'm from India... Is it really difficult to write a dissertation? How are the exams? I mean whats the pattern?
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tagotra

Any other suggestions u want to give.... Plz do!! How to make it a gr8 experience? What all to do apart from academics? I mean extras?? Additional courses?

Any other suggestions u want to give.... Plz do!! How to make it a gr8 experience? What all to do apart from academics? I mean extras?? Additional courses?
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tagotra

And does KCL provide for placements?
Sorry for a volley of questions brother.....

And does KCL provide for placements?
Sorry for a volley of questions brother.....
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nkumar

International commercial arbitration was a mixed bag. The section on investment arbitration was amazing, but the section taught by Martin Hunter was extremely disorganized. We were told to expect around 13 mock hearings...we did 1! Dalhausian doesn't teacht the course (which I thought was a good thing), but Landau, Veeder, and Wordsworth do an amazing job and at this point may have a more reputable name.

As for job placement I would not rely on King's. They do very little and will admit that your search will depend on your ability to find the openings. Central and western europeans do very well in recruiting, but everyone else winds up struggling. I got my job through my own hard work and you will likely have to do the same.

International commercial arbitration was a mixed bag. The section on investment arbitration was amazing, but the section taught by Martin Hunter was extremely disorganized. We were told to expect around 13 mock hearings...we did 1! Dalhausian doesn't teacht the course (which I thought was a good thing), but Landau, Veeder, and Wordsworth do an amazing job and at this point may have a more reputable name.

As for job placement I would not rely on King's. They do very little and will admit that your search will depend on your ability to find the openings. Central and western europeans do very well in recruiting, but everyone else winds up struggling. I got my job through my own hard work and you will likely have to do the same.
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abt

i'm intending to take up a course by Dalhuisen (transnational and comparative commercial adn financial law) - was wondering if you have any comments on his teaching in general? he's listed as the course convenor for numerous LLM modules, and I"m wondering how he's going to teach all of them.

thanks!

i'm intending to take up a course by Dalhuisen (transnational and comparative commercial adn financial law) - was wondering if you have any comments on his teaching in general? he's listed as the course convenor for numerous LLM modules, and I"m wondering how he's going to teach all of them.

thanks!
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Anisha85

Hey Nkumar, em so glad u've offered to help us out. I am extremely confused abt the subjects I should opt for...I have tentatively decided to take Law of International Finance I, II and III taught by Ravi Tennekoon and International Commercial Arbitration. Who in ur experience are the professors who are extremely good and who are the ones we would rather avoid? What are the modules u had taken? Thanks so much...

Hey Nkumar, em so glad u've offered to help us out. I am extremely confused abt the subjects I should opt for...I have tentatively decided to take Law of International Finance I, II and III taught by Ravi Tennekoon and International Commercial Arbitration. Who in ur experience are the professors who are extremely good and who are the ones we would rather avoid? What are the modules u had taken? Thanks so much...
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nkumar

Tennekoon was a terrific professor in terms of knowledge base. His teaching style has two components. First he lectures once a week, and this is a real lecture. He has a power point presentation and more or less reads from the slides. Second, and this depends on the size of the class, you will have a seminar around once a month. Here you prepare legal memos on practical Int. finance fact patterns, and he engages and challenges your solutions. The seminars were the best part of the class, and the lectures leave something to be desired. You will need to write (or in my case type) really fast to get everything down during the lectures.

I left a comment before about commercial arbitration.

Dalhausian doesnt actually teach the arbitration class. It is taught by a range of impressive professors with bigger names than Dalh.. IE - Hunter, Landau, Veeder, and Wordsworth. In the end the class was a bit disorganized and I wound up reading forever because you never really had an understanding of what were the readings necessary for the exam. They supply you with a ton of material, but don't read it all - simply not enough time in the day.

As for Dalhausian's compartive international commercial law I sat for the first class but opted to switch classes. It is a very academic course without any real practical application. But those who took the class liked it.

Tennekoon was a terrific professor in terms of knowledge base. His teaching style has two components. First he lectures once a week, and this is a real lecture. He has a power point presentation and more or less reads from the slides. Second, and this depends on the size of the class, you will have a seminar around once a month. Here you prepare legal memos on practical Int. finance fact patterns, and he engages and challenges your solutions. The seminars were the best part of the class, and the lectures leave something to be desired. You will need to write (or in my case type) really fast to get everything down during the lectures.

I left a comment before about commercial arbitration.

Dalhausian doesnt actually teach the arbitration class. It is taught by a range of impressive professors with bigger names than Dalh.. IE - Hunter, Landau, Veeder, and Wordsworth. In the end the class was a bit disorganized and I wound up reading forever because you never really had an understanding of what were the readings necessary for the exam. They supply you with a ton of material, but don't read it all - simply not enough time in the day.

