Thanks.

I guess he should apply in all cases as he does not have anything to lose!

I am asking about the chances no more.

Best

He should not. He doesn't stand a chance. If his credentials are really good, he should just wait, improve his toefl, and eventually apply Harvard next year.

I know 3 guys from my country who got in despite not meeting Harvard's TOEFL requirement (22, 23 speaking, the third one didn't even satisfy a general 100 requirement). If your application is otherwise strong, TOEFL won't be a problem.

I see. He is reading this post right now. His application is very strong. Let's try!

That's why he should wait. You are telling me he is a strong candidate. He would ruin his chances if he applied with a toefl score lower than 100.

I'm not telling you he's a strong candidate. I don't know that. What I'm saying is that IF his application is otherwise strong, TOEFL shouldn't be a problem. He might ruin his chances with a TOEFL score of 94 though. This is not to say that he must have at least 25 in each section in order to get in.

Other schools are less forgiving and strictly observe this requirement (e.g. Chicago). Harvard is definitely not one of them.

A few posts above you wrote the following:

"He has all credentials ( I believe) to apply to HLS except his TOEFL."

That's why I implied you consider him a strong candidate.

Secondly, Harvard does take into consideration the TOEFL score. Although a high toefl score doesn't get you into Harvard, a low score would probably kick you out.

It wasn't I who said that he had all credentials, but Peacemaker. I said that 3 people from my county, out of 5 who I know to have been accepted, didn't meet Harvard's TOEFL requirement and still managed to get in.

Thanks.

I guess he should apply in all cases as he does not have anything to lose!

I am asking about the chances no more.

Best

He should not. He doesn't stand a chance. If his credentials are really good, he should just wait, improve his toefl, and eventually apply Harvard next year.

I know 3 guys from my country who got in despite not meeting Harvard's TOEFL requirement (22, 23 speaking, the third one didn't even satisfy a general 100 requirement). If your application is otherwise strong, TOEFL won't be a problem.

I see. He is reading this post right now. His application is very strong. Let's try!

That's why he should wait. You are telling me he is a strong candidate. He would ruin his chances if he applied with a toefl score lower than 100.

I'm not telling you he's a strong candidate. I don't know that. What I'm saying is that IF his application is otherwise strong, TOEFL shouldn't be a problem. He might ruin his chances with a TOEFL score of 94 though. This is not to say that he must have at least 25 in each section in order to get in.

Other schools are less forgiving and strictly observe this requirement (e.g. Chicago). Harvard is definitely not one of them.

A few posts above you wrote the following:

"He has all credentials ( I believe) to apply to HLS except his TOEFL."

That's why I implied you consider him a strong candidate.

Secondly, Harvard does take into consideration the TOEFL score. Although a high toefl score doesn't get you into Harvard, a low score would probably kick you out.

It wasn't I who said that he had all credentials, but Peacemaker. I said that 3 people from my county, out of 5 who I know to have been accepted, didn't meet Harvard's TOEFL requirement and still managed to get in.

Apologizes. I didn't pay enough attention.
What were their toefl scores?

Thanks.

I guess he should apply in all cases as he does not have anything to lose!

I am asking about the chances no more.

Best

He should not. He doesn't stand a chance. If his credentials are really good, he should just wait, improve his toefl, and eventually apply Harvard next year.

I know 3 guys from my country who got in despite not meeting Harvard's TOEFL requirement (22, 23 speaking, the third one didn't even satisfy a general 100 requirement). If your application is otherwise strong, TOEFL won't be a problem.

I see. He is reading this post right now. His application is very strong. Let's try!

That's why he should wait. You are telling me he is a strong candidate. He would ruin his chances if he applied with a toefl score lower than 100.

I'm not telling you he's a strong candidate. I don't know that. What I'm saying is that IF his application is otherwise strong, TOEFL shouldn't be a problem. He might ruin his chances with a TOEFL score of 94 though. This is not to say that he must have at least 25 in each section in order to get in.

Other schools are less forgiving and strictly observe this requirement (e.g. Chicago). Harvard is definitely not one of them.

