LLM placement in the US


lawpartner

lol :-)... And before our resident spelling and grammar checker jumps on my case.... let me make a correction...

the humble shall be exalted and the exalted shall be humble correction .....

the humble shall be exalted and the exalted shall be humbled

Over to you, Mr. Spellchecker.. lol :-)))

lol :-)... And before our resident spelling and grammar checker jumps on my case.... let me make a correction...

“the humble shall be exalted and the exalted shall be humble”… correction .....

“the humble shall be exalted and the exalted shall be humbled”…

Over to you, Mr. Spellchecker.. lol :-)))
quote
Roberto27

Self-exaltation vilifies.

Self-exaltation vilifies.
quote
djvakil

lawpartner......i realize ur motivations may be genuine but there's a reason why you rile so many people up here.

take one of ur posts for example:

"lawpartner: And about the age and an LLM (sans JD) applying for a US job: If I am reviewing a resume of an LLM, I make the following deductions...
1) If he is 22-23 and did an LLM, he had his father's money to burn
2) If he is above that age, then either he has an extremely generous father or an extremely impractical lending institute or has stacks of money himself.

In both of the above scenarios, I throw the resume in the trash can and start looking for a JD. "

first of an actual law partner.......who actually dictates his firms employment policies wont spend the better part of his day on an llm student board..........especially when he's here to devalue it!

but in the offchance ur actually a "partner".......(lol it so hard to call u partner without using the quotes! :))

avoid rash and over generalisation of posts like the one i posted above. a great majority of the students on this board self-finance their course and work hard to accomplish their goals.

as far as "impractical lending institutes" go.......i have no idea what that means. in this day and age no institute (no matter how well funded) throws money down the drain. and for ur information.....the Fulbright Program's primary scholarship for lawyers is the LLM.

so by all means contribute....criticize and share ur info and experience.....just avoid being needlessly condescending and patronizing.

lawpartner......i realize ur motivations may be genuine but there's a reason why you rile so many people up here.

take one of ur posts for example:

"lawpartner: And about the age and an LLM (sans JD) applying for a US job: If I am reviewing a resume of an LLM, I make the following deductions...
1) If he is 22-23 and did an LLM, he had his father's money to burn
2) If he is above that age, then either he has an extremely generous father or an extremely impractical lending institute or has stacks of money himself.

In both of the above scenarios, I throw the resume in the trash can and start looking for a JD. "

first of an actual law partner.......who actually dictates his firms employment policies wont spend the better part of his day on an llm student board..........especially when he's here to devalue it!

but in the offchance ur actually a "partner".......(lol it so hard to call u partner without using the quotes! :))

avoid rash and over generalisation of posts like the one i posted above. a great majority of the students on this board self-finance their course and work hard to accomplish their goals.

as far as "impractical lending institutes" go.......i have no idea what that means. in this day and age no institute (no matter how well funded) throws money down the drain. and for ur information.....the Fulbright Program's primary scholarship for lawyers is the LLM.

so by all means contribute....criticize and share ur info and experience.....just avoid being needlessly condescending and patronizing.

quote
IntLaw

Lawpartner,
I am doing my LLB from India and am interested in pursuing LLM in either US or Canada. My intention is to settle in Canada or USA. I have applied for Canadian residency and would be expecting a result in a years time.
Do you think I should do LLM or do LLB from Canada? I must state that my academics are not very good. So top schools are out of question. Also, coming from middle class background, I find education fees in US very high for me. Canada seems to be a bit less expensive. Also, you seem to be against LLM and for JD. But how could someone like me, who would have difficulty paying for one year of LLM, can manage to pay for 3 years of JD? I find that inconsistent.
I found another thread on this site which states that I can appear for California bar without LLM? Is it true? What are your thoughts on that?
Also, on this thread, Morpheus said that LLM placements are Columbia and NYU have about 38 - 35%, Harvard 30% and Yale 25%. What is the source of this info Morpheus?
Thanking all of you in advance.

