LLM vs. NY Bar


yes, the QLTT he's referring too is offered by the law society of england and wales to commonlaw trained lawyers w/ at least 2 yrs post-admission experience in their qualifying jurisdiction e.g., US, australia etc

i did it last yr in los angeles - it's a an easy exam compared to a US state bar exam, and it's open book. however, the reality is that if you are good enough to get a job in the UK then you really don't need the QLTT, and lawyers w/ quality experience are more likely to land jobs w/ caliber firms in london, even w/out the QLTT, than those who have passed the QLTT but only worked for smaller firms or in government.

believe me, i know because i've been there - got it all: LLB, LLM, JD, 2 US bar exams passed, and now the QLTT - and none of them have really proved that useful apart from the JD which had enabled me to at least gain a license to practise law.

Thanks Student02. Lets keep our fingers crossed that India opens up sooner.
One question - with QLTT u mentioned above, can one practice in UK?
yes, the QLTT he's referring too is offered by the law society of england and wales to commonlaw trained lawyers w/ at least 2 yrs post-admission experience in their qualifying jurisdiction e.g., US, australia etc

i did it last yr in los angeles - it's a an easy exam compared to a US state bar exam, and it's open book. however, the reality is that if you are good enough to get a job in the UK then you really don't need the QLTT, and lawyers w/ quality experience are more likely to land jobs w/ caliber firms in london, even w/out the QLTT, than those who have passed the QLTT but only worked for smaller firms or in government.

believe me, i know because i've been there - got it all: LLB, LLM, JD, 2 US bar exams passed, and now the QLTT - and none of them have really proved that useful apart from the JD which had enabled me to at least gain a license to practise law.

<blockquote>Thanks Student02. Lets keep our fingers crossed that India opens up sooner.
One question - with QLTT u mentioned above, can one practice in UK? </blockquote>
quote
coco
Under, I admire your tenacity in acquiring all those qualifications. There is something I want to challenge you on. Why is it that some many Canadians are recruited to big firms in NYC after graduating with an LLB (not JD) from Osgoode Hall and University of Toronto? There are recruiters who specialize in matching these grads to big NY firms. Maybe the LLB in Canada is more respected than England? Not sure, but what I do know is that it's by no means difficult to find work at a top firm in NY if you did a well respected LLB in Canada. Not only that, but the firms pay for BARBri review.
Under, I admire your tenacity in acquiring all those qualifications. There is something I want to challenge you on. Why is it that some many Canadians are recruited to big firms in NYC after graduating with an LLB (not JD) from Osgoode Hall and University of Toronto? There are recruiters who specialize in matching these grads to big NY firms. Maybe the LLB in Canada is more respected than England? Not sure, but what I do know is that it's by no means difficult to find work at a top firm in NY if you did a well respected LLB in Canada. Not only that, but the firms pay for BARBri review.
quote
IntLaw
Coco ,
Have you done LLB from Canada? How is the job market for Canadian LLBs in 1) Canada 2) US. (From your above post seems like if I go to the right school in Canada, might be possible to find job in US. Do u have first hand experience abt the statistics?

UEL,
"believe me, i know because i've been there - got it all: LLB, LLM, JD, 2 US bar exams passed, and now the QLTT - and none of them have really proved that useful apart from the JD which had enabled me to at least gain a license to practise law."
That is a lot of time, money, energy and tenacity. Would be very interesting and useful to know ur views abt the above. Is ur LLB from Canada?

Thanks.
Coco ,
Have you done LLB from Canada? How is the job market for Canadian LLBs in 1) Canada 2) US. (From your above post seems like if I go to the right school in Canada, might be possible to find job in US. Do u have first hand experience abt the statistics?

UEL,
"believe me, i know because i've been there - got it all: LLB, LLM, JD, 2 US bar exams passed, and now the QLTT - and none of them have really proved that useful apart from the JD which had enabled me to at least gain a license to practise law."
That is a lot of time, money, energy and tenacity. Would be very interesting and useful to know ur views abt the above. Is ur LLB from Canada?