A few posts above you wrote the following:

"He has all credentials ( I believe) to apply to HLS except his TOEFL."

That's why I implied you consider him a strong candidate.

Secondly, Harvard does take into consideration the TOEFL score. Although a high toefl score doesn't get you into Harvard, a low score would probably kick you out.

It wasn't I who said that he had all credentials, but Peacemaker. I said that 3 people from my county, out of 5 who I know to have been accepted, didn't meet Harvard's TOEFL requirement and still managed to get in.

Apologizes. I didn't pay enough attention.
What were their toefl scores?

No problem.
Two of them were (barely) within Harvard's general requirement of 100, but with poor speaking section (22 and 23 respectively). The third one didn't even meet the general requirement, I can't recall what his exact score was.

Thanks.

I guess he should apply in all cases as he does not have anything to lose!

I am asking about the chances no more.

Best

He should not. He doesn't stand a chance. If his credentials are really good, he should just wait, improve his toefl, and eventually apply Harvard next year.

I know 3 guys from my country who got in despite not meeting Harvard's TOEFL requirement (22, 23 speaking, the third one didn't even satisfy a general 100 requirement). If your application is otherwise strong, TOEFL won't be a problem.

I see. He is reading this post right now. His application is very strong. Let's try!

That's why he should wait. You are telling me he is a strong candidate. He would ruin his chances if he applied with a toefl score lower than 100.

I'm not telling you he's a strong candidate. I don't know that. What I'm saying is that IF his application is otherwise strong, TOEFL shouldn't be a problem. He might ruin his chances with a TOEFL score of 94 though. This is not to say that he must have at least 25 in each section in order to get in.

Other schools are less forgiving and strictly observe this requirement (e.g. Chicago). Harvard is definitely not one of them.

A few posts above you wrote the following:

"He has all credentials ( I believe) to apply to HLS except his TOEFL."

That's why I implied you consider him a strong candidate.

Secondly, Harvard does take into consideration the TOEFL score. Although a high toefl score doesn't get you into Harvard, a low score would probably kick you out.

It wasn't I who said that he had all credentials, but Peacemaker. I said that 3 people from my county, out of 5 who I know to have been accepted, didn't meet Harvard's TOEFL requirement and still managed to get in.

Apologizes. I didn't pay enough attention.
What were their toefl scores?

No problem.
Two of them were (barely) within Harvard's general requirement of 100, but with poor speaking section (22 and 23 respectively). The third one didn't even meet the general requirement, I can't recall what his exact score was.

This is very surprising to me.

It is worth noting that Harvard is more flexible than other (lower rank, if I may notice) schools not only when it comes to TOEFL, but also in terms of work experience, extracurriculars etc.


Hi.

Thanks for your answers!

May I ask you one question about your friend who got accepted with a score less than 100? what was his total score?

Best,

It is worth noting that Harvard is more flexible than other (lower rank, if I may notice) schools not only when it comes to TOEFL, but also in terms of work experience, extracurriculars etc.

Hi guys,

Has anyone heard of any successful applicant who applied using IELTS in lieu of TOELF ? Understand that Harvard does not accept IELTS !

Hello NaSa19, I am afraid Harvard does not accept any TOEFL results. Unfortunately you cannot convert your results. Best you sit for an IELTS exam. If you have passed the TOEFL well your IELTS results will match. You will need a score of 100 to apply. Good luck!

Hello NaSa19, I am afraid Harvard does not accept any TOEFL results. Unfortunately you cannot convert your results. Best you sit for an IELTS exam. If you have passed the TOEFL well your IELTS results will match. You will need a score of 100 to apply. Good luck!

Hello NaSa19, I am afraid Harvard does not accept any TOEFL results. Unfortunately you cannot convert your results. Best you sit for an IELTS exam.

The bigger picture is not whether he can get in, but how well will he do once admitted. Since English is the language of the realm at US law schools, it is imperative that the you understand written and spoken English quite well. In addition you will be writing MANY papers. To attempt this without very good English skills is a total waste of your time and money.

