Hi everyone,

I would like to start working as an Attorney soon as I pass the New York Bar Exam.
Given my profile, do you have an idea of what would be the most judicious choices to make and what kind of firms would need my skills?

My qualifications / profile:

- Degree (J.D level) in French Law (Paris)
- Degree (J.D. Level) in Anglo-American Law (Paris - final year in London)
- Masters (LLM Level) French Business Law (Paris)
- LLM Entertainment Law (London)
- LLM Comparative Law (US)
- 4-year experience as Legal Consultant in Music Law, applying French, British and American law (UK)
- Loads of Business Experience (Marketing and Business Development Manager)
- Age: 27
- Languages: English, German, French

I'm taking the NY Bar Exami in July and I am planning to join the Paris Bar soon though I am not planning to start my career in France. I could try the UK, but I know it's hard for someone who studied abroad to get a training contract, even with excellent credentials.

Do you think I could make use of my language skills and my knowledge of different legal systems in NY?... even if I have no prior work experience in the US?

Many thanks

Sauvageonne

Helllllo!!!
Do u think I have a chance to start my career in NY after my LLM?

I'd say so. N.Y. needs attorneys with language skills more than most U.S. cities. If anything, you seem to be overqualified for a 'starting' position. Where did you study?

That's what I thought, but what I do need at least 2 years Post-Qualification experience to go solo.
I didn't intend to collect degrees for the sake of it, but had to take another LLM in the US to be admitted to the NY Bar.
I've been in Cergy-Pontoise, Pantheon-Sorbonne, Kings College, New Orleans & Westminster University. Nothing too fancy.
It seems like international firms in NY prefer having juniors with one JD and one LLM so as to easily mold them. They may fear someone that like me quickly goes solo.

You've been to Cergy-Pontoise ? Le monde est petit ! I was there between 1998 and 2002. When were you registered there ? Did you attend the dual program in French and Anglo-American Law ?

I did. I was there in 96-99. I think that's a good university and we get well trained there, but it's still very young to make a name abroad.

There is only one way to find out for certain.
Vous pensez a votre avenir. Vous y pensez!

that must have been some very expensive education - let me get this right: 2 JDs, 2 LLMs, and 4 yrs experience. all by the age of 27.

nobody needs 2 yrs experience before going solo, it's probably better than going solo w/ no experience, but it's not mandatory. btw, going solo is difficult enough for even junior US lawyers, let alone foreign ones who, in any event, cannot legally go solo in the US - you have to have a sponsoring employer (well, okay, legally you can start your own firm and then petition to have the firm employ you)

about your "JD level" law degree (or degrees) - i take it you mean postgraduate (like US law school is) - be warned that firms do not regard any european undergraduate degrees (incl. law degrees) as being JD level, unless they followed at least a 3 yr undergraduate degree. Most firms (incl. small firms) will not settle for less than a full 3 yr JD from an ABA approved law school.

it's hard to carve out a career as a lawyer in the US, just as hard as in the UK. the vast majority of lawyers end up qualifying into firms with less than 20 partners. i believe something like 50% of all US lawyers are solo practitioners or in small (2/3 partner) firms. very few start on anything close to $100K per year.

i have three law degrees - a UK LLB, a US LLM, and a US JD, all from top tier schools. i have never worked for or been interviewed even by a firm w/ more than 3 partners.

basically, for a foreigner to get a good job in NY you really need the following, more so than a US citizen:

top 1-10 law school from first-tier
full 3 yr JD
substantial participation on Law Review
grades placing you in the top 10%

do those 4 things and biglaw firms "will" interview you. there are just too many law graduates these days (thousands) (more than available vacancies almost) with the above credentials for law firms to bother venturing out of those criteria.

Hi, could you share with us the universities you attended for both, the LL.M. and the J.D. degrees.

Thanks for the info. I'm not sure what JD really means, but my undergraduate law degrees took involved 4 years. Also, do you mean that a degree like an LLB is of no relevance to a US large firm?
I wish they could just make it clear on their websites.
I'm going to target the smaller NY firms then. It's not at all realistic to go solo from scratch (even in Paris). I know that if I do get at least 2 years experience, even in a small organisation, I'll be marketable (I hate this word) in a few countries, and will be able to work as a UK solicitor on my own or with a large firm.
I hope you find something interesting soon. It looks like you've worked hard and well enough for this.

UnderemployedLawyer, I've sent you out an e-mail a few days ago asking of you an advice with regard to an LL.M. degree and the job prospects following its completion. Have you read it? I need to come to terms with this problem as soon as possible. Could you please lend me a hand?