Thanks.
quote
coco
I was making the point that it's not a waste of time doing the NY Bar with only an LLB. Many in this forum said those without JD's are more or less doomed in the US market. The fact Canadians do it with just an LLB is reason to believe that there's hope. I received my LLB form the UK, so perhaps that's not as effective as a Canadian one... in this respect maybe a US LLM would help somewhat.
I was making the point that it's not a waste of time doing the NY Bar with only an LLB. Many in this forum said those without JD's are more or less doomed in the US market. The fact Canadians do it with just an LLB is reason to believe that there's hope. I received my LLB form the UK, so perhaps that's not as effective as a Canadian one... in this respect maybe a US LLM would help somewhat.
quote
richardvf
Intl Law,

The portion that you quoted from the Cal Bar website is for applicants who received their legal education in the US. For applicants who received their legal education outside the US, different requirements apply. For this information, access the Cal Bar website at www.calbar.org. Once you are on the main page, click on the admissions link located on the right side of the page. Once on the admissions page, scroll down past the heading General Information until you reach the linlk for foreign applicants.
Intl Law,

The portion that you quoted from the Cal Bar website is for applicants who received their legal education in the US. For applicants who received their legal education outside the US, different requirements apply. For this information, access the Cal Bar website at www.calbar.org. Once you are on the main page, click on the admissions link located on the right side of the page. Once on the admissions page, scroll down past the heading General Information until you reach the linlk for foreign applicants.
quote
my LLB is from the UK - southampton uni, which was a respectable uni when i went to it and i'm sure it still is. i then did the LLM, then JD, and after 2 yrs sat the QLTT.

i have no ideas about anything canadian, so can't respond.

i do know that the UK LLB is regarded as merely an undergraduate degree in the US - which of course it is, and probably slightly less regarded than an undergraduate degree in a non-legal subject which most US law students have. im my op, very useful to have a non law bachelor's degree since it keeps more doors open.

seriously, it's hard enough getting a job w/ a quality firm anywhere in the US (apart from north dakota etc i suppose) w/ a full JD, let alone an LLM or an LLB. i can't see a large US firm hiring a 21 yr old british kid w/ just 3 yrs of post high school education vis-a-vis your standard 25-35 yr old US grad w/ 7 yrs of uni and graduate school.
my LLB is from the UK - southampton uni, which was a respectable uni when i went to it and i'm sure it still is. i then did the LLM, then JD, and after 2 yrs sat the QLTT.

i have no ideas about anything canadian, so can't respond.

i do know that the UK LLB is regarded as merely an undergraduate degree in the US - which of course it is, and probably slightly less regarded than an undergraduate degree in a non-legal subject which most US law students have. im my op, very useful to have a non law bachelor's degree since it keeps more doors open.

seriously, it's hard enough getting a job w/ a quality firm anywhere in the US (apart from north dakota etc i suppose) w/ a full JD, let alone an LLM or an LLB. i can't see a large US firm hiring a 21 yr old british kid w/ just 3 yrs of post high school education vis-a-vis your standard 25-35 yr old US grad w/ 7 yrs of uni and graduate school.
quote
coco
good points, I'm 36 have a BA from U of Toronto and an LLB from U of London. Older, but (hopefully) wiser ;)
good points, I'm 36 have a BA from U of Toronto and an LLB from U of London. Older, but (hopefully) wiser ;)
quote
Cindy
To Coco,

I read a few of your posts and I think you made the right choice! Good luck!

To Underemployedlawyer,

I tried to sent you a personal message. I do not know it you got it. Here, I will summarize the content of it:

It is about your saying that one needs to do its LLM at a top-10 schools in the USNews ranking to have a chance to find a job in a big firm.
Then if I understood you well, taking Berkeley last year (which was outside of the circle ot the top 10) was not a good option regarding a job in a big firm. Whereas, now, because it is ranking number 8, it is ok. I am a little bit puzzled.
Could you also tell me if for you a LLM in Georgetown is not a good option?

I thank you very much for your answer.
To Coco,

I read a few of your posts and I think you made the right choice! Good luck!

To Underemployedlawyer,

I tried to sent you a personal message. I do not know it you got it. Here, I will summarize the content of it:

It is about your saying that one needs to do its LLM at a top-10 schools in the USNews ranking to have a chance to find a job in a big firm.
Then if I understood you well, taking Berkeley last year (which was outside of the circle ot the top 10) was not a good option regarding a job in a big firm. Whereas, now, because it is ranking number 8, it is ok. I am a little bit puzzled.
Could you also tell me if for you a LLM in Georgetown is not a good option?

