Ranking - Georgetown


Wizard
How can GULC be #1 (clinical training); #2 (tax law); #4 (international law); #4 (Environmental Law); #4 (Trial Advocacy); and ONLY #14 IN THE GENERAL RANKING????

According to the board and previous posts, I trying to discover what's wrong with GULC....

Someone have an idea?

Regards
How can GULC be #1 (clinical training); #2 (tax law); #4 (international law); #4 (Environmental Law); #4 (Trial Advocacy); and ONLY #14 IN THE GENERAL RANKING????

According to the board and previous posts, I trying to discover what's wrong with GULC....

Someone have an idea?

Regards
quote
I just had the same doubt...

When I checked USNews' methodology section it stated:
"Specialty Rankings: These specialty rankings are based solely on votes by legal educators, who nominated up to 15 schools in each field. Legal educators chosen were a selection of those listed in the Association of American Law Schools Directory of Law Teachers 2007-2008 as currently teaching in that field. In the case of clinical and legal writing, the nominations were made by directors or members of the clinical and legal writing programs at each law school. Those programs that received the most top 15 nominations appear in descending order."

As to the general ranking, the site says it's comprised of a larger set of variables, like size of the library, student-professor distribution, placement rate etc.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/best-law-schools/2009/04/22/law-school-rankings-methodology.html

I think this explains the apparent disparity. Maybe GULC is well-regarded by its peers but has not got as huge a library, or as good a proportion between students and professors to receive an all-around good review by USNews.

Anyway, also of notice is that the USNews ranking is not specialized in LLMs, but in JDs.
Perhaps it's a good proxy, but it may not be the best criteria for comparing LLM programs.
(I think the one real criteria for comparing programs is your individual interests and their better coupling with one Law School or other... also, maybe, slight differences in cost of tuition and living expenses)

Hope this helped!
Good luck to us!
I just had the same doubt...

When I checked USNews' methodology section it stated:
"Specialty Rankings: These specialty rankings are based solely on votes by legal educators, who nominated up to 15 schools in each field. Legal educators chosen were a selection of those listed in the Association of American Law Schools Directory of Law Teachers 2007-2008 as currently teaching in that field. In the case of clinical and legal writing, the nominations were made by directors or members of the clinical and legal writing programs at each law school. Those programs that received the most top 15 nominations appear in descending order."

As to the general ranking, the site says it's comprised of a larger set of variables, like size of the library, student-professor distribution, placement rate etc.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/best-law-schools/2009/04/22/law-school-rankings-methodology.html

I think this explains the apparent disparity. Maybe GULC is well-regarded by its peers but has not got as huge a library, or as good a proportion between students and professors to receive an all-around good review by USNews.

Anyway, also of notice is that the USNews ranking is not specialized in LLMs, but in JDs.
Perhaps it's a good proxy, but it may not be the best criteria for comparing LLM programs.
(I think the one real criteria for comparing programs is your individual interests and their better coupling with one Law School or other... also, maybe, slight differences in cost of tuition and living expenses)

Hope this helped!
Good luck to us!
quote
MAB79
There is nothi8ng wrong with GULC! Rankings are rather subjective than objective and therefore, some schools can be ranked not in the top ten although their law school is worldwide a topshot!

MOre than that: The usnews ranking says absolutely nothing regarding the LL.M. programs. I'd suggest to chose the school that best suits you according your personal view!

Btw: If you look at the worldwide ranking, there are some funny results as well...
There is nothi8ng wrong with GULC! Rankings are rather subjective than objective and therefore, some schools can be ranked not in the top ten although their law school is worldwide a topshot!

MOre than that: The usnews ranking says absolutely nothing regarding the LL.M. programs. I'd suggest to chose the school that best suits you according your personal view!

