T14 Schools for B Students


eploy2004
Dear Colleagues,

I am interested in applying to a course-work based LL.M. program in International Business Law at a top 14 law school. I am currently looking NYU and Georgetown.

I already have an American JD degree from a top 20 law school but I was just a "B" student, and in fact slightly below the class average. I did however serve on a law journal (I wrote on) and participated in a first-year moot court competition. I also subsequently earned an MBA with honors from a top 25 b-school, and now have over 16 years legal experience though only 7 years at BigLaw and the remaining years freelancing and with my own small firm. Lastly, I have a good dose of extracurricular activities and volunteer legal work. I want to get the LL.M. as a capstone to my career thus far and to help attract more brand-conscious clients. I am also in the position to consider an LL.M. since I have already paid off all my student debts.

I wanted to know whether I would have a reasonable shot at any of the top 14 US law schools? Are there any other top 14 programs I should also consider? Am I wasting my time and money? I would greatly appreciate any advice. Thank you.

Regards,

Ed
Dear Colleagues,

I am interested in applying to a course-work based LL.M. program in International Business Law at a top 14 law school. I am currently looking NYU and Georgetown.

I already have an American JD degree from a top 20 law school but I was just a "B" student, and in fact slightly below the class average. I did however serve on a law journal (I wrote on) and participated in a first-year moot court competition. I also subsequently earned an MBA with honors from a top 25 b-school, and now have over 16 years legal experience though only 7 years at BigLaw and the remaining years freelancing and with my own small firm. Lastly, I have a good dose of extracurricular activities and volunteer legal work. I want to get the LL.M. as a capstone to my career thus far and to help attract more brand-conscious clients. I am also in the position to consider an LL.M. since I have already paid off all my student debts.

I wanted to know whether I would have a reasonable shot at any of the top 14 US law schools? Are there any other top 14 programs I should also consider? Am I wasting my time and money? I would greatly appreciate any advice. Thank you.

Regards,

Ed
quote
jsd
Dear Colleagues,

I am interested in applying to a course-work based LL.M. program in International Business Law at a top 14 law school. I am currently looking NYU and Georgetown.


Ed, you may find the odds against you for the reason that the LL.M. programs at the T14 are publicly stated to be for the benefit of non-US law degree holders. There is usually just one or two, sometimes none (US JD) in a class. Even those few exceptions are candidate/s intending to continue for an SJD and furthering an academic career. That said NYU has a large LLM class size with a dozen differing specialties on offer and it is probably the only good university to target with your credentials - albeit by a long shot. Why not try for an LLM from Europe or Canada?
<blockquote>Dear Colleagues,

I am interested in applying to a course-work based LL.M. program in International Business Law at a top 14 law school. I am currently looking NYU and Georgetown.
</blockquote>

Ed, you may find the odds against you for the reason that the LL.M. programs at the T14 are publicly stated to be for the benefit of non-US law degree holders. There is usually just one or two, sometimes none (US JD) in a class. Even those few exceptions are candidate/s intending to continue for an SJD and furthering an academic career. That said NYU has a large LLM class size with a dozen differing specialties on offer and it is probably the only good university to target with your credentials - albeit by a long shot. Why not try for an LLM from Europe or Canada?
quote
eploy2004
Hi JSD,

Thank you for your post.

From my understanding the Georgetown and NYU programs in International Business Law are also open to US JDs. I agree, however, that most T14 LLMs are either for Americans who want to become academics (perhaps like yourself since you are JSD) or for foreign lawyers seeking an American law credential perhaps as a prelude to US bar passage.

What international programs would you suggest? i was considering the LSE Executive LLM though my largely "B" grades do give me some reason for pause. (I did however do extremely well in my 3 international law courses in my JD program). I am hoping my work experiences and business degree with honors would tip me into the admit category at LSE. What about U. of Edinburgh distance learning LLM in International Commercial Law & Practice? (I understand having other degrees and a professional qualification like the NY bar would be seen favorably in the Scottish admissions process). Also what about National University Singapore's LLM in International Business Law? Do you have any other suggestions or more importantly ones to avoid? For British law schools, I would like to target top 10 law schools. For everywhere else, I am also looking at brand-name schools.