I thank you very much for your answer.
quote
berkely and georgetown are both renowned schools - i'm not sure of the ranking


To Coco,

I read a few of your posts and I think you made the right choice! Good luck!

To Underemployedlawyer,

I tried to sent you a personal message. I do not know it you got it. Here, I will summarize the content of it:

It is about your saying that one needs to do its LLM at a top-10 schools in the USNews ranking to have a chance to find a job in a big firm.
Then if I understood you well, taking Berkeley last year (which was outside of the circle ot the top 10) was not a good option regarding a job in a big firm. Whereas, now, because it is ranking number 8, it is ok. I am a little bit puzzled.
Could you also tell me if for you a LLM in Georgetown is not a good option?

I thank you very much for your answer.
berkely and georgetown are both renowned schools - i'm not sure of the ranking


<blockquote>To Coco,

I read a few of your posts and I think you made the right choice! Good luck!

To Underemployedlawyer,

I tried to sent you a personal message. I do not know it you got it. Here, I will summarize the content of it:

It is about your saying that one needs to do its LLM at a top-10 schools in the USNews ranking to have a chance to find a job in a big firm.
Then if I understood you well, taking Berkeley last year (which was outside of the circle ot the top 10) was not a good option regarding a job in a big firm. Whereas, now, because it is ranking number 8, it is ok. I am a little bit puzzled.
Could you also tell me if for you a LLM in Georgetown is not a good option?

I thank you very much for your answer.
</blockquote>
quote
Cindy
To underemployedlawyer:

Actually in the USNews ranking, Georgetown is 14 and was also 14 last year. It is not in the top-ten.
To underemployedlawyer:

Actually in the USNews ranking, Georgetown is 14 and was also 14 last year. It is not in the top-ten.
quote
angage
Hi Coco.
Just wanted to let you know. The Canadian LLB degrees are considered post graduate and the Australian LLB degrees are considered undergraduate qualifications. I attended law school in Australia and was afforded the opportunity to get the Juris Doctor degree from my school. A lot of the Canadian students are faced with the same problem as you and I are... getting licensed to practise law. LLB and/or JD are basically the same thing... the US phased out their LLB degree programs around the late 60s and/or early 70s due to the lobbying efforts of the ABA and military lawyers.
Passing the NY bar or any state bar is going to the be key for us [US citizens educated in law outside the US]. If you decide to get the LLM it is better to specialise and no go for a generalist LLM... because most JD programs are considered generalist.
If you are looking for a cheap LLM program... check out Loyol Marymount University... it's only $14K. And you get to live in Italy! Good luck with the NY Bar too!
Hi Coco.
Just wanted to let you know. The Canadian LLB degrees are considered post graduate and the Australian LLB degrees are considered undergraduate qualifications. I attended law school in Australia and was afforded the opportunity to get the Juris Doctor degree from my school. A lot of the Canadian students are faced with the same problem as you and I are... getting licensed to practise law. LLB and/or JD are basically the same thing... the US phased out their LLB degree programs around the late 60s and/or early 70s due to the lobbying efforts of the ABA and military lawyers.
Passing the NY bar or any state bar is going to the be key for us [US citizens educated in law outside the US]. If you decide to get the LLM it is better to specialise and no go for a generalist LLM... because most JD programs are considered generalist.
If you are looking for a cheap LLM program... check out Loyol Marymount University... it's only $14K. And you get to live in Italy! Good luck with the NY Bar too!
quote
gkh_2005
I think it is possible to take the New York Bar exam with only a LL.B Degree from India. Please check the New York Bar website for more details.

I think doing a LL.M from a U.S. University, helps foreign lawyers to get basic grounding in U.S. Laws, since there is a compulsory coursework in Perspectives in American Legal system and get to take courses in American Sales Law,Contracts etc.
I think it is possible to take the New York Bar exam with only a LL.B Degree from India. Please check the New York Bar website for more details.

I think doing a LL.M from a U.S. University, helps foreign lawyers to get basic grounding in U.S. Laws, since there is a compulsory coursework in Perspectives in American Legal system and get to take courses in American Sales Law,Contracts etc.

quote
Intl Law,

The portion that you quoted from the Cal Bar website is for applicants who received their legal education in the US. For applicants who received their legal education outside the US, different requirements apply. For this information, access the Cal Bar website at www.calbar.org. Once you are on the main page, click on the admissions link located on the right side of the page. Once on the admissions page, scroll down past the heading General Information until you reach the linlk for foreign applicants.



