LSE vs UPENN vs NYU


dmannell
Hello Guys,

I also have a huge dillema. I have been accepted to LSE, UPENN and NYU. I am from Canada and I really want to practise law in the USA for a couple of years. I think the possibility of doing the Wharton Business and Law Certificate makes UPENN more attractive than NYU? Any substantial thoughts?

What about LSE? its less money and it is a big factor in my decision. However, I don't think it would really help landing a job in New York. Moreover, ill be passing the New York Bar exams this july. Therefore I will enter the LLM, hopefully, as a New York attorney-at-law. Sure can help in the job search.

Please help me in deciding between LSE or UPENN + (hopefully Wharton)
Hello Guys,

I also have a huge dillema. I have been accepted to LSE, UPENN and NYU. I am from Canada and I really want to practise law in the USA for a couple of years. I think the possibility of doing the Wharton Business and Law Certificate makes UPENN more attractive than NYU? Any substantial thoughts?

What about LSE? its less money and it is a big factor in my decision. However, I don't think it would really help landing a job in New York. Moreover, ill be passing the New York Bar exams this july. Therefore I will enter the LLM, hopefully, as a New York attorney-at-law. Sure can help in the job search.

Please help me in deciding between LSE or UPENN + (hopefully Wharton)

quote
Bla Bla
I agree that between NYU. And UPenn is a tough decision. But LSE isn't comparable to UPenn (my opinion).
I agree that between NYU. And UPenn is a tough decision. But LSE isn't comparable to UPenn (my opinion).
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If you really want to work in New York, U Penn will help a lot more than LSE. But the New York legal market is truly abysmal right now. Most American JD graduates are having substantial difficulty finding jobs, a lot of young attorneys have been laid off en masse, and there is simply no sign of recovery yet (in fact, I know at least a couple of people who were laid off within the past couple of months after they thought that they were safe). So, it is going to be extremely tough to get something in New York. Being admitted already should help a bit and the career service connections from Penn might help, but there are really no guarantees at all in this market.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news...
If you really want to work in New York, U Penn will help a lot more than LSE. But the New York legal market is truly abysmal right now. Most American JD graduates are having substantial difficulty finding jobs, a lot of young attorneys have been laid off en masse, and there is simply no sign of recovery yet (in fact, I know at least a couple of people who were laid off within the past couple of months after they thought that they were safe). So, it is going to be extremely tough to get something in New York. Being admitted already should help a bit and the career service connections from Penn might help, but there are really no guarantees at all in this market.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news...
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Oops, somehow missed that you were also considering NYU. I would say that between NYU and Penn, you would probably have better luck finding a job in New York from NYU because firms will be more likely to interview someone already in town. It's kinda stupid, but if the interview will cost them $200 in train fare, they are less likely to do it.
Oops, somehow missed that you were also considering NYU. I would say that between NYU and Penn, you would probably have better luck finding a job in New York from NYU because firms will be more likely to interview someone already in town. It's kinda stupid, but if the interview will cost them $200 in train fare, they are less likely to do it.
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dmannell
Thank you very much NYC_Charles,

I agree with you that UPENN/NYU are far ahead of LSE in so far as the New York legal market is concerned.

My choice really comes down between UPENN and NYU but I must say that I really like the fact that UPENN is an Ivy League and they have a career fair of their own (including HLS, CLS, YLS, Cornell and probably NYU)..Much more privileged to be part of that tradition.


However, I so agree that by being in New York city it might easier to network and get interviews, though I wouldn't discount or disregard yet UPENN out of the race!!!

It is well respected across the USA and classes are much smaller than at NYU so perhaps it'll be easier to stand out of the crowd.

That being said, I wold really appreciate if you could find more positive arguments for UPENN as against NYU?

Thank you!
Thank you very much NYC_Charles,

I agree with you that UPENN/NYU are far ahead of LSE in so far as the New York legal market is concerned.

My choice really comes down between UPENN and NYU but I must say that I really like the fact that UPENN is an Ivy League and they have a career fair of their own (including HLS, CLS, YLS, Cornell and probably NYU)..Much more privileged to be part of that tradition.


However, I so agree that by being in New York city it might easier to network and get interviews, though I wouldn't discount or disregard yet UPENN out of the race!!!