Thank you for your insights. Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,

Ed
Hi JSD,

Thank you for your post.

From my understanding the Georgetown and NYU programs in International Business Law are also open to US JDs. I agree, however, that most T14 LLMs are either for Americans who want to become academics (perhaps like yourself since you are JSD) or for foreign lawyers seeking an American law credential perhaps as a prelude to US bar passage.

What international programs would you suggest? i was considering the LSE Executive LLM though my largely "B" grades do give me some reason for pause. (I did however do extremely well in my 3 international law courses in my JD program). I am hoping my work experiences and business degree with honors would tip me into the admit category at LSE. What about U. of Edinburgh distance learning LLM in International Commercial Law & Practice? (I understand having other degrees and a professional qualification like the NY bar would be seen favorably in the Scottish admissions process). Also what about National University Singapore's LLM in International Business Law? Do you have any other suggestions or more importantly ones to avoid? For British law schools, I would like to target top 10 law schools. For everywhere else, I am also looking at brand-name schools.

Thank you for your insights. Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,

Ed

quote
eploy2004
Further to my previous post, I am also considering Bucerius Master of Law and Business (LLM / MLB). Any thoughts? Any additions?
Further to my previous post, I am also considering Bucerius Master of Law and Business (LLM / MLB). Any thoughts? Any additions?
quote
jsd
Hi JSD,

Thank you for your post.

From my understanding the Georgetown and NYU programs in International Business Law are also open to US JDs.

What international programs would you suggest?


Hello Ed, Technically all the US LLMs are open to US JDs - on paper. The reality is quite different with them representing no more than 0.05-1% of a class. With those numbers, the combined aggregate of JDs enrolled in LLMs in the T14 would not be more than 10-15, including a high number who are JDs from the same law school.

These prejudices are absent across the atlantic (I guess everyone finds the other side more appealing). For a US law background, the UK is the best bet and you should apply to the top 15 UK law schools, although my information is that they emphasise less on professional experience. Singapore is also very good with both NUS and NYU's Singapore branch which I hear a lot of good things about. French and German law schools should be avoided from your perspective (unless your bosses and work take you into Europe frequently)
<blockquote>Hi JSD,

Thank you for your post.

From my understanding the Georgetown and NYU programs in International Business Law are also open to US JDs.

What international programs would you suggest?
</blockquote>

Hello Ed, Technically all the US LLMs are open to US JDs - on paper. The reality is quite different with them representing no more than 0.05-1% of a class. With those numbers, the combined aggregate of JDs enrolled in LLMs in the T14 would not be more than 10-15, including a high number who are JDs from the same law school.

These prejudices are absent across the atlantic (I guess everyone finds the other side more appealing). For a US law background, the UK is the best bet and you should apply to the top 15 UK law schools, although my information is that they emphasise less on professional experience. Singapore is also very good with both NUS and NYU's Singapore branch which I hear a lot of good things about. French and German law schools should be avoided from your perspective (unless your bosses and work take you into Europe frequently)
quote
Interalia
NYU@NUS either has closed down or will be closing down soon. It was not financially viable.

Just thought you should know, given the advice above.
NYU@NUS either has closed down or will be closing down soon. It was not financially viable.

Just thought you should know, given the advice above.
quote
eploy2004
Hi JSD,

Technically all the US LLMs are open to US JDs - on paper. The reality is quite different with them representing no more than 0.05-1% of a class.