I have an LLB from Southampton Uni in the UK, and an LLM and JD from a first tier US school (I won't name it, but its ranked in the 25-35 range).

I came to the US with aspirations of working for a large US firm, either here (I was looking at west coast i.e., LA) or back in London. It became evident during the LLM that 24 credit hrs would not be enough to compete with US law grads who have a 4 yr undergraduate degree followed by a 3 yr JD, so I transferred my credits at the end of the LLM yr to the JD program (same school), and graduated in the same 3 yrs, though fortunately I was able to retain the LLM by cramming a few extra credits in for two semesters and during one summer externship.

Despite this, it was stilll very difficult to land on campus interviews with the big boys. most people who got them were at least top 25% (I wasn't!) and just as important, on Law Review.

Still, I did get a job for after graduation with a very small litigation firm. It didn't and still doesn't pay much, but the up side is that I have gotten to do my own jury trials and appeals. Something I would never have done at a big firm, and in retrospect I guess I wouldn't want to go to a big firm, though I could sure do with the money.

My school wasn't too expensive, and I got a partial tuition scholarship. I would have spent just as much pursuing the LPC/BVC route back in England (unless a firm sponsored me I suppose). After 2 yrs post bar admission experience I was able to sit the QLTT and obtain an English solicitor's license too (last summer in LA), just in case I move back to the UK.

The only LLMs on my course who got jobs in the US with just the LLM had something additional to offer. One was much older than me and a Korean businessman who also had an MBA from Wharton, the other was a Chinese lawyer with a few yrs international business experience from Shanghai and who spoke fluent Mandarin (obviously). Are you seeing how it works? It didn't work for me because I was just some 26 yr old "punk".

So, unless you're like the above people, then to get a job in the US you are going to have to be slightly better than the typical JD student who gets interviews at the big firms - he/she goes to a top 20 law school, is on Law Review, and ranks in the top 20% of his/her class. So, you'll need to go to a top 10 school, be on Law Review too, and rank in t he top 10% - that means doing the full JD. If you can do that, then it will probably justify a big firm going to the effort of sponsoring your work permit, since they'll do anything for the best and the brightest. Or they'll put you to work stateside during your free one year you get to work after graduating and then transfer you to an office in Europe or Asia, and then they can easily transfer you back.

This is quite exhaustive, I hope.

Thank you very much, uneremployedlawyer, for your insight.

All that being said, i think it is better to forget altogether any hope to land a job in the US for a big firm, and just view the LL.M. as an opportunity to enhance your knowledge of US Law and specialize in some area, such as International Law, IP or Tax. Given the many hurdles to overcome, hurdles that could prove insurmountable; one shouldn't ingenuously cherish the dream of an oustanding career after just an LL.M. If you are seriously weighing the possibility of working in the US as an Attorney, you may consider taking the LSAT exam and secure a seat at a top law school in order to get to JD degree. I hold that approach would be more sensible than simply wasting your nevers on LL.M. applications and, thereafter, getting an LL.M. with somber career prospects. With this in mind, you could save yourself the stress you're put under when applying to top law schools, and, further, you'll have a better shot at being offered a more rewarding, respected post at a big law firm. I think that a lot of the employment difficulties arise out of the poor legal market in the US, i have the impression that US lawyers are looked upon with contempt by a host of people, and, i've read somewhere on the internet that US lawyers don't earn that much money as compared to MDs and other professionals, and they're actually at the middle of the salary charts sorted by occupations and professions. However, i guess that many attorneys from top 10 law firms do earn way more than average MDs and professionals just as a great many outstanding MDs could earn far more than many, distinguished lawyers in top 10 law firms; and, yet, i'm just surmising.

I'll say it again. There is more to the legal profession than working for a mega firm and working mega hours to make mega money. There are around 200 ABA approved law schools in the United States, of which maybe 20 are considered "top" law schools. To work for a mega firm, you need to graduate (JD, not LLM) from one of the "top" law schools in the top 10% to top 20% in your class. Lets see, this leaves all the graduates from the remaining 180 law schools and 80% to 90% of the graduates from the top law schools unabale to work for a mega firm. So I figure that maybe 3% of all law graduates in the US end up at a mega firm. How do the remaining 97% of the law graduates survive? Simple, you go out and get a job with a small to mid sized firm, go solo or go work for the government. I am a government attorney. Where I work you will make a six figure salary after 3 1/2 years. You will also work a 40 hour week, have a government pension, 4 to 6 weeks of vacation a year, 14 holidays a year, paid sick leave and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, a life outside of the practice of law. You could'nt pay me enough to work for a mega firm. I am a graduate of a "top" law school (graduated in the middle of my class), and most of my classmates who went to work for a mega firm only lasted 3 or 4 years. In fact, a classmate who was on Law Review quit his mega firm after 5 years to accept a position as an Assistant US Attorney.