It is well respected across the USA and classes are much smaller than at NYU so perhaps it'll be easier to stand out of the crowd.

That being said, I wold really appreciate if you could find more positive arguments for UPENN as against NYU?

Thank you!
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dmannell
There is one thing that Yale or Oxford or UPENN or LSE or any other law school will ever teach its law students, that is to say, how to persevere and to fight to achieve what you want:)

Many years ago, I played baseball at a very high level in Canada and in the USA and year after year I was called the "underdog" and people kept on telling me that it was impossible to maybe get drafted or play at such position....but they were simply mesmerised with what perseverance and commitment can affect someone's career:)

I know the New York legal market is profoundly bad, but I think there is one always room for excellency and for fighters! Sure luck always helps!
There is one thing that Yale or Oxford or UPENN or LSE or any other law school will ever teach its law students, that is to say, how to persevere and to fight to achieve what you want:)

Many years ago, I played baseball at a very high level in Canada and in the USA and year after year I was called the "underdog" and people kept on telling me that it was impossible to maybe get drafted or play at such position....but they were simply mesmerised with what perseverance and commitment can affect someone's career:)

I know the New York legal market is profoundly bad, but I think there is one always room for excellency and for fighters! Sure luck always helps!
quote
Both are very good law schools. Honestly, I haven't looked at the two schools enough recently to be able to say much either way (since I already have an American JD, I have only been looking at universities in the UK and (funnily enough) Canada).

What I can tell you is pretty limited - for instance, I can tell you that the neighborhood NYU is in is far cooler than the one UPenn is in. NYU is in the heart of Greenwich Village, so there are all sorts of things to do around campus, plus Washington Square Park is a nice place to go sit and read when the weather is nice. UPenn (again, from my limited experience) is more out of the way, so that there isn't as much around to do. Of course, housing near UPenn is probably half the cost of a crappy apartment near NYU.

FWIW, the NYU law student housing is decent but small - basically smallish bedrooms off of a smallish shared kitchen and bathroom, but no shared living area (I actually lived in one of their units about six summers ago when I was interning at White & Case).
Both are very good law schools. Honestly, I haven't looked at the two schools enough recently to be able to say much either way (since I already have an American JD, I have only been looking at universities in the UK and (funnily enough) Canada).

What I can tell you is pretty limited - for instance, I can tell you that the neighborhood NYU is in is far cooler than the one UPenn is in. NYU is in the heart of Greenwich Village, so there are all sorts of things to do around campus, plus Washington Square Park is a nice place to go sit and read when the weather is nice. UPenn (again, from my limited experience) is more out of the way, so that there isn't as much around to do. Of course, housing near UPenn is probably half the cost of a crappy apartment near NYU.

FWIW, the NYU law student housing is decent but small - basically smallish bedrooms off of a smallish shared kitchen and bathroom, but no shared living area (I actually lived in one of their units about six summers ago when I was interning at White & Case).
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dmannell
Hello NYC_Charles,

I need youur honest opinion. I have to make a decision between UPENN and LSE?

I was thinking that I should work for a year in a Canadian law firm and apply to HLS, CLS and NYU to study corporate law in the USA in 2011-2012. There is also a money issue as I have to fund everything myself.

Should I stick to UPENN or take my chances next year with more reputable law schools, ie HLS and CLS?

Will UPENN help me to some extent get a job in the USA as a lawyer, more specifically in New York?

Its such a big life decision that I really want to do it right and for the right reasons.

I appreciate the time you will take to answer my questions.

Regards,
Hello NYC_Charles,

I need youur honest opinion. I have to make a decision between UPENN and LSE?

I was thinking that I should work for a year in a Canadian law firm and apply to HLS, CLS and NYU to study corporate law in the USA in 2011-2012. There is also a money issue as I have to fund everything myself.

Should I stick to UPENN or take my chances next year with more reputable law schools, ie HLS and CLS?

Will UPENN help me to some extent get a job in the USA as a lawyer, more specifically in New York?

Its such a big life decision that I really want to do it right and for the right reasons.

I appreciate the time you will take to answer my questions.

