PennLaw or NYU


JVW

Have a difficult decision to make: both accepted for NYU and PennLaw corporation LLM program. Don't know which one to choose. Anyone suggestions?

Have a difficult decision to make: both accepted for NYU and PennLaw corporation LLM program. Don't know which one to choose. Anyone suggestions?
quote
mav09

This is a difficult choice as both law schools are fantastic.
However, there are some remarkable differences between the two.
NYU as is evident from US News ranking has a far better reputation than UPenn.
NYU's Corporate Law Program is rated much higher than that of UPenn according to Brian Leiter's Top Law Schools by Specialty Area.
NYU's is located in New York and you won't find a better location than this as far a legal practice is concerned. NY has 16 super elite firms' offices out of which 8 are headquartered there.
Maximum hiring takes place in New York than any other place and most New York firms prefer to hire from NY schools. Therefore it appears that being at NYU is much more advantageous.
I am sure you would be aware of most of the information but I guess need to hear it out from people to make up your mind.
anyway, best of luck choosing between two gr8 schools.

This is a difficult choice as both law schools are fantastic.
However, there are some remarkable differences between the two.
NYU as is evident from US News ranking has a far better reputation than UPenn.
NYU's Corporate Law Program is rated much higher than that of UPenn according to Brian Leiter's Top Law Schools by Specialty Area.
NYU's is located in New York and you won't find a better location than this as far a legal practice is concerned. NY has 16 super elite firms' offices out of which 8 are headquartered there.
Maximum hiring takes place in New York than any other place and most New York firms prefer to hire from NY schools. Therefore it appears that being at NYU is much more advantageous.
I am sure you would be aware of most of the information but I guess need to hear it out from people to make up your mind.
anyway, best of luck choosing between two gr8 schools.
quote
fc

Yeah. But I think the main problem with NYU is the large class size, and the high acceptance rate. From about 2000 applicants 425 get it. Almost 25%. In Upenn is 1100 for 90 seats. 8%. More selective. Am I wrong? And NY is a much expensive city.
I agree with myadav09. This is just the counter arguments.

Yeah. But I think the main problem with NYU is the large class size, and the high acceptance rate. From about 2000 applicants 425 get it. Almost 25%. In Upenn is 1100 for 90 seats. 8%. More selective. Am I wrong? And NY is a much expensive city.
I agree with myadav09. This is just the counter arguments.
quote
JVW

Thank you for the info,
problem though is:
my heart says PennLaw (Smaller class sizes, more selective, history ivy league)
but my mind says NYU (better reputation, higher ranking, more opportunities)

Thank you for the info,
problem though is:
my heart says PennLaw (Smaller class sizes, more selective, history ivy league)
but my mind says NYU (better reputation, higher ranking, more opportunities)
quote
Santa

Very hard decision. Me personally I would go for Penn because:

1. Smaller class size -> very important element for an LLM.
2. Less expensive
3. Classes with JD students: at NYU there are classes only for LLMs.

--> With this you will almost certainly be guided better by faculty at Penn, where you will be left to yourself at NYU.

On the other hand NYU might have a slightly better name, but unless you want to go to work in NY (which will be very difficult anyways in the next few years) I think you will like your experience more at Penn.

Very hard decision. Me personally I would go for Penn because:

1. Smaller class size -> very important element for an LLM.
2. Less expensive
3. Classes with JD students: at NYU there are classes only for LLMs.

--> With this you will almost certainly be guided better by faculty at Penn, where you will be left to yourself at NYU.

On the other hand NYU might have a slightly better name, but unless you want to go to work in NY (which will be very difficult anyways in the next few years) I think you will like your experience more at Penn.

quote
mav09

I am not sure about relative sizes as far as corporate law programs of both universities are concerned. NYU does have a very huge Tax LLM class but I guess Corporate Law classes have a smaller group.
I would also like to distinguish as far as selectivity is concerned, acceptance rates( roughly 25%) at NYU are higher considering the fact that they have around 450 seats and acceptance rate( around 17%) for UPenn is lower considering the fact that they have 90 seats to offer.
It does not mean that students admitted at UPenn have better credentials that those admitted to NYU. If someone feels that anyone can get admitted to NYU because they have large number seats to offer is highly mistaken. Believe me merit is never discounted to fill in seats.
I keep coming across Ivy league as an explanation for choosing a law school, which is the most absurd reasoning. No law school in the world would give much weight to sports and recreational activities as the real strength of lawyers remain in academics or activities centered around academics.
If it was a love interest or emotional bonding related advice, I would for sure advice you to go with your heart but I guess career related decisions must me made rationally and with concrete evaluations.