Btw: If you look at the worldwide ranking, there are some funny results as well...
quote
AUAP has a ranking regarding LLM programs (not JD, not university overall standing, but LLMs especifically):
http://www.auap.com/llm.html

According to them:
2010 Rankings of American LL.M/Master of Law
1) Cornell University (NY)
2) University of Pennsylvania
3) NYU (NY)
4) Columbia University (NY)
5) Harvard University (MA)
6) Fordham (NY)
7) Boston U. (MA)
8) Duke University (NC)
9) Geroge Washington University (DC)
10) Cardozo Law School Yeshiva University (NY)
11) University of Chicago (IL)
12) Yale (CT)
13) American University (DC)
14) Pennsylvania State University (PA)
15) LSU (LA)
16) UCLA (CA)
17) University of Southern California (CA)
18) Washington University (MO)
19) University of San Diego (CA)
20) Georgetown Universtity* (DC).
*Georgetown University is not recommended for bar examinations as said in their own pages.

They also say: "This classification is based on the program quality, admissions rate, world image of the university, average starting salary and satisfaction index of international students. This classification is global and does not reflect the comparative strength of each program in a specific field of Law (such as International Civil Law, Taxation, Internet, intellectual property etc.)"

That said, I think more than relying on rankings to judge the merits of a program, it is better to do as suggested by MAB79: "chose the school that best suits you according your personal view".
AUAP has a ranking regarding LLM programs (not JD, not university overall standing, but LLMs especifically):
http://www.auap.com/llm.html

According to them:
2010 Rankings of American LL.M/Master of Law
1) Cornell University (NY)
2) University of Pennsylvania
3) NYU (NY)
4) Columbia University (NY)
5) Harvard University (MA)
6) Fordham (NY)
7) Boston U. (MA)
8) Duke University (NC)
9) Geroge Washington University (DC)
10) Cardozo Law School Yeshiva University (NY)
11) University of Chicago (IL)
12) Yale (CT)
13) American University (DC)
14) Pennsylvania State University (PA)
15) LSU (LA)
16) UCLA (CA)
17) University of Southern California (CA)
18) Washington University (MO)
19) University of San Diego (CA)
20) Georgetown Universtity* (DC).
*Georgetown University is not recommended for bar examinations as said in their own pages.

They also say: "This classification is based on the program quality, admissions rate, world image of the university, average starting salary and satisfaction index of international students. This classification is global and does not reflect the comparative strength of each program in a specific field of Law (such as International Civil Law, Taxation, Internet, intellectual property etc.)"

That said, I think more than relying on rankings to judge the merits of a program, it is better to do as suggested by MAB79: "chose the school that best suits you according your personal view".
quote
MAB79
I assume that the ranking takes into account that e.g. Cornell is not a very attractive University (only because of its location!) and therefore not many students apply per year. Therefore, they have a high admission rate. Since Cornell is an Ivy League School, the reputation worldwide is perfect. The same applies to UPenn which is the runner-up. Good reputation but compared to NY or Boston, not that attractive to study. So, I guess, there is no such thing as a objective ranking!
I assume that the ranking takes into account that e.g. Cornell is not a very attractive University (only because of its location!) and therefore not many students apply per year. Therefore, they have a high admission rate. Since Cornell is an Ivy League School, the reputation worldwide is perfect. The same applies to UPenn which is the runner-up. Good reputation but compared to NY or Boston, not that attractive to study. So, I guess, there is no such thing as a objective ranking!

quote
Dantès
I assume that the ranking takes into account that e.g. Cornell is not a very attractive University (only because of its location!) and therefore not many students apply per year. Therefore, they have a high admission rate. Since Cornell is an Ivy League School, the reputation worldwide is perfect. The same applies to UPenn which is the runner-up. Good reputation but compared to NY or Boston, not that attractive to study. So, I guess, there is no such thing as a objective ranking!