Regards,
quote
dmannell
I should also mention that I have differed for a year due to my lack of funding..... I would have love to go to UPENN next year but ill have to be patient....

I suppose the legal market in New York should be there in 2012 when i'll be applying for jobs?

There is also some merits in considering doing/applying for the Wharton Business and Law Certificate. Perhaps it would compensate, reputation wise, as against HLS and CLS with that opportunity of doing LLM/Wharton.....

Only food for thoughts and you seemed to be someone who has experienced all the education and working experiences in the USA, thus I seriously appreciate your input.

Regards,
I should also mention that I have differed for a year due to my lack of funding..... I would have love to go to UPENN next year but ill have to be patient....

I suppose the legal market in New York should be there in 2012 when i'll be applying for jobs?

There is also some merits in considering doing/applying for the Wharton Business and Law Certificate. Perhaps it would compensate, reputation wise, as against HLS and CLS with that opportunity of doing LLM/Wharton.....

Only food for thoughts and you seemed to be someone who has experienced all the education and working experiences in the USA, thus I seriously appreciate your input.

Regards,
quote
gdizz01
I would NOT factor a wharton certificate into your prestige calculations. Taking 2-4 courses at Wharton doesn't add much to a penn law degree (besides a certificate saying as much)...also, if you dig deeper, the courses offered to law students pursuing this certificate are not very technical or even very pertinent courses. If you wind up at Penn for other reasons, by all means get the certificate, but the addition of this cridential should in no means be dispositive of your search.

If you are very concerned with debt, go to LSE

Don't let the semantics of ivy versus not ivy influence you, unless you just want to tell people you "went to an ivy league school." The "ivy league" was the first college football league which happened to include the "ivy league schools"...it doesn't say anything relevant about the schools, except that they are old, and their names carry a lot of prestige. However, one can easily argue that there are more prestigious schools (such as U Chicago, Berkeley, MIT, Duke, etc.). I'm not sure what the numbers look like after the legal market collapse, but last I checked, Columbia and Chicago had the highest placement rates into top firms, followed by nyu, penn, and then harvard somewhere down the list (which might be because they place more in clerkships and government, but this is somewhat irrelevant.

As much as people love to knit pick about prestige between schools 1 spot on the US News ranking apart, if you're chosing among a handful of top 5-10 schools, you need to look beyond simply prestige and check out the programs, neighborhoods, etc. You will succeed graduating from any of them.

And just to coroborate what someone said earlier, NYU's campus is immeasurably cooler than UPenn's. My sister goes to (and lives within walking distance from) wharton, and I work in manhattan, and I would NEVER pick her area over mine for quality of life or entertainment value- NYU might be in one of the most fun and interesting neighborhoods on the planet. The only thing her area wins on is affordability- it is WAYYYYY cheaper than NYU in all cost of living aspects.

just my $.02
I would NOT factor a wharton certificate into your prestige calculations. Taking 2-4 courses at Wharton doesn't add much to a penn law degree (besides a certificate saying as much)...also, if you dig deeper, the courses offered to law students pursuing this certificate are not very technical or even very pertinent courses. If you wind up at Penn for other reasons, by all means get the certificate, but the addition of this cridential should in no means be dispositive of your search.

If you are very concerned with debt, go to LSE

Don't let the semantics of ivy versus not ivy influence you, unless you just want to tell people you "went to an ivy league school." The "ivy league" was the first college football league which happened to include the "ivy league schools"...it doesn't say anything relevant about the schools, except that they are old, and their names carry a lot of prestige. However, one can easily argue that there are more prestigious schools (such as U Chicago, Berkeley, MIT, Duke, etc.). I'm not sure what the numbers look like after the legal market collapse, but last I checked, Columbia and Chicago had the highest placement rates into top firms, followed by nyu, penn, and then harvard somewhere down the list (which might be because they place more in clerkships and government, but this is somewhat irrelevant.

As much as people love to knit pick about prestige between schools 1 spot on the US News ranking apart, if you're chosing among a handful of top 5-10 schools, you need to look beyond simply prestige and check out the programs, neighborhoods, etc. You will succeed graduating from any of them.