Lawpartner,
I am doing my LLB from India and am interested in pursuing LLM in either US or Canada. My intention is to settle in Canada or USA. I have applied for Canadian residency and would be expecting a result in a year’s time.
Do you think I should do LLM or do LLB from Canada? I must state that my academics are not very good. So top schools are out of question. Also, coming from middle class background, I find education fees in US very high for me. Canada seems to be a bit less expensive. Also, you seem to be against LLM and for JD. But how could someone like me, who would have difficulty paying for one year of LLM, can manage to pay for 3 years of JD? I find that inconsistent.
I found another thread on this site which states that I can appear for California bar without LLM? Is it true? What are your thoughts on that?
Also, on this thread, Morpheus said that LLM placements are “Columbia and NYU have about 38 - 35%, Harvard 30% and Yale 25%”. What is the source of this info Morpheus?
Thanking all of you in advance.
quote
lawpartner

Intlaw,

I do not claim to be an expert and do not claim to have all the answers. But I will try to respond to your queries.

I am doing my LLB from India and am interested in pursuing LLM in either US or Canada. My intention is to settle in Canada or USA. I have applied for Canadian residency and would be expecting a result in a years time. Do you think I should do LLM or do LLB from Canada?
I do not know about the Canadian market for LLMs so I would not be able to answer that question.

Also, you seem to be against LLM and for JD
I am neither against LLM nor for JD. I am just for taking an informed decision. Clarifying your own goals without ambiguity, doing research to find out the facts, taking an informed decision and then pursuing it with single minded determination and most importantly, enjoying what you are doingIn this case, as our friend Hannenyh calls it.. enjoying the LLM dance.


But how could someone like me, who would have difficulty paying for one year of LLM, can manage to pay for 3 years of JD? I find that inconsistent.
You are right. There is inconsistency here. But the point is after JD, you would be able to repay the debt. After LLM, you may not be able to.

I found another post on this site which states that I can appear for California bar without LLM? Is it true? What are your thoughts on that?
I do not know anything about being able to appear for bar exam without a JD or LLM. But that does not mean it is not possible. It just means I am ignorant of that fact.

Also, on this thread, Morpheus said that LLM placements are Columbia and NYU have about 38 - 35%, Harvard 30% and Yale 25%. What is the source of this info Morpheus?
I think this is a question for Morpheus.

I wish you the very best and hope you find out what is right for you. Good luck!!

Intlaw,

I do not claim to be an expert and do not claim to have all the answers. But I will try to respond to your queries.

“I am doing my LLB from India and am interested in pursuing LLM in either US or Canada. My intention is to settle in Canada or USA. I have applied for Canadian residency and would be expecting a result in a year’s time. Do you think I should do LLM or do LLB from Canada? “
I do not know about the Canadian market for LLMs so I would not be able to answer that question.

“Also, you seem to be against LLM and for JD”
I am neither against LLM nor for JD. I am just for taking an informed decision. Clarifying your own goals without ambiguity, doing research to find out the facts, taking an informed decision and then pursuing it with single minded determination and most importantly, enjoying what you are doing…In this case, as our friend Hannenyh calls it.. enjoying the LLM dance.


“But how could someone like me, who would have difficulty paying for one year of LLM, can manage to pay for 3 years of JD? I find that inconsistent.”
You are right. There is inconsistency here. But the point is – after JD, you would be able to repay the debt. After LLM, you may not be able to.

“I found another post on this site which states that I can appear for California bar without LLM? Is it true? What are your thoughts on that?”
I do not know anything about being able to appear for bar exam without a JD or LLM. But that does not mean it is not possible. It just means I am ignorant of that fact.

“Also, on this thread, Morpheus said that LLM placements are “Columbia and NYU have about 38 - 35%, Harvard 30% and Yale 25%”. What is the source of this info Morpheus?”
I think this is a question for Morpheus.