As for Dalhausian's compartive international commercial law I sat for the first class but opted to switch classes. It is a very academic course without any real practical application. But those who took the class liked it.
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abt

thanks nkumar. I think i will sit in on Dalhausian's class first then and see how it goes. i'm looking for a subject in which i can attempt a dissertation in, and it being academic might be a good thing... hmm. :-)

thanks nkumar. I think i will sit in on Dalhausian's class first then and see how it goes. i'm looking for a subject in which i can attempt a dissertation in, and it being academic might be a good thing... hmm. :-)
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Anisha85

Hey that seems really useful, thanks so much. So did u take up a job in UK or back home? Could u plz elaborate on how u went abt securing a job? Did u do inernships during the course? When do u apply for ur tc and how difficult is it to secure one? Wat do the big firms look for and things like that? Anything u could tell us would be mighty useful...

Hey that seems really useful, thanks so much. So did u take up a job in UK or back home? Could u plz elaborate on how u went abt securing a job? Did u do inernships during the course? When do u apply for ur tc and how difficult is it to secure one? Wat do the big firms look for and things like that? Anything u could tell us would be mighty useful...
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nkumar

I actually secured a job back in the US. The training contract application is very difficult for foreign students, and while possible, I would not recommend placing it as your number one strategy. There is a market in London for foreign trained and qualified lawyers so that may likely be your best bet. The training contract applications are for contracts around 2010, so unless you are planning for more coursework or your LPC, you will have to wait a while before any placement.

Internships during the course is something each individual has to work out on their own (with little if any help from career development). I found most UK firms almost hostile to the idea of internships during the school year. Since the TC's are so competitive they simply do their recruiting during the summer. I don't know anybody who did the LLM and was able to get an internship or work placement during the school year as a result of the LLM. Some already had jobs going in, but nobody got one while at King's without some previous connection.

The firm's seemed very interested in European qualified lawyers in recruiting from the LLM (Germans in particular).

I actually secured a job back in the US. The training contract application is very difficult for foreign students, and while possible, I would not recommend placing it as your number one strategy. There is a market in London for foreign trained and qualified lawyers so that may likely be your best bet. The training contract applications are for contracts around 2010, so unless you are planning for more coursework or your LPC, you will have to wait a while before any placement.

Internships during the course is something each individual has to work out on their own (with little if any help from career development). I found most UK firms almost hostile to the idea of internships during the school year. Since the TC's are so competitive they simply do their recruiting during the summer. I don't know anybody who did the LLM and was able to get an internship or work placement during the school year as a result of the LLM. Some already had jobs going in, but nobody got one while at King's without some previous connection.

The firm's seemed very interested in European qualified lawyers in recruiting from the LLM (Germans in particular).
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SID1

Dear nKumar,

Your assessment of procuring work placement/training contract seems very bleak, a fact attested by few others I know of. Nonetheless, how difficult is it to procure gainful employment with Corporates based in UK for a short period. Just so that I can recoup some spent money before coming back to India.


Dear nKumar,

Your assessment of procuring work placement/training contract seems very bleak, a fact attested by few others I know of. Nonetheless, how difficult is it to procure gainful employment with Corporates based in UK for a short period. Just so that I can recoup some spent money before coming back to India.

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nkumar

Unfortunately that will be a process you will need to figure out by contacting recruitment teams in the UK. It is not easy, and I would not expect to walk in and find a job without significant difficulty. The best option is if you are a foreign qualified attorney and can find work practicing that law in the UK. Without a qualifing degree I would not expect much, perhaps a job in compliance (or some other type of non-legal placement).

The assessment is bleak, but the UK legal market is extremely competitive. I don't mean to say it is impossible - as some of my friends were able to find jobs. But that is certainly not the norm.

Unfortunately that will be a process you will need to figure out by contacting recruitment teams in the UK. It is not easy, and I would not expect to walk in and find a job without significant difficulty. The best option is if you are a foreign qualified attorney and can find work practicing that law in the UK. Without a qualifing degree I would not expect much, perhaps a job in compliance (or some other type of non-legal placement).

The assessment is bleak, but the UK legal market is extremely competitive. I don't mean to say it is impossible - as some of my friends were able to find jobs. But that is certainly not the norm.
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prashbez


Dear nKumar,

Your assessment of procuring work placement/training contract seems very bleak, a fact attested by few others I know of. Nonetheless, how difficult is it to procure gainful employment with Corporates based in UK for a short period. Just so that I can recoup some spent money before coming back to India.