And just to coroborate what someone said earlier, NYU's campus is immeasurably cooler than UPenn's. My sister goes to (and lives within walking distance from) wharton, and I work in manhattan, and I would NEVER pick her area over mine for quality of life or entertainment value- NYU might be in one of the most fun and interesting neighborhoods on the planet. The only thing her area wins on is affordability- it is WAYYYYY cheaper than NYU in all cost of living aspects.

just my $.02
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dmannell
Hey gdizz01,

I must say that I really enjoyed your comments as I think they are fair and most probably accurate. As for the Wharton Certificate, you are probable ritght that i wont gain much more to m y UPENN LLM. I was actually in London yesterday (connecting flyght to Montreal) and I just realised that after having lived 4 years in Dublin, London is , although not in all aspects, quite similar to Dublin and I simply do not want to experience another similar year even though its London/LSE. I am convinced that a TOP US Law School has much more to offer for working as a lawyer in the USA and Canada than LSE.

I really like UPENN's programme and the fact that is cheaper to New York ( I will most likely end up in new York anyway coz I will have the NYB in my pocktet in July before entering the LLM)> It should really give me a competitive edge in the sense that while doing the LLM I will be employable....only some thoughts....

I have doubt that NYU's campus and the life in Manhattan is uncomparable to any other US city or that extent any other place in the World....

Columbia was my first choice but I got rejected. In your opinion, should I re-apply next year ( i have decided to differ for a year UPENN's offer) and work in a top Canadian law firm and try my chances at Columbia (corporate and securities programme) and go ahead with UPENN for less money but not the same prestige, programme and institution and campus life:)

I would really appreciate if you could convey some of your thoughts as to what might be the better choice between going to UPENN or re-applying to Columbia or Harvard, for example.

Thanks!
Hey gdizz01,

I must say that I really enjoyed your comments as I think they are fair and most probably accurate. As for the Wharton Certificate, you are probable ritght that i wont gain much more to m y UPENN LLM. I was actually in London yesterday (connecting flyght to Montreal) and I just realised that after having lived 4 years in Dublin, London is , although not in all aspects, quite similar to Dublin and I simply do not want to experience another similar year even though its London/LSE. I am convinced that a TOP US Law School has much more to offer for working as a lawyer in the USA and Canada than LSE.

I really like UPENN's programme and the fact that is cheaper to New York ( I will most likely end up in new York anyway coz I will have the NYB in my pocktet in July before entering the LLM)> It should really give me a competitive edge in the sense that while doing the LLM I will be employable....only some thoughts....

I have doubt that NYU's campus and the life in Manhattan is uncomparable to any other US city or that extent any other place in the World....

Columbia was my first choice but I got rejected. In your opinion, should I re-apply next year ( i have decided to differ for a year UPENN's offer) and work in a top Canadian law firm and try my chances at Columbia (corporate and securities programme) and go ahead with UPENN for less money but not the same prestige, programme and institution and campus life:)

I would really appreciate if you could convey some of your thoughts as to what might be the better choice between going to UPENN or re-applying to Columbia or Harvard, for example.

Thanks!
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LSE_2010
dmannell - Man, don't listen to the guys on the board. They are all just especulating. Talk to some lawyers and professors in NY or in your home country. Add your personal goals and what do you want to do, how much you want to spend. All top 10 are great. CLS is no better than UPenn. The Wharton Certificate is very good and you can choose from a list of interesting subjects. The deal is, after the LLM no one cares if you went to UPenn, Chicago, CLS, etc... It is all about what YOU can do afterwards.
dmannell - Man, don't listen to the guys on the board. They are all just especulating. Talk to some lawyers and professors in NY or in your home country. Add your personal goals and what do you want to do, how much you want to spend. All top 10 are great. CLS is no better than UPenn. The Wharton Certificate is very good and you can choose from a list of interesting subjects. The deal is, after the LLM no one cares if you went to UPenn, Chicago, CLS, etc... It is all about what YOU can do afterwards.
quote
lextra
dmannell - Man, don't listen to the guys on the board. They are all just especulating.