I am not sure about relative sizes as far as corporate law programs of both universities are concerned. NYU does have a very huge Tax LLM class but I guess Corporate Law classes have a smaller group.
I would also like to distinguish as far as selectivity is concerned, acceptance rates( roughly 25%) at NYU are higher considering the fact that they have around 450 seats and acceptance rate( around 17%) for UPenn is lower considering the fact that they have 90 seats to offer.
It does not mean that students admitted at UPenn have better credentials that those admitted to NYU. If someone feels that anyone can get admitted to NYU because they have large number seats to offer is highly mistaken. Believe me merit is never discounted to fill in seats.
I keep coming across Ivy league as an explanation for choosing a law school, which is the most absurd reasoning. No law school in the world would give much weight to sports and recreational activities as the real strength of lawyers remain in academics or activities centered around academics.
If it was a love interest or emotional bonding related advice, I would for sure advice you to go with your heart but I guess career related decisions must me made rationally and with concrete evaluations.

quote
Gab2009

Can't help here! Get so confused about big and small classes!
good luck anyway!

Can't help here! Get so confused about big and small classes!
good luck anyway!
quote
meetmeannu

i have gone through all the post here and I can say for sure that Penn is far more better than NYU. The NYU is usually referred as good marketing school while the Penn has its own reputation in respect of all aspects. The professors at Penn are on permanent appointment and all they are learned scholar from Yale, Harvard while at other law schools like NYU, the faculties subsequently opt for higher government jobs. Anyway, if I get both options, I will go for Penn.

i have gone through all the post here and I can say for sure that Penn is far more better than NYU. The NYU is usually referred as good marketing school while the Penn has its own reputation in respect of all aspects. The professors at Penn are on permanent appointment and all they are learned scholar from Yale, Harvard while at other law schools like NYU, the faculties subsequently opt for higher government jobs. Anyway, if I get both options, I will go for Penn.
quote
Ostriker

... Corporate Law Program is rated much higher than that of UPenn according to Brian Leiter's Top Law Schools by Specialty Area. ...


I couldn't find any Leiter ranking rated by corporate respectively speciality area?!?

<blockquote>... Corporate Law Program is rated much higher than that of UPenn according to Brian Leiter's Top Law Schools by Specialty Area. ...</blockquote>

I couldn't find any Leiter ranking rated by corporate respectively speciality area?!?
quote
mav09

We are free to choose a school whichever way we want but I guess the real purpose of this discussion it to evaluate which would be a smarter choice.
Please I don't mean to offend Santa or anyone else but would like to debate the logic behind these statements.
Dealing with Point No. 1 & 3
1. Smaller class size -> very important element for an LLM.
Now, I have heard this lot of times that smaller class sizes are very important but so far have not come across a very sound explanation. The key questions that arise are:
a) What is a small class?
b) Would a small class signify a better atmosphere, a more serious approach, more attentiveness in class?
c) Would a small class signify better attention by faculty?
d) Would a smaller class produce better students?
e) What are the advantages and disadvantages of studying in a small class?

a) A small class is not very clearly defined however references and exerts from universities, its colleges and professors indicate that ideally a small class is one where student-to-faculty ratio is 13:1, ensuring plenty of personal interaction with your professors.
Now this definition is found in co-relation to a specific class setting and more particularly to those confined to high schools and may not have a direct relationship with professional education which is usually on a much higher footing.
Now let this be contrasted with a definition of large class which is as follows:

This question was put to some senior academics attending a UNESCO Regional Workshop on Teaching and Learning in Higher Education. . Here are excerpts of views expressed.

There is nothing like a large class. The large class is only in the mind of the orthodox teacher
A large class is one with more students than available facilities can support
Large classes have more than 100 students enrolled
There is no fixed number. The large class depends on the discipline- smaller number for engineering, science and medicine and larger number for the arts, humanities, and social sciences

There is no agreed definition of a large class in the literature, nor should there be. One persons large class is what some others consider as regular, small or normal.
Result thus it is the relative class size that requires consideration. A class should be considered larger if resources cannot cope up with student requirements at optimum levels. Now a class at Yale or Stanford which has 12 to 15 students in corporate law course is relatively smaller class in comparison to that of UPenn or any other schools which have comparatively large class sizes.

More or less Corporate Law Class at NYU has 55 to 60 students and I guess that a Class at UPenn will have the same number of students or more since LLM students will be taking classes with JD students. Therefore I am very unsure of the fact whether UPenn Class setting will be any better than that of NYU in terms of class size.

