I am 22 and will graduate this year as the best student ever of a top portuguese law school, but probably unknown in the U.S... I applied to Yale, Harvard, Chicago and NYU. I really prefer Yale, as I want to pursue teaching and research. My GPA is 3.8, my TOEFL score is 293 and I have some professional experience (among other things, I did some part-time consultancy work for OECD on "PPP and multilateral surveillance among African developing countries"). I hope to be admitted but I'm affraid being so young might be a problem... and I stressed quite clearly in all the applications that my interests are of the scholarly type. In fact, my personal statements are more like research agendas... What chances do you think I have, especially concerning Yale?

The best student ever of a top law school ?? Whoaoaoa !!

"He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good." Confucius

More seriously, we're not the Yale Admission Board. Many criteria are taken into account (grades, letters of recommendation, professional experience, extra-curricular activities, etc.).

Fair reply... but did you notice I said it is a top PORTUGUESE law school probably UNKNOWN in the US? First of all, it is a top law school in Portugal; secondly, it is not Harvard. And yes... I am the best student ever... it is really not a question of modesty or not, it is a matter of GPA (hey, I never said I'm the most intelligent fellow or something of the sort...). In fact, I don't believe that people can be fully evaluated from the standpoint of their academic records, but the fact remains: what other objective measure? I tried to do my best in the statements and so because I expect to be competing with other "best students ever", probably comming from highly appreciated institutions. Portugal is a small country!

Anyway, I am quite aware that nobody here is from de Office :-) I just wanted to hear a serious opinion from you guys...

Regards!

Hi gar33:

First, congrats over your excellent GPA and toefl score.You must be an oustanding student in Portugal.To be honest, if I were you(it's too late now!) I would await some time before applying to US Top Law schools in order to gain some work experience after graduating.Remenber, it's about masters, not a JD program. If you would add some real work experience I positive your odds would be very, very high.Anyways,maybe I'm wrong(applications are age blind)and you will be accepted in a top law school where you did apply(if it's the case, please, let me know because I have friend in the pretty same situation).Again, congrats and good luck!

Relax. Of all factors age probably matters the least. I was the youngest in my class at 22. But there are several people who are in the 23-25 range.

Congratulations on your accomplishments! You are a brilliant student with lots of success to come along. Would you mind telling me your secret for attaining so high a Toefl Score? I mean, you almost got 300!!! That's very impressive.!!!

I think you have very very good chances. I am glad I am not a portuguese applicant from your law school. Yale will be the toughest one. You are competing not only with the best from Portugal but also the best from Europe. Did you get a letter from your law school / professor stating that you are the best GPA ever? That might help...

On the Toefl score, my understanding is that the Toefl is not a criterion to rank candidates. They just want to eliminate the applicants who will not understand the classes. That is all. I have many friends who scored b/w 290 and 300.

Good luck!

Than you guys...

My TOEFL score is not that impressive Roberto. Many people accomplish similar results. I understand the TOEFL to be the most stupid exam in the world and I don't believe it is a good measure of your ability to speak and write fluently in english. I know a chinese guy that got 290 in spite of his terrible english (of course, he is very smart, otherwise it would've been impossible). You should try some exams from the Princeton Review TOEFL CD. But hey: the TOEFL is certainly not the most important issue. If you have a low score, they will just ignore you; if you have a high score, they will just take it as a minimum requirement. It works as a necessary condition, not as part of a sufficient one, to be accepted in Yale...

Hey Vakil, thank you for your kind words! As far as I know, you're at YLS so good luck with your studies and hope to see you in August...

Did you get a letter from your law school / professor stating that you are the best GPA ever? That might help...

Yes I think so. I dind't read the letters because I signed the waiver but both my recommenders told me they insisted on that topic. One of them, probably the most reliable from YLS standpoint (he was a visiting professor there once) even wrote down, or so he told me, that I was one of the two or three best students he ever had, including graduate and doctoral students from LSE, Oxford, Harvard, etc. But you never know unless you see it with your own eyes and I didn't...