By your logic that means dmannell shouldn't listen to you, either.
<blockquote>dmannell - Man, don't listen to the guys on the board. They are all just especulating. </blockquote>

By your logic that means dmannell shouldn't listen to you, either.
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LSE_2010
lextra - Yes, yes indeed
lextra - Yes, yes indeed
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dmannell
Hey LSE_2010,

I totally agree with you! I have spent ridiculous amounts of time on these blogs and I can objectively say that it is the FIRST TIME I read something that pleases me. At the end of the day, there are other factors than a TOP US LLM that will be taken into account in getting a job. I personally thank you for those kind comments.

Its just that I really wanted to go to Columbia but I am convinced that i will have a great time as well at UPENN and the job opportunities, even according to all the pessimistic forecasts, will invariably be quite similar I so believe.

Thanks again:) very smart comments and I truly mean it!

Cheers
Hey LSE_2010,

I totally agree with you! I have spent ridiculous amounts of time on these blogs and I can objectively say that it is the FIRST TIME I read something that pleases me. At the end of the day, there are other factors than a TOP US LLM that will be taken into account in getting a job. I personally thank you for those kind comments.

Its just that I really wanted to go to Columbia but I am convinced that i will have a great time as well at UPENN and the job opportunities, even according to all the pessimistic forecasts, will invariably be quite similar I so believe.

Thanks again:) very smart comments and I truly mean it!

Cheers
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lawmaker
NYU!
NYU!
quote
dmannell
Hey lawmaker,

Do you think job opportunities are greater with an LLM from NYU than from UPENN? If so, please just write a couple of reasons why you think so?

Thanks
Hey lawmaker,

Do you think job opportunities are greater with an LLM from NYU than from UPENN? If so, please just write a couple of reasons why you think so?

Thanks
quote
lawmaker
Location, job opportunities, convenience to take interview in NYC, broad alumni network, and so on.
Location, job opportunities, convenience to take interview in NYC, broad alumni network, and so on.
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dmannell
I understand what you are saying!!! You are right!

But what about the Wharton Certificate, isn't a huge plus for a potential employer vs NYU LLM?

Other than that, I know that NYU has probably much more to offer in the light of employement prospects, location, etc.

But should I try to re-apply to Columbia? I believe that for corporate law it is the best in the world-even ahead of Harvard!

I have a job lined up for next year and I know that Columbia are expecting candidates to have acquired prior working experince.

thanks
I understand what you are saying!!! You are right!

But what about the Wharton Certificate, isn't a huge plus for a potential employer vs NYU LLM?

Other than that, I know that NYU has probably much more to offer in the light of employement prospects, location, etc.

But should I try to re-apply to Columbia? I believe that for corporate law it is the best in the world-even ahead of Harvard!

I have a job lined up for next year and I know that Columbia are expecting candidates to have acquired prior working experince.

thanks
quote
I would go with Upenn over NYU. NYU has over 400 LLMs. An employer will not interview simply because you are in the city. Philadelphia is only two hours away by bus and one hour by train.

Moreover, Upenn has better alumni connections. It is a more business oriented law school. What would you have to offer with a NYU LLM over someone who has done the Osgoode/NYU LLM program? I wouldn't choose the NYU LLM unless you wanted to another number in the sea of LLMs. You will get more individualized attention at Upenn. The class at Upenn is a lot more cohesive and the faculty is very supportive. I know many Upenn LLMs who received offers in the U.S. even in a dismal job market.

Moreover, it is more corporate oriented as not only will you have the opportunity to engage with Penn's esteemed corporate law faculty, but you will have the opportunity to be educated at Wharton.
I would go with Upenn over NYU. NYU has over 400 LLMs. An employer will not interview simply because you are in the city. Philadelphia is only two hours away by bus and one hour by train.

Moreover, Upenn has better alumni connections. It is a more business oriented law school. What would you have to offer with a NYU LLM over someone who has done the Osgoode/NYU LLM program? I wouldn't choose the NYU LLM unless you wanted to another number in the sea of LLMs. You will get more individualized attention at Upenn. The class at Upenn is a lot more cohesive and the faculty is very supportive. I know many Upenn LLMs who received offers in the U.S. even in a dismal job market.

Moreover, it is more corporate oriented as not only will you have the opportunity to engage with Penn's esteemed corporate law faculty, but you will have the opportunity to be educated at Wharton.
quote

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