In relation to the above questions, the most primary query is how class sizes affect students. The response to this brings out a mixed result. Different class sizes have been found suitable keeping in mind several other factors.
Advantages of small class.
Individual attention from Professors
Feedback on performance
appears to be most needed for students with low motivation, those with little knowledge of the subject matter, or those who have difficulty grasping conceptual material.
Advantages of large class
Increased Student Achievement
Better social skills and increased social interactions and networking
Increased attentiveness in class

Each class setting has its advantages and disadvantages, however research suggests that what counts is not the size of the class, but the quality of the teaching. Research suggests that the key to effective instruction and student learning, regardless of class size, is engaging students in active learning.
I hope we have better evidence in relation to smaller class sizes and their vital importance to LLM classes considering the fact that most students have superior skills and above average IQs when academic performance is concerned and would a larger class size handicap their performance and detrimentally affect their learning curve.
Last but not the least which I would like to repeat here is that NYU Corporate Law class will not be any larger than UPenn corporate Law class.



We are free to choose a school whichever way we want but I guess the real purpose of this discussion it to evaluate which would be a smarter choice.
Please I don't mean to offend Santa or anyone else but would like to debate the logic behind these statements.
Dealing with Point No. 1 & 3
1. Smaller class size -> very important element for an LLM.
Now, I have heard this lot of times that smaller class sizes are very important but so far have not come across a very sound explanation. The key questions that arise are:
a) What is a small class?
b) Would a small class signify a better atmosphere, a more serious approach, more attentiveness in class?
c) Would a small class signify better attention by faculty?
d) Would a smaller class produce better students?
e) What are the advantages and disadvantages of studying in a small class?

a) A small class is not very clearly defined however references and exerts from universities, its colleges and professors indicate that ideally a small class is one where student-to-faculty ratio is 13:1, ensuring plenty of personal interaction with your professors.
Now this definition is found in co-relation to a specific class setting and more particularly to those confined to high schools and may not have a direct relationship with professional education which is usually on a much higher footing.
Now let this be contrasted with a definition of large class which is as follows:

This question was put to some senior academics attending a UNESCO Regional Workshop on Teaching and Learning in Higher Education. . Here are excerpts of views expressed.

• “There is nothing like a large class. The large class is only in the mind of the orthodox teacher”
• “A large class is one with more students than available facilities can support”
• “Large classes have more than 100 students enrolled”
• “There is no fixed number. The large class depends on the discipline- smaller number for engineering, science and medicine and larger number for the arts, humanities, and social sciences”

There is no agreed definition of a large class in the literature, nor should there be. One person’s large class is what some others consider as ‘regular’, ‘small’ or ‘normal’.
Result thus it is the relative class size that requires consideration. A class should be considered larger if resources cannot cope up with student requirements at optimum levels. Now a class at Yale or Stanford which has 12 to 15 students in corporate law course is relatively smaller class in comparison to that of UPenn or any other schools which have comparatively large class sizes.

More or less Corporate Law Class at NYU has 55 to 60 students and I guess that a Class at UPenn will have the same number of students or more since LLM students will be taking classes with JD students. Therefore I am very unsure of the fact whether UPenn Class setting will be any better than that of NYU in terms of class size.

In relation to the above questions, the most primary query is how class sizes affect students. The response to this brings out a mixed result. Different class sizes have been found suitable keeping in mind several other factors.
Advantages of small class.
Individual attention from Professors
Feedback on performance
appears to be most needed for students with low motivation, those with little knowledge of the subject matter, or those who have difficulty grasping conceptual material.
Advantages of large class
Increased Student Achievement
Better social skills and increased social interactions and networking
Increased attentiveness in class

Each class setting has its advantages and disadvantages, however research suggests that what counts is not the size of the class, but the quality of the teaching. Research suggests that the key to effective instruction and student learning, regardless of class size, is engaging students in active learning.
I hope we have better evidence in relation to smaller class sizes and their vital importance to LLM classes considering the fact that most students have superior skills and above average IQs when academic performance is concerned and would a larger class size handicap their performance and detrimentally affect their learning curve.
Last but not the least which I would like to repeat here is that NYU Corporate Law class will not be any larger than UPenn corporate Law class.
quote
mav09

... Corporate Law Program is rated much higher than that of UPenn according to Brian Leiter's Top Law Schools by Specialty Area. ...


I couldn't find any Leiter ranking rated by corporate respectively speciality area?!?


http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2002faculty_topchoices.shtml

<blockquote><blockquote>... Corporate Law Program is rated much higher than that of UPenn according to Brian Leiter's Top Law Schools by Specialty Area. ...</blockquote>

I couldn't find any Leiter ranking rated by corporate respectively speciality area?!?</blockquote>

http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2002faculty_topchoices.shtml
quote
wolla

... Corporate Law Program is rated much higher than that of UPenn according to Brian Leiter's Top Law Schools by Specialty Area. ...