I was also lucky to meet in Lisbon, after a conference in my school, a guy named John Gardner who is Professor of Jurisprudence at Oxford and was a visiting professor at yale last year. I can't figure why (really...) but after a question during his lecture and five minutes of conversation after it, he told me he would love to write a recommendation letter himself. As he told me: "That will really help you!". He was very kind, although I still can't figure why :-)

Good luck to you too Paul. I hope to see you soon!

I think the toefl score does matter. Many top universities announce the admitted students toefl score average on their websites, and it's frequently 280 or more. Even if you don't give a dime about this exam, you may have to reluctanctly re-sit for it in order to increase your chances of gaining admittance. Other factors do matter as well but i think the results are in no way less telling than other criterias. As to me, i also don't care much about the Toefl, I didn't prepare well for it as i just receive the ETS Prep CD only 2 days before the test date and didn't review it consistently; notwithstanding this i managed to attain very good scores on each sub-section, to my surprise.

Hi Gar,
I am more or less in the same position as you. Best of my year at a well-known dutch law school, internship at UN, some publications, some research-assistantships and i am the elected student member in the faculty board. However, I am only graduating this year and don't have any work experience.
My career purposes are like yours as well; I want to engage in research and my personal statements were also some sort of research agenda.
Also, I have a recommendation letter from a prof who used to be at harvard. But he also told me that my chances might be small because of my age. I gave it a shot anyway and now I will just have to wait. I applied to 7 law schools and so far I have already been accepted to Upenn and Georgetown. So apparently they didnt care about my age.
The problematic thing however, is that I learned that once you get rejected at a school like harvard your chances to get in some other year are very small.
Well, can do nothing but wait and see.

I don't understand the purpose of this post : if you're the "best student ever of a top law school" in your country and have an outstanding record, then your chances are very good. What is there to discuss about and what else is there to say ?

Hi Gar,
I am more or less in the same position as you. Best of my year at a well-known dutch law school, internship at UN, some publications, some research-assistantships and i am the elected student member in the faculty board. However, I am only graduating this year and don't have any work experience. .

I don't understand the purpose of this post : if you're the "best student ever of a top law school" in your country and have an outstanding record, then your chances are very good. What is there to discuss about and what else is there to say ?

I think the toefl score does matter. Many top universities announce the admitted students toefl score average on their websites, and it's frequently 280 or more. Even if you don't give a dime about this exam, you may have to reluctanctly re-sit for it in order to increase your chances of gaining admittance. Other factors do matter as well but i think the results are in no way less telling than other criterias. As to me, i also don't care much about the Toefl, I didn't prepare well for it as i just receive the ETS Prep CD only 2 days before the test date and didn't review it consistently; notwithstanding this i managed to attain very good scores on each sub-section, to my surprise.

I respect your views but I have friends who went to Harvard, Stanford and Yale and I had the chance to meet professors from the admissions committee of some top schools. They were unanimous: after a certain score, TOEFL is not important. When you are short-listed to these schools, you are competing with teh very best. Great credentials, grades, rec. letters, personal statements, etc. Do you really think that b/c one candidate has a TOEFL of 290 and the other one has 280/270, this will be a factor? Please...

I got 293 btw.

I think the results have some bearing though limited. Consider this scenario: Two applicants with similar credentials, both of them hold weighty personal statements, impressive work experience, extremely relevant community service and excellent grades; nonetheless, we meet a slight difference, namely, one got 270 on the Toefl while the other outdid him with a toefl of 290. Now, let's imagine that the Admissions Committee doesn't have more than one space to spare, Could you please forecast which one will probably be granted admission?

I respect your views but I have friends who went to Harvard, Stanford and Yale and I had the chance to meet professors from the admissions committee of some top schools. They were unanimous: after a certain score, TOEFL is not important. When you are short-listed to these schools, you are competing with teh very best. Great credentials, grades, rec. letters, personal statements, etc. Do you really think that b/c one candidate has a TOEFL of 290 and the other one has 280/270, this will be a factor? Please...

I don't regard Paul's argument as seamless . It is very persuasive, though.

Isn't there any chance if your GPA is 3.04 or something like it?