For a US law background, the UK is the best bet and you should apply to the top 15 UK law schools, although my information is that they emphasise less on professional experience. Singapore is also very good with both NUS and NYU's Singapore branch which I hear a lot of good things about. French and German law schools should be avoided from your perspective (unless your bosses and work take you into Europe frequently)


Thank you for your suggestions. A shame about the US schools. I will look at the UK schools and NUS as I am currently based in Asia. The European schools would have been cool, but I think your assessment is spot on. There are plenty of Europeans in Asia and a European degree may set me apart from the crowd, but I think the British schools have a bigger following and network in Asia.
Hi JSD,

<blockquote>Technically all the US LLMs are open to US JDs - on paper. The reality is quite different with them representing no more than 0.05-1% of a class.

For a US law background, the UK is the best bet and you should apply to the top 15 UK law schools, although my information is that they emphasise less on professional experience. Singapore is also very good with both NUS and NYU's Singapore branch which I hear a lot of good things about. French and German law schools should be avoided from your perspective (unless your bosses and work take you into Europe frequently)</blockquote>

Thank you for your suggestions. A shame about the US schools. I will look at the UK schools and NUS as I am currently based in Asia. The European schools would have been cool, but I think your assessment is spot on. There are plenty of Europeans in Asia and a European degree may set me apart from the crowd, but I think the British schools have a bigger following and network in Asia.
quote
eploy2004
NYU@NUS either has closed down or will be closing down soon. It was not financially viable.

Just thought you should know, given the advice above.


Doh! Always my luck. The cool dual degree programs either open after I graduate or close right before I apply. I guess it's my lot in life... : (
<blockquote>NYU@NUS either has closed down or will be closing down soon. It was not financially viable.

Just thought you should know, given the advice above. </blockquote>

Doh! Always my luck. The cool dual degree programs either open after I graduate or close right before I apply. I guess it's my lot in life... : (
quote
Brainy Smu...
1. What are you trying to do with a LL.M in International Business Law (or Commerical Law)?

Seems you are wasting money and time pursuing a LL.M in a useless specialty.

With your background (JD/MBA), why not go into taxation/ tax law? Aforementioned, you do not need a LL.M in business law to understanding business.

Evidently, you will gain admittance into a T14 US law school because they will be delighted to take your money for a generic certification. Nevertheless, the LL.M does not par with the JD and gaining a spot into a T14 will be easier. Though the LL.M ranking does not apply with JD rankings. Meaning in the US, the only rankings for a LL.M are for Taxation/Tax law (i.e.. 1. NYU, 2. GULC, 3. UF).

2. Again, why International Business law?

Business/Commercial law is usually trusts, property, antitrust (competition law), and mostly contracts. You are not going to learn anything new, just the same material learnt during your JD.

If you opt for the UK. The only programme worth a damn would be the LSE MSc Law & Accounting. Everything else is rubbish. The UK law market is also glutted for lawyers (barristers, solictors, conveyancers, surveyors and etc..).

3. Are you trying to practice or be an academic?

Kind regards.
1. What are you trying to do with a LL.M in International Business Law (or Commerical Law)?

Seems you are wasting money and time pursuing a LL.M in a useless specialty.

With your background (JD/MBA), why not go into taxation/ tax law? Aforementioned, you do not need a LL.M in business law to understanding business.

Evidently, you will gain admittance into a T14 US law school because they will be delighted to take your money for a generic certification. Nevertheless, the LL.M does not par with the JD and gaining a spot into a T14 will be easier. Though the LL.M ranking does not apply with JD rankings. Meaning in the US, the only rankings for a LL.M are for Taxation/Tax law (i.e.. 1. NYU, 2. GULC, 3. UF).

2. Again, why International Business law?

Business/Commercial law is usually trusts, property, antitrust (competition law), and mostly contracts. You are not going to learn anything new, just the same material learnt during your JD.

If you opt for the UK. The only programme worth a damn would be the LSE MSc Law & Accounting. Everything else is rubbish. The UK law market is also glutted for lawyers (barristers, solictors, conveyancers, surveyors and etc..).

3. Are you trying to practice or be an academic?

Kind regards.
quote
eploy2004
Hi Brainy Smurf,

You raise great points. I'll address them out of order.