I read it in detail and my understanding is that in addition to your LLB , on emust also have done 4 yrs at a US school OR completed the LLM.........am I not reading it correctly?
<blockquote>Intl Law,

The portion that you quoted from the Cal Bar website is for applicants who received their legal education in the US. For applicants who received their legal education outside the US, different requirements apply. For this information, access the Cal Bar website at www.calbar.org. Once you are on the main page, click on the admissions link located on the right side of the page. Once on the admissions page, scroll down past the heading General Information until you reach the linlk for foreign applicants. </blockquote>


I read it in detail and my understanding is that in addition to your LLB , on emust also have done 4 yrs at a US school OR completed the LLM.........am I not reading it correctly?
quote
richardvf
I think you need the equivalent of 2 years of undergraduate studies and 4 years of law study in total. All this education can be completed in your home country. However, if you are a licensed lawyer in your home country, you are eligible to take the California bar exam without any further legal education. Probably would be easier to qualify to take the California bar by becoming a lawyer in your home country rather than trying to meet the California Bar education requirements, especially if you only have a 3 or 4 year undergraduate LL.B.
I think you need the equivalent of 2 years of undergraduate studies and 4 years of law study in total. All this education can be completed in your home country. However, if you are a licensed lawyer in your home country, you are eligible to take the California bar exam without any further legal education. Probably would be easier to qualify to take the California bar by becoming a lawyer in your home country rather than trying to meet the California Bar education requirements, especially if you only have a 3 or 4 year undergraduate LL.B.
quote
adavid
Dear All,

I have sat here reading all the threads on this topic and many things come to mind. I am an Australia completing my LLB, and will work in the US upon completion. Many people become so concerned about how many degrees they hold, what rankind a school is, how flooded the market may be, what disadvantages they may be under etc. The bottom line is that if you want to work in the US, regardless of your what kind of degree you hold, then you will if you want to. Determination and tenacity will count for much more than an LLB, JD, LLM's and all the rest put together. I tend to agree with CoCo. The reason I got into law school was that I wanted to practice law,..and I will. That means that I need to get my legal education, and get busy knocking down doors, and remaining focused. This is something that they do not teach you at law school. To not be so concerned with the factors that you cannot control. Before some of you jump to the conclusion that I am ignorant, im not. Many Australians and common law LLB holders have taken the same path that I will take, and have done so successfully. I have done my research and are focused. Dont drown in the facors such as competition etc.
Dear All,