I couldn't find any Leiter ranking rated by corporate respectively speciality area?!?



http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2002faculty_topchoices.shtml


I guess you have noted that those rankings are from 2002/2003?

<blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>... Corporate Law Program is rated much higher than that of UPenn according to Brian Leiter's Top Law Schools by Specialty Area. ...</blockquote>

I couldn't find any Leiter ranking rated by corporate respectively speciality area?!?</blockquote>


http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2002faculty_topchoices.shtml</blockquote>

I guess you have noted that those rankings are from 2002/2003?
quote
mav09

... Corporate Law Program is rated much higher than that of UPenn according to Brian Leiter's Top Law Schools by Specialty Area. ...


I couldn't find any Leiter ranking rated by corporate respectively speciality area?!?



http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2002faculty_topchoices.shtml


I guess you have noted that those rankings are from 2002/2003?

Yes, I know that they are old and no new ranking for specialty areas are available. I am not sure if they have changed much in the last 5 years since the US News rankings have remained almost the same in the top 10 places with little movement. They may not be completely valid today but can certainly be used as reference points.

<blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>... Corporate Law Program is rated much higher than that of UPenn according to Brian Leiter's Top Law Schools by Specialty Area. ...</blockquote>

I couldn't find any Leiter ranking rated by corporate respectively speciality area?!?</blockquote>


http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2002faculty_topchoices.shtml</blockquote>

I guess you have noted that those rankings are from 2002/2003?</blockquote>
Yes, I know that they are old and no new ranking for specialty areas are available. I am not sure if they have changed much in the last 5 years since the US News rankings have remained almost the same in the top 10 places with little movement. They may not be completely valid today but can certainly be used as reference points.
quote
mav09

i have gone through all the post here and I can say for sure that Penn is far more better than NYU. The NYU is usually referred as good marketing school while the Penn has its own reputation in respect of all aspects. The professors at Penn are on permanent appointment and all they are learned scholar from Yale, Harvard while at other law schools like NYU, the faculties subsequently opt for higher government jobs. Anyway, if I get both options, I will go for Penn.


Dear Anurag,
I am not really convinced with your post and its contents.
I believe that both the schools have very good faculty and have some very impressive professors.
for eg.
Prof. Jonathan Klick at UPenn takes up law and economics and corporate law subjects is an upcoming star however compared to Richard Epstein who is the most noted of all other professors as far as Law and economics is concerned teaches the same at NYU.
Prof. Jonathan Klick
Education
J.D. - George Mason University
Ph.D. (economics) - George Mason University
M.S. - University of Maryland
B.S. - Villanova University

Prof Richard Epstien
Education
B.A. Columbia University
B.A. Oxford University
J.D. Yale Law School

Another example
Jill E. Fisch Noted faculty at UPenn and teaches Corporations
Education
J.D. - Yale
B.A. - Cornell
Stephen Choi Faculty at NYU and teaches Corporations
Education
Ph.D. (Economics), Harvard University
J.D., Harvard Law School, magna cum laude
A.B. (Economics), Harvard College, magna cum laude

The aforementioned comparison of the respective faculty at NYU and UPenn shows that none of them are any less than the other.

<blockquote>i have gone through all the post here and I can say for sure that Penn is far more better than NYU. The NYU is usually referred as good marketing school while the Penn has its own reputation in respect of all aspects. The professors at Penn are on permanent appointment and all they are learned scholar from Yale, Harvard while at other law schools like NYU, the faculties subsequently opt for higher government jobs. Anyway, if I get both options, I will go for Penn.</blockquote>

Dear Anurag,
I am not really convinced with your post and its contents.
I believe that both the schools have very good faculty and have some very impressive professors.
for eg.
Prof. Jonathan Klick at UPenn takes up law and economics and corporate law subjects is an upcoming star however compared to Richard Epstein who is the most noted of all other professors as far as Law and economics is concerned teaches the same at NYU.
Prof. Jonathan Klick
Education
J.D. - George Mason University
Ph.D. (economics) - George Mason University
M.S. - University of Maryland
B.S. - Villanova University

Prof Richard Epstien
Education
B.A. Columbia University
B.A. Oxford University
J.D. Yale Law School

Another example
Jill E. Fisch Noted faculty at UPenn and teaches Corporations
Education
J.D. - Yale
B.A. - Cornell
Stephen Choi Faculty at NYU and teaches Corporations
Education
Ph.D. (Economics), Harvard University
J.D., Harvard Law School, magna cum laude
A.B. (Economics), Harvard College, magna cum laude

The aforementioned comparison of the respective faculty at NYU and UPenn shows that none of them are any less than the other.



quote

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