Thanx guys.
Richard, you message makes sense. My ultimate goal is not to work for a large law firm at the end. I just want to make sure I won't be on the dole after I'm admitted at the NYB and the Paris Bar.

Hi Sauvage.

Many others have commented on your questions so I will try
to make this short, but thought I'd offer my comments.

I'm an American with a JD, completing a LLM program in New York. Are you currently in the US LLM program in Comparative law, or have you already completed it? Did you get any on campus interviews at your LLM school? If so, have any of those led to more interviews, or a job offer? If you didn't get interviews, do you know why?

I don't mean any of my thoughts to be discouraging or negative, but I will tell you what my experiences are. My foreign friends in the LLM program have had extremely difficult times trying to find a job in New York after graduation. I only know 2 students who have done so, so far, and they are both from Australia, and they both worked for 2 years at a law firm there before coming here to do the LLM program. They also had very good grades.

The others are right when they say that American law firms, especially the large ones, will not consider your education equivilant to an American JD. I'm not saying this is fair, but its how it is here. An American JD works like this -- you have to go to 4 years of undergraduate study (college), where you earn a bachelor's degree in your major subject. After that, you must take the LSAT admissions test for law school, and apply to law schools seperately for your JD. Then you must attend law school for 3 years to get your JD. So that's a total of 7 years education after high school.

American law firms do not consider foreign attorneys to have the equivilant legal education, even if you do a LLM at an American school. Some foreign LLM students may get jobs, but it is more likely that they have work experience in their home country already that shows law firms that you have equivilant work experience to American legal work experience.

I do know some foreign students who have gotten jobs at large law firms here in New York that are "foreign associate" positions, where they are given a position for 9 months or 1 year. These are somewhat easier to get than a permanent position, but still very hard to get. Mostly students who get these positions have excellent grades, and they also have some sort of connection in their home country to the US law firm -- either by their law firm at home reccomending them to a specific American law firm, or the American law firm feels that the foreign student will be a good contact and way to develop business in that foreign country, after the student returns to their country. I would definitely suggest that you try to apply for some of these positions, so you can start working in the fall after the bar exam, and get some good American work experience.

There is the hope that some of these students will be hired for the temporary positions, and so well so they are asked to stay permanently, but this is a very rare exception. I would not count on this happening.

Of course, the best way to have a chance at working here is to take the New York bar and pass it. But if you take the bar this summer you will not know if you pass until late November. It can still take months after passing the bar to find a job. I have heard anywhere from 6 months to 15 months. So you would need to be prepared for this, and be able to afford living here while looking, or find a job doing temporary work, etc.

Most American law firms hire foreign students during the spring of the student's LLM year. There are some organized job fairs for foreign students and job postings for foreign students. You also must send applications to firms on your own. But as I said before, this has proven very difficult for the foreign LLMs I know. If you have already completed your LLM, this may be even more difficult, as law firms generally do things in a certain structured manner, hiring foreign students in the spring, and they do not deviate from the standard hiring practices much.

I do know some foreign LLM students who have had success in getting jobs with American firms - but in Brussels. You may want to pursue this avenue, and try to get a permanent job in Brussels first. Then you may be able to transfer to the New York office in the future. Of course this is not guaranteed either, but the firms seem to be much more keen to hire foreign students to work in Brussels in New York.

Your educational background is impressive, and I'm sure it would not be difficult for you to find a job in France. So I apologize that it seems so difficult in the United States. But there are just so many JD graduates every year, that it is much easier for American law firms to just hire JDs who are familiar with the US legal system, do not need work visas, etc. Also, the legal job market in the United States in general has been very tought the last couple years. There are many JD graduates who do not have jobs, and who are still trying to find a permanent job a couple years after graduation. So there simply isn't a need for more attorney applicants, and it seems foreign students have to have truly exceptional credentials and work experience to get hired by US firms.

As you said, your goal is to work for a firm that is not one of the large firms -- which may be easier to do. I would suggest doing a lot of research on small and medium firms in New York. I have a French friend in the LLM now who is working part time for a small firm that does transnational work, and they may give her a job after graduation. Then for firms you are interested in, write detailed application letters to them and outline your experience and education, and explain how you could be an asset at their firm -- in terms of language skills, extensive education, familiarity with different legal systems. Those are the firms that will most likely be more willing to speak to you and find out if you could be a fit with their firm.