I honestly don't think schools are strict enough in this area. You will spend far more time understanding the material you are given if you don't understand English incredibly well. For example in one class alone, I have 200 pages of reading to do EACH WEEK. This isn't simple newspaper reading, it is complex concepts and very specific terminology, jargon and acronyms I need to learn and understand. By "understand" I mean to understand it well enough that I can apply all the new information I just read about, combined with a class lecture, and then to write a 10 page paper on it or a 2 page essay response on a test.

Keep in mind that you will be competing for grades with a lot of other foreign students that come from countries where English is either a first on common 2nd language. In my country it was not. I did speak 3 other languages before learning English but none very similar to English; different alphabet and grammar.

Nothing prepared me for how much reading I would have to do. I read on average about 200-300 pages a week. My average class text book is 600-800 pages. I am taking 4-6 classes a session. That means I'll need to read anywhere from 2400-4800 pages of information in a school term. Are you, or your brother, really prepared for this?

Honestly 100 isn't high enough at a minimum level for most top schools. It should be at least 110. They want you to succeed, not fail. I see other, very bright students, struggling because their English isn't good enough but was "good enough" to get in.

Law isn't like math or chemistry where your English can be lacking and you can still do well. Law is all about reading, writing and speaking with great fluency, and to understand the nuances of a complex legal argument. I thought I was well prepared for US LLM, I can tell you I should have prepared even more. I want to excel, not just survive. A low TOEFL score means you will likely have to work hard just to survive...

three or four scores under the minimum does not matter in my opinion since TOEFL is a general test. Some people hate mathematics, geology, physics lectures... I used to have low scores if TOEFL is too way towards these topics. However, give me something about government actions, philosophy, psychology & sociology.... I would beat it..

Bottom line: A slight TOEFL score below the minimum does not necessarily make you suffering to survive...

In LL.M what matters is the your legal comp. not a silly topic about earth 10000 years old rocks presented in your TOEFL listening!

PEACE FOR ALL

There are a wide variety of topics you'll have to cover in school. Keep in mind that even a TOEFL score of 100 is likely less than what many Americans students would have while scored being in high school. So at a "graduate" level you would think the American/English speaking student to be at a higher level.

So in your classes at many schools you will be in people that are a more advanced level than you in English. It isn't like law is based on mathematics or science. It is based on understanding the language it is written in and the better you understand that language, and its nuances, the more effective you will be.

When you study different areas of law, it is important to understand a wide variety of subjects and have a very developed vocabulary. So you need to be good in all areas, not just some. While English is not my native language, I have done a vast amount of law in both English and my native language and did quite well on the TOEFL. I rocked it to put it mildly. I still feel I am a distinct disadvantage in class compared to native English speakers. The professors don't make allowances for someone's less than excellent grasp of English. Not to mention many exams have to be handwritten in English and are timed. How fast and effectively can you write in a foreign language that you didn't grow up speaking, reading and writing in? I type fairly quickly in English but to write by hand in English I am not near as fast.

These are all things you need to consider. It is a lot of work and you need to be prepared. I counted the pages I need to read for classes for next week and I'll need to read about 400 pages on this weekend to be prepared. This is not "light" reading. I'll also have to write 2 papers by next Friday for another 20 pages or so of very detailed, coherent, legal writing including citing references with footnotes.

Better to exceed the minimums in any area to get into a top law school in the US than to somehow slip in and have to struggle the entire time to keep from drowning. I am very thankful I have a high level of English proficiency or I would be drowning now. As it is, I am working very hard and have little free time.

Hello...

How are you doing my friend? Thanks for your elaborated ideas that enriched the discussion generally.

Some universities do not accept IELTS. They only accept TOEFL ( Harvard, Yale ,Stanford and Chicago...)....


But others...

Two years ago a friend of mine did not apply for those universities because of his low TOEFL score ( 90). He got 7.0 on IELTS and applied to Berkeley. Guess what? he is a S.J.D candidate there.

Berkeley = one of top ten US law schools as you know ( 8th now...)