Sid,

The job market after the LLM is very bleak. Kumar has given you the right feedback. His feedback is substantiated by my friends in London, LLM graduates from India, recruitment consultants I've spoken to in UK and also by a number of the recruitment heads of the big law firms in UK.

You'll be really lucky to land a job in UK after your LLM. What will matter is your previous work experience and your LL.B marks and whether there is any demand for your work experience. I suggest you take a worst case scenario after the LLm and be mentally prepared to come back to India for a job.

<blockquote>
Dear nKumar,

Your assessment of procuring work placement/training contract seems very bleak, a fact attested by few others I know of. Nonetheless, how difficult is it to procure gainful employment with Corporates based in UK for a short period. Just so that I can recoup some spent money before coming back to India.

</blockquote>

Sid,

The job market after the LLM is very bleak. Kumar has given you the right feedback. His feedback is substantiated by my friends in London, LLM graduates from India, recruitment consultants I've spoken to in UK and also by a number of the recruitment heads of the big law firms in UK.

You'll be really lucky to land a job in UK after your LLM. What will matter is your previous work experience and your LL.B marks and whether there is any demand for your work experience. I suggest you take a worst case scenario after the LLm and be mentally prepared to come back to India for a job.
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SID1

Dear nKumar & Prash,

I completely agree with your honest assessment about the job scenario in UK. Landing a placement/tc would be brilliant but I am definitely not banking upon it. With the exponential spurt in economic growth in India, I believe reasonable work ex & a good LLM UK degree to boot should open up lot of avenues in India.

By the way, is there any part-time job in particular which is not dreary and pays relatively well.


Dear nKumar & Prash,

I completely agree with your honest assessment about the job scenario in UK. Landing a placement/tc would be brilliant but I am definitely not banking upon it. With the exponential spurt in economic growth in India, I believe reasonable work ex & a good LLM UK degree to boot should open up lot of avenues in India.

By the way, is there any part-time job in particular which is not dreary and pays relatively well.
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Anisha85

Hey guys, em a fresh grad so I have nothing to offer as work-ex! Ok this is slightly worrying...

Kumar, can u plz tell me why u chose King's and how King's is better the Queen Mary's? lately everyone I've been talking to seems to think that QMUL is better and it's been crazy trying to make the rite choice!

Hey guys, em a fresh grad so I have nothing to offer as work-ex! Ok this is slightly worrying...

Kumar, can u plz tell me why u chose King's and how King's is better the Queen Mary's? lately everyone I've been talking to seems to think that QMUL is better and it's been crazy trying to make the rite choice!
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nkumar

Anisha - I choose King's because it has a repuation in the US - more so than Queen Mary. Also I decided to take the LLM much later than the application deadlines for some of the more elite programs. From what I heard, Queen Mary has some form of an internship program, and King's of course has none. So if your sole goal is work placement Queen Mary MAY be the right choice. But I have no idea since I never went to the program.

Anisha - I choose King's because it has a repuation in the US - more so than Queen Mary. Also I decided to take the LLM much later than the application deadlines for some of the more elite programs. From what I heard, Queen Mary has some form of an internship program, and King's of course has none. So if your sole goal is work placement Queen Mary MAY be the right choice. But I have no idea since I never went to the program.
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SID1

Hello Anisha,

I assume you are an Indian & on that basis would certainly recommend Kings over QM for the sheer name recall value that Kings enjoys in India. Don't get me wrong, QM is a fine law school & from most accounts is more congenial, fun & friendly than the other UOL law schools. I hold an offer from QM & was sorely tempted to opt for it, but in the end I have decided to enroll myself in UCL. By the way, I doubt whether QM offers internship programs. In fact so far as I am aware none of the UOL law schools offer such programs.

Ultimately, it boils down to individual preferences & either way the quality of education would not suffer.


Hello Anisha,

I assume you are an Indian & on that basis would certainly recommend Kings over QM for the sheer name recall value that Kings enjoys in India. Don't get me wrong, QM is a fine law school & from most accounts is more congenial, fun & friendly than the other UOL law schools. I hold an offer from QM & was sorely tempted to opt for it, but in the end I have decided to enroll myself in UCL. By the way, I doubt whether QM offers internship programs. In fact so far as I am aware none of the UOL law schools offer such programs.

Ultimately, it boils down to individual preferences & either way the quality of education would not suffer.
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Anisha85

Hey Kumar, were u happy with ur decision to do an LLM from King's at the end of the one year or were u left looking for more? Was it satisfying in every way...like staff support, infrasructure, etc.?

Hey Kumar, were u happy with ur decision to do an LLM from King's at the end of the one year or were u left looking for more? Was it satisfying in every way...like staff support, infrasructure, etc.?
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