I have sat here reading all the threads on this topic and many things come to mind. I am an Australia completing my LLB, and will work in the US upon completion. Many people become so concerned about how many degrees they hold, what rankind a school is, how flooded the market may be, what disadvantages they may be under etc. The bottom line is that if you want to work in the US, regardless of your what kind of degree you hold, then you will if you want to. Determination and tenacity will count for much more than an LLB, JD, LLM's and all the rest put together. I tend to agree with CoCo. The reason I got into law school was that I wanted to practice law,..and I will. That means that I need to get my legal education, and get busy knocking down doors, and remaining focused. This is something that they do not teach you at law school. To not be so concerned with the factors that you cannot control. Before some of you jump to the conclusion that I am ignorant, im not. Many Australians and common law LLB holders have taken the same path that I will take, and have done so successfully. I have done my research and are focused. Dont drown in the facors such as competition etc.
quote
fg
Yes, adavid, tenacity and positive thinking does count for a lot. However, for those who aren't Australian (and cannot qualify for the E3 (Iraqi War) Visa), there is much luck involved. I have three friends who are already working at commercial firms in Manhattan on J and F visas who are getting kicked out of the country in August because they did not win this year's H1B visa lottery. Their only option is to leave the country (and their apartments, girlfriends, clients etc) for one year and reapply. I also know another couple of people who had jobs lined up at Manhattan firms and didn't get selected for the H1B. They are stuck in their hometowns.
So your post is simplistic and a little naive.
Yes, adavid, tenacity and positive thinking does count for a lot. However, for those who aren't Australian (and cannot qualify for the E3 (Iraqi War) Visa), there is much luck involved. I have three friends who are already working at commercial firms in Manhattan on J and F visas who are getting kicked out of the country in August because they did not win this year's H1B visa lottery. Their only option is to leave the country (and their apartments, girlfriends, clients etc) for one year and reapply. I also know another couple of people who had jobs lined up at Manhattan firms and didn't get selected for the H1B. They are stuck in their hometowns.
So your post is simplistic and a little naive.
quote
adavid
Visas? I thought we were talking about education. Anyway, before you change the subject and call me naive, the E3 Visa (possibly linked to free trade agreements between AUS and USA, ..not the war) does not apply to me because my wife is from the US. Im sorry that it is a different situation for many, however, I suggest to revise my last post and consider that this is exactly the point I am trying to make. People get uneccessarily bogged down with these issues like how long you can stay in the country, even if you get in. Whats the point? The US is not that exciting. At the risk of sounding "simplistic" I will add another point. If you want to work there, work as hard as you can to get a position and to stay there. Otherwise, if its all two difficult then you've really answered your own problem.
Visas? I thought we were talking about education. Anyway, before you change the subject and call me naive, the E3 Visa (possibly linked to free trade agreements between AUS and USA, ..not the war) does not apply to me because my wife is from the US. Im sorry that it is a different situation for many, however, I suggest to revise my last post and consider that this is exactly the point I am trying to make. People get uneccessarily bogged down with these issues like how long you can stay in the country, even if you get in. Whats the point? The US is not that exciting. At the risk of sounding "simplistic" I will add another point. If you want to work there, work as hard as you can to get a position and to stay there. Otherwise, if its all two difficult then you've really answered your own problem.
quote
gkh_2005
Hi adavid,

Your blog is in a positive direction. It has given a lot of encoragement to me. I am a Lawyer from India and completed my LL.M., from a top tier University in US. I tried really hard to get a job and ultimately succeeded in finding one, albeit at a low salary, however, good to start a career in the U.S. I appeared for the New York Bar in Feb, 2007 and flunked by few points(got 639/1000; passing you need 665/1000). I am planning to take the bar again in July, 2007 and hope to clear it.

I think it is a case of "try try, till you succeed", to find a job in the US.
Hi adavid,

Your blog is in a positive direction. It has given a lot of encoragement to me. I am a Lawyer from India and completed my LL.M., from a top tier University in US. I tried really hard to get a job and ultimately succeeded in finding one, albeit at a low salary, however, good to start a career in the U.S. I appeared for the New York Bar in Feb, 2007 and flunked by few points(got 639/1000; passing you need 665/1000). I am planning to take the bar again in July, 2007 and hope to clear it.

I think it is a case of "try try, till you succeed", to find a job in the US.
quote
adavid
gkh,

Great to hear that you have the focus to get back up and try again. You obviously have the ability to pass it by the sounds of your score. It's also encouraging to know that there are people out there that are willing to take a job starting at a lower salary range so that they can actually begin their career and put their ego aside. Many people fail to make the cut the first time and then go ahead and flourish in their careers. Just do it.
gkh,

Great to hear that you have the focus to get back up and try again. You obviously have the ability to pass it by the sounds of your score. It's also encouraging to know that there are people out there that are willing to take a job starting at a lower salary range so that they can actually begin their career and put their ego aside. Many people fail to make the cut the first time and then go ahead and flourish in their careers. Just do it.

quote
gkh_2005
Hi adavid,

You are absolutely right, in my case. I worked as Manager- Legal in a reputed German MNC in India in their Corporate Legal Dept., as Manager- Legal for about 8 years. Having done that, I did not flinch a bit, about taking a job for a low salary. I knew that this is a foreign country and had to start my career somewhere.
Hi adavid,

You are absolutely right, in my case. I worked as Manager- Legal in a reputed German MNC in India in their Corporate Legal Dept., as Manager- Legal for about 8 years. Having done that, I did not flinch a bit, about taking a job for a low salary. I knew that this is a foreign country and had to start my career somewhere.
quote

Reply to Post

Related Law Schools

Berkeley, California 1154 Followers 557 Discussions
Washington, District of Columbia 999 Followers 908 Discussions

Other Related Content

DAJV to Host an LL.M. Day in Cologne on October 28

News Sep 10, 2019

Hot Discussions