Another friend:

- He passed TOEFL 4 times ( his scores 90 - 91 - 94- 92) if memory serves...

- His IELTS score is 7.0 Guess what? he is an LL.M student at University of Pennsylvania ( 7th......)

How did they make it? Berkeley and U of Penn ?

Still they did not meet 100 in TOEFL.

Bottom line? TOEFL is not the only (..................)......

We still could make it..

By the way. Why U of Penn ( an Ivy league Uni) and UC Berkeley accept IELTS? They still want 100 in TOEFL....

Why? how come they accept those who take 100 and over in TOEFL and 7.0 in IELTS?


Can I know your current LL.M university?

Best.

SLS

My point isn't about just getting in. It is about how much harder things are going to be for you if your language ability is not at a level it needs to be at.

Keep in mind, these scores, while they may appear arbitrary, are there for a reason. They don't want people attending school that don't have a high chance of success. The top 3 schools can pretty much pick anyone they want. While you may pick they school they ultimately pick YOU.

While the T14 schools are considered the "elite" schools I personally don't get caught up in what the status of a school is. On the other hand, there are definite tiers within the elite schools. So while Berkeley may be in the T14, it clearly is behind the tier that comprises Columbia, NYU, Chicago and they are behind YLS, HLS & SLS. Unfortunately a lot of this matters to employers a lot more than I think it should but that is how the system works here.

I am not saying you can't get into a school with lower TOEFL scores but getting 100 on the TOEFL is not that hard. I know I struggle at times trying to keep up with all the reading and writing because English isn't my primary language. I don't know about the workload at other schools but I am in classes with 1L, 2L and 3L's and having to do the same work, perform at the same level, etc.

Do you think the professor is going to teach at a lower level if you are not proficient in English? It doesn't happen here. Keep up or fall behind, it is nature's law. It is survival of the fittest. It is liking entering a race where you have almost no chance of success or at a minimum you are going to have to work MUCH harder and still unlikely to be competitive.

I look around at my classmates and I see how some of the struggle more than I do with English. I can't imagine how difficult it would be if my ability was closer about a 90 on the TOEFL. Why would you want to attend some of the best law schools in the world and be potentially handicapped by inadequate or insufficient language skills? It is a huge investment of your time and money. If you don't succeed, not only do you cost yourself this time and money but you cost someone else an opportunity that could have been here instead of you. By you, I don't mean you personally Peacemaker but you in general as to anyone reading this.

Even if you have great qualifications on about 10-15% of the best get accepted to the top 3 schools from those who apply. You would have to be incredibly exceptional in some other areas for them to consider you if you are lacking in TOEFL. That also raises the question, how can you write a great personal statement to even get in if your language abilities are weaker than what they would like to see. The personal statement is worth about 30% of your admission "score" so to speak. If you can't rock the TOEFL exam, how are you going to write a personal statement of such quality needed by yourself? Almost all schools forbid someone writing your personal statement for you and that could be grounds of expulsion later. I think most schools would notice if you have an incredibly well written personal statement yet your TOEFL was a 95...

I have a much better understanding into the screening process internally now for applicants. They really do look in detail at your qualifications and see if all things match so to speak.

Hello again. By the way, I am not applying to any law schools. I started this thread for someone else...

I respect your opinion. However, I just wanted to comment on that personal statement thing. My friend who scored 94 in TOEFL scored 27 in Writing alone! Do you think they'll suspect he did not write the personal statement himself? I guess not.

You should see things holistically....

Another doctor in my local law school graduated from Harvard LL,M class of 1998 and his English is not that perfect.

Another friend graduated from NLS LL.M class of 2014-2015.

I asked him once about how hard was it? A lot of work, he said. How was the language barrier? some students did not speak good English and they all graduated.

How so? People still can do it. Reading 400 pages in one week or during the week end is not that hard. Most LL.B student did so. They are ready for LL.M

And guess what, most international students do well and graduate LL.M ...

And it is obvious that most LL.M candidates in US law schools are international as you know...

Best.