No, I don't wish to be an academic. I taught for 1 year at a local law school and I don't plan on repeating it. It was a lot of work, and I hated failing some of my students.... :(

I seek the LL.M. because despite my multidisciplinary education, I still feel like it is deficient. For example, I spent far more time taking cool (though economically useless) human rights, public international law and other public-sector type courses during my JD curriculum. Though I took corporations, it was my only real business law course (leaving aside first-year contracts and federal income tax) and even with that class I just squeaked by. I never bothered taking securities, partnerships or any more elaborate business law courses, and I now regret it. Also I never took a "deals course" which seems to be standard in the UK. While I did very well in B-school, I don't feel my business degree fitted well with my law degree. My work experience also was not as strong as I would like it to have been despite 7 years at big, brand-name law firms. (The training was either too specialized or too sparse). So my education and on-the-job training was rather disjointed. I hope the LL.M. will fill in the gaping holes and missing pieces to my knowledge and experience.

About US vs. UK LL.M. program(mes), after some thought I am tending towards a UK LL.M. as I think it may compliment my education more. The US LL.M.s seem more research oriented even for the course-work based LL.M.s Also, the price of UK schools appears to be cheaper and I suspect generally easier to get into. (Having taken 2 LLB courses at UCL and an American JD, I still feel that the US education was more rigorous for the reason that it was a graduate degree and not an undergraduate one). If I go for a distance learning LLM at Edinburgh or UoL, then the price is quite doable.

Thanks for your tip about the LSE MSc in Law & Accounting. I will check it out though I still prefer LSE's Executive LLM programme.

Kind regards,

Ed
Hi Brainy Smurf,

You raise great points. I'll address them out of order.

No, I don't wish to be an academic. I taught for 1 year at a local law school and I don't plan on repeating it. It was a lot of work, and I hated failing some of my students.... :(

I seek the LL.M. because despite my multidisciplinary education, I still feel like it is deficient. For example, I spent far more time taking cool (though economically useless) human rights, public international law and other public-sector type courses during my JD curriculum. Though I took corporations, it was my only real business law course (leaving aside first-year contracts and federal income tax) and even with that class I just squeaked by. I never bothered taking securities, partnerships or any more elaborate business law courses, and I now regret it. Also I never took a "deals course" which seems to be standard in the UK. While I did very well in B-school, I don't feel my business degree fitted well with my law degree. My work experience also was not as strong as I would like it to have been despite 7 years at big, brand-name law firms. (The training was either too specialized or too sparse). So my education and on-the-job training was rather disjointed. I hope the LL.M. will fill in the gaping holes and missing pieces to my knowledge and experience.

About US vs. UK LL.M. program(mes), after some thought I am tending towards a UK LL.M. as I think it may compliment my education more. The US LL.M.s seem more research oriented even for the course-work based LL.M.s Also, the price of UK schools appears to be cheaper and I suspect generally easier to get into. (Having taken 2 LLB courses at UCL and an American JD, I still feel that the US education was more rigorous for the reason that it was a graduate degree and not an undergraduate one). If I go for a distance learning LLM at Edinburgh or UoL, then the price is quite doable.

Thanks for your tip about the LSE MSc in Law & Accounting. I will check it out though I still prefer LSE's Executive LLM programme.

Kind regards,

Ed



quote
eploy2004
With your background (JD/MBA), why not go into taxation/ tax law? Aforementioned, you do not need a LL.M in business law to understanding business.


Tax law makes sense but it just feels too specialized and doesn't interest me as much. Business law is broader but arguably not too broad, and hence the appeal for me.
<blockquote>With your background (JD/MBA), why not go into taxation/ tax law? Aforementioned, you do not need a LL.M in business law to understanding business.</blockquote>

Tax law makes sense but it just feels too specialized and doesn't interest me as much. Business law is broader but arguably not too broad, and hence the appeal for me.
quote

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