I would suggest applying to these firms soon -- and indicate that you will take the NY bar this summer and are able to start work in the fall. They may take you on as a "law clerk" (what you are called before you have been admitted to practice), with the condition that you will be an attorney there once you find out you passed the bar. You may even want to say something in your cover letter that you want to apply for "associate or law clerk" positions.

Good luck with your search Sauvage. It sounds like you're doing a lot of work on this and are very persistent, and that's what you need to get a job here. Keep at it, and good luck!

Sauvage:

One more thing...your profile says you have experience in transactional work relating to entertainment/music contracts. One way for you to get started in New York is to apply for jobs that are not attorney jobs, but jobs such as "contract administrator" and "contract manager" at entertainment companies and music companies. These jobs do not require a law degree, but your law degrees and your work experience would certainly be an asset and most likely really help towards getting an interview.

For those types of jobs, companies will be much more willing to consider a foreign applicant, because there isn't the big dilemma about having equivilant education, not having a JD, etc. And this would allow you to get into a legal department of a entertainment or music company, and from there you can work your way up to getting more attorney-like duties, as well as getting valuable work experience in the US. If you could get a job like this to start in the fall, then you can work while you're waiting for bar results, and also gain experience. You can still look for permanent attorney jobs at the same time.

One thing that American firms look for, with foreign applicants or JD applicants, is actual practical work experience. Some students who attend top schools, with very good grades, go straight to law firms without any work experience. But if you're looking for an attorney job, and you didn't do summer associate position and don't have a job set up at graduation, you need to set yourself apart from all the other applicants. Work experience shows the employer that you can handle the work and you know how law is applied in a practical setting.

I know some foreign students here who have really good grades, and very good educational backgrounds outside of the US. But they are not finding jobs because they have no work experience.

Good advice, all the above.

If you set your sights a bit lower, there is a plethora of opportunity in the US, esp. compared to even the UK (which has a good market too). Heck, I started doing jury trials out the gate after passing the bar. Becoming a jury trial lawyer in the UK (i.e., a barrister), is harder than getting an associate position at Clifford Chance, and yet here in the US there are many many grads from less than first-tier schools and with average (even low) grades who are doing this type of work at DA, PD and small firm offices. They don't pay well, anywhere from $40-60K depending on the city, but in "relative" cost-of-living terms (i.e., ignoring the meaningless exchange rate) these guys and gals are earning as much as newly qualified corporate lawyers at some of the biggest firms in London!

If you have language skills, esp. spanish, there are many smaller firms in the southwest US (Cal., Arizona, Las Vegas etc), who I think would sponsor a Spanish speaking LLM.

Finally, if you get admitted to an LLM at a top 10 (maybe top 20) law school, do it! But understand that getting in is only the beginning. What I am saying is, that if you are prepared to work hard ("bust your ass" so-to-speak), you stand a very real chance of being hired by a top US firm in the US. What does that mean - *it means having your grade in every LLM subject you take landing you in the top 10 students in that class* (not just top 10% - though that's good too probably) - do that, and most schools will alllow you to transfer your credit to the JD program and do another 2 yrs and get the JD, keeping your rank in the top 10, and getting onto Law Review.

Foreign status aside, I guarantee you that most large NY based firms will interview you with these credentials. And the great thing is it's all in your hands and in your control i.e., how well you do. Most LLMs don't bother with this, thinking the "LLM" tag will open doors - it usually won't - but a top 10 student from a top 10 school who was on Law Review - obviously there are not many of them - but they get the jobs with little effort - why? because they already put the effort in and there's nothing more to prove.

I didn't expect that much info. Thank y'all. Looks like a proper rat race. I do have some contacts (not sure how promising) in NY, Ohio and Louisiana. Louisiana use civil law (as opposed to common law) which could be a plus for me.
I'm gonna build a database of firms and contact them as of now.
I know for sure that I'm becoming allergic to universities now and I am not taking on a JD. It's not unusual for students (especially French) to be loaded with degrees, but to me it's not something I'm proud of.

Underemployedlawyer, thank you for your encouraging remark. It has prompted me see the LL.M. Program from a new standpoint i had no idea existed. However, i don't think that it is healthy to even consider that you can be amongst the top 10 students at a top 10 or 20 law school, since the competition is very fierce and you'll most probably wind up terribly disappointed even since the very beginning of the classes. You should just expect to do a good job and everything within your grip while in school and, also, envision yourself in a less ambitious job setting. That attitude could keep you from ending up miserable and contrite.