There are exceptions to everything. Medicine isn't a good example depending on the language the person was common from. Often the medical terminology in English is often used in other languages or close enough to be understandable. Often it is based on Latin so there can be some commonality Same applies to tech.

In law not so much. For example just the word law is ley in Spanish, zakon (transliterated) in Russian, and Gesetz in German.

So your friend who had a 27 on writing must be really weak in the other areas. How was the listening part? Most lectures are spoken so if not strong there that will be an issue. My point is holistic. You need to be good in all areas. Just because you are weak doesn't mean you CAN'T succeed. Just that you will have to work harder and are at a disadvantage to your peers.

At SLS you aren't in LLM only classes. That is my point. You are taking classes with AMERICAN (mostly) JD students as well. There are not many special "LLM only" classes at Stanford. There are a few like Intro to American Law but for the most part you are taking a subset of the curricula that normal SLS JD students take. You are also mixed with other students from other disciplines as well for some projects.

For example with IBN (Int'l Business Negotiations) there are teams made up of law students, business students, etc. that work on international business negotiations vs. teams from other schools.

So to recap, I am not saying you can't get in, or won't succeed. You will clearly be at a disadvantage and have to work much harder. It is only common sense.

That person has a scholarship. Imagine him being accepted at Harvard or Stanford and going to I.e university number 50 or 66 in US new ranking?

Does that make any sense to you? If I were in his shoes, I would definitely go to Harvard or Stanford and would not be afraid. Not at all.

Best.

Nobody is saying don't go. GO to the best school you can get into. Just be prepared that you'll likely have to work harder than you planned. Again I am not talking about you personally Peacemaker.

I will try and use an analogy that might help other people. Think of it this way - you are a fairly accomplished amateur athlete. Now somehow you made it to the Olympics. It is imperative to compete at a very high level, possibly higher than you ever have before. Even the worst runner at the Olympics from one country could likely be better than the best runner from some other country. The competition at these schools it tremendous once you are in, especially Harvard, Columbia, NYU & Chicago.

Getting accepted is just the start. Since grading is done on a curve, even if you get 90 questions right out of 100, you could still get low marks. At least at SLS, people seem to be a bit less cutthroat about school and are a bit more willing to help each other. Sure there are those here that are willing to trample anybody in their way but they aren't great in number here. The bigger issue I see is how some people are treated differently depending more on what country they come from. There are clearly some countries that are looked upon more favorably by LLM students than other countries.

The bigger picture is not whether he can get in, but how well will he do once admitted. Since English is the language of the realm at US law schools, it is imperative that the you understand written and spoken English quite well. In addition you will be writing MANY papers. To attempt this without very good English skills is a total waste of your time and money.

I honestly don't think schools are strict enough in this area. You will spend far more time understanding the material you are given if you don't understand English incredibly well. For example in one class alone, I have 200 pages of reading to do EACH WEEK. This isn't simple newspaper reading, it is complex concepts and very specific terminology, jargon and acronyms I need to learn and understand. By "understand" I mean to understand it well enough that I can apply all the new information I just read about, combined with a class lecture, and then to write a 10 page paper on it or a 2 page essay response on a test.

Keep in mind that you will be competing for grades with a lot of other foreign students that come from countries where English is either a first on common 2nd language. In my country it was not. I did speak 3 other languages before learning English but none very similar to English; different alphabet and grammar.

Nothing prepared me for how much reading I would have to do. I read on average about 200-300 pages a week. My average class text book is 600-800 pages. I am taking 4-6 classes a session. That means I'll need to read anywhere from 2400-4800 pages of information in a school term. Are you, or your brother, really prepared for this?

Honestly 100 isn't high enough at a minimum level for most top schools. It should be at least 110. They want you to succeed, not fail. I see other, very bright students, struggling because their English isn't good enough but was "good enough" to get in.

Law isn't like math or chemistry where your English can be lacking and you can still do well. Law is all about reading, writing and speaking with great fluency, and to understand the nuances of a complex legal argument. I thought I was well prepared for US LLM, I can tell you I should have prepared even more. I want to excel, not just survive. A low TOEFL score means you will likely have to work hard just to survive...