How would you compare Harvard and Columbia?
(my interests are in international trade, intellectual property, internet law, law & development, and antitrust)

I reckon Harvard has the edge of housing the Berkman Center for Law and Society and excellent faculty on internet law, but I read that Columbia is strong in both IP and int'l law... what would be best for me? and what would be best overall? (if I happen to be admitted)

I opened a specific thread about this at www.llm-guide.com/board/78188
<blockquote>I assume that the ranking takes into account that e.g. Cornell is not a very attractive University (only because of its location!) and therefore not many students apply per year. Therefore, they have a high admission rate. Since Cornell is an Ivy League School, the reputation worldwide is perfect. The same applies to UPenn which is the runner-up. Good reputation but compared to NY or Boston, not that attractive to study. So, I guess, there is no such thing as a objective ranking!
</blockquote>

How would you compare Harvard and Columbia?
(my interests are in international trade, intellectual property, internet law, law & development, and antitrust)

I reckon Harvard has the edge of housing the Berkman Center for Law and Society and excellent faculty on internet law, but I read that Columbia is strong in both IP and int'l law... what would be best for me? and what would be best overall? (if I happen to be admitted)

I opened a specific thread about this at www.llm-guide.com/board/78188
quote
Wizard
I wonder about the securities and financial regulation program. The curriculum seen so different and interesting, yet I do not have a clue about employment and status afterwards.
I wonder about the securities and financial regulation program. The curriculum seen so different and interesting, yet I do not have a clue about employment and status afterwards.
quote
Alain
AUAP has a ranking regarding LLM programs (not JD, not university overall standing, but LLMs especifically)


The AUAP ranking is complete nonsense:

http://www.llm-guide.com/board/68438
http://www.llm-guide.com/board/1676
http://www.llm-guide.com/board/14645
<blockquote>AUAP has a ranking regarding LLM programs (not JD, not university overall standing, but LLMs especifically)</blockquote>

The AUAP ranking is complete nonsense:

http://www.llm-guide.com/board/68438
http://www.llm-guide.com/board/1676
http://www.llm-guide.com/board/14645
quote
MAB79
I wonder about the securities and financial regulation program. The curriculum seen so different and interesting, yet I do not have a clue about employment and status afterwards.


Since you are in Washington and therefore close to all the international organisations etc. I think that GULC will be a very good uni to be.
<blockquote>I wonder about the securities and financial regulation program. The curriculum seen so different and interesting, yet I do not have a clue about employment and status afterwards.</blockquote>

Since you are in Washington and therefore close to all the international organisations etc. I think that GULC will be a very good uni to be.
quote
smartjerry
*Georgetown University is not recommended for bar examinations as said in their own pages.

Why? The students' pass rate was low?
*Georgetown University is not recommended for bar examinations as said in their own pages.

Why? The students' pass rate was low?
quote
drums2345
Below is a response I previously posted regarding GULC. There is NOTHING WRONG WITH GULC. In the areas of tax, securities and financial regulation it is number 2, 1, and 1 respectively. The schools ranking for LLM programs should be contingent upon the area of study in my opinion. Maybe the following will be helpful:

"As a current student at the Georgetown University Law Center seeking an LLM in Securities and Financial Regulation, I highly recommend this program to anyone interested in pursuing a career in either securities or financial regulation. Quite frankly, I believe those professionals without an LLM in this area of specialty will be at a disadvantage due to the complexity and comprehensiveness of these fields of law. In the current market, lawyers need every advantage they can find and they need to avoid any gaps on their resume. Hence, this LLM may be very helpful. Further, law firms now do not want to pay for the training of their associates and would rather have an associate that can hit the ground running.
In addition to the highly competent and qualified teaching (the best in their fields) and connections with all of the various regulators in DC creating an ideal and cutting edge learning environment, the connections and ability to gain experience at the regulators through the program (e.g., SEC, Treasury, OCC, FDIC, FERC, CFTC, etc.) are excellent. For the reasons stated above, and many others not stated, Georgetown University Law Center's LLM Program in Securities and Financial Regulation is probably the best program of its kind within the United States.
Although there are schools like Harvard, Columbia, etc. these schools, in this area of the law, are not in DC. Why is this important? Washington D.C. is the center of all financial regulation within the US and the center of all legal reforms in the areas of securities and banking law. When your professors walk (or take the Metro) directly from their highest ranking positions in Big Law or at the SEC, OCC, FDIC, CFTC, FERC, Treasury, FINRA etc. (most of whom have also previously worked in Big Law) you become the possible recipient of the best connections possible and are learning the most current and relevant information possible. Although much of the world still says "Wow!" when you say you went to Harvard, at the end of the day it comes down to what you know, who you know, and how well you can utilize these two things in your career.
The current legal market in the United States is probably and hopefully the worst those reading this will ever experience. Also, we should be out of this mess within a few years. Hereafter, things will get better for us all. Now is a good time to be obtaining an LLM in an area of the law that interests you and that will serve to connect you to many future employers. My recommendation is if you have a job then keep it and do the LLM part-time. If you dont have a job and cant find one, then seriously consider getting your LLM (full-time or part-time) from the best school possible in that particular area of the law because in the future this may be a new unspoken requirement in many fields of law such as securities and banking law. Please do not forget some important facts: 1) the law and the legal profession are both becoming more specialized and more complex; and 2) most employers today would rather hire someone that already has a strong foundation in their chosen field than to have to pay for and take valuable time to train that lawyer. Also, the proliferation of LLM programs is changing the landscape of the legal profession and upping the ante as they say in poker."
Below is a response I previously posted regarding GULC. There is NOTHING WRONG WITH GULC. In the areas of tax, securities and financial regulation it is number 2, 1, and 1 respectively. The schools ranking for LLM programs should be contingent upon the area of study in my opinion. Maybe the following will be helpful:

"As a current student at the Georgetown University Law Center seeking an LLM in Securities and Financial Regulation, I highly recommend this program to anyone interested in pursuing a career in either securities or financial regulation. Quite frankly, I believe those professionals without an LLM in this area of specialty will be at a disadvantage due to the complexity and comprehensiveness of these fields of law. In the current market, lawyers need every advantage they can find and they need to avoid any gaps on their resume. Hence, this LLM may be very helpful. Further, law firms now do not want to pay for the training of their associates and would rather have an associate that can hit the ground running.
In addition to the highly competent and qualified teaching (the best in their fields) and connections with all of the various regulators in DC creating an ideal and cutting edge learning environment, the connections and ability to gain experience at the regulators through the program (e.g., SEC, Treasury, OCC, FDIC, FERC, CFTC, etc.) are excellent. For the reasons stated above, and many others not stated, Georgetown University Law Center's LLM Program in Securities and Financial Regulation is probably the best program of its kind within the United States.
Although there are schools like Harvard, Columbia, etc. these schools, in this area of the law, are not in DC. Why is this important? Washington D.C. is the center of all financial regulation within the US and the center of all legal reforms in the areas of securities and banking law. When your professors walk (or take the Metro) directly from their highest ranking positions in Big Law or at the SEC, OCC, FDIC, CFTC, FERC, Treasury, FINRA etc. (most of whom have also previously worked in Big Law) you become the possible recipient of the best connections possible and are learning the most current and relevant information possible. Although much of the world still says "Wow!" when you say you went to Harvard, at the end of the day it comes down to what you know, who you know, and how well you can utilize these two things in your career.
The current legal market in the United States is probably and hopefully the worst those reading this will ever experience. Also, we should be out of this mess within a few years. Hereafter, things will get better for us all. Now is a good time to be obtaining an LLM in an area of the law that interests you and that will serve to connect you to many future employers. My recommendation is if you have a job then keep it and do the LLM part-time. If you don’t have a job and can’t find one, then seriously consider getting your LLM (full-time or part-time) from the best school possible in that particular area of the law because in the future this may be a new unspoken requirement in many fields of law such as securities and banking law. Please do not forget some important facts: 1) the law and the legal profession are both becoming more specialized and more complex; and 2) most employers today would rather hire someone that already has a strong foundation in their chosen field than to have to pay for and take valuable time to train that lawyer. Also, the proliferation of LLM programs is changing the landscape of the legal profession and “upping the ante” as they say in poker."
quote

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