I wish you the very best and hope you find out what is right for you. Good luck!!



quote
morpheus

The data I referred to come from www.law.com. And this is only tentative for LLM, as they included JDs in the survey. Apologies, if it appeared to apply to LLMs directly. I should have emphasized that in the beginning. I believe there is no official statistics for the LLMs. Hope it clarifies.

The data I referred to come from www.law.com. And this is only tentative for LLM, as they included JDs in the survey. Apologies, if it appeared to apply to LLMs directly. I should have emphasized that in the beginning. I believe there is no official statistics for the LLMs. Hope it clarifies.
quote
Kazaf

I posted this in another thread, but I thought I should reproduce it here because it is relevant:
_______________________________________

There is obviously a lot of myth and confusion running around these boards about post-LLM careers in the US, so I thought it might be helpful for me to offer my own thoughts.

In general, this has been my experience: It is true that JD students have it much, much easier than LLM students in finding a law firm job in the US. However, some US law firms in the US do recruit LLM students, and if so, these are the general factors which inform them (I specifically asked all the law firms that made me offers, and their answers confirm my friends' job hunt experiences):

1. Location of your first law school - in general, people with LLBs from the English-speaking common law countries are most highly regarded (e.g. UK, Canada, Australia, then followed by India and Singapore).

2. Your English 'SPEAKING' abilities - law firms are less impressed by your TOEFL score, than your speaking abilities. American law firm partners tend to be very turned turned off by strong foreign accents.

3. Your LLM fall semester grades - since many firms recruit in the Spring, they will want to see your LLM fall semester grades. If your grades are excellent (especially at law schools like Harvard where the LLMs are placed on the same curve as the JDs), you will be highly regarded.

4. Your LLM school - law firms are DEFINITELY picky with this one. They essentially look a lot more at places like Harvard, Columbia and NYU. I would say it is COMPLETELY UNTRUE that you stand a better chance at Columbia than Harvard. The reason why placement is better at Columbia is probably more Columbia LLM students apply for jobs in the US, whereas the Harvard LLM class has a lot of people who are keen to return to their high profile public / academic positions in their own countries.

5. Relevant foreign language skills - certain languages are very high in demand (e.g. Mandarin, Japanese, Korean and Spanish). But these are more relevant if the firm is hoping to send you to a foreign office.

6. Your previous work experience - if you have relevant work experience, this is helpful, but this is certainly not the most important factor, compared to the above (because you will more than likely be a first-year or at most second-year associate in NY anyway).

7. Your cultural background - US law firm interviews are very different from their UK counterparts. Here, the partners are very keen to know about you to see whether you can comfortably fit into THEIR culture. E.g. during my interviews, I always somehow ended up talking about galleries, museums and theaters in London and Europe, my interest in Victorian literature and classical music.

Overall, I will say that if you are thinking of investing $60K (with loans) for your LLM with the sole aim of getting a job here, then think hard if you do not have most of the above.

I posted this in another thread, but I thought I should reproduce it here because it is relevant:
_______________________________________

There is obviously a lot of myth and confusion running around these boards about post-LLM careers in the US, so I thought it might be helpful for me to offer my own thoughts.

In general, this has been my experience: It is true that JD students have it much, much easier than LLM students in finding a law firm job in the US. However, some US law firms in the US do recruit LLM students, and if so, these are the general factors which inform them (I specifically asked all the law firms that made me offers, and their answers confirm my friends' job hunt experiences):

1. Location of your first law school - in general, people with LLBs from the English-speaking common law countries are most highly regarded (e.g. UK, Canada, Australia, then followed by India and Singapore).

2. Your English 'SPEAKING' abilities - law firms are less impressed by your TOEFL score, than your speaking abilities. American law firm partners tend to be very turned turned off by strong foreign accents.

3. Your LLM fall semester grades - since many firms recruit in the Spring, they will want to see your LLM fall semester grades. If your grades are excellent (especially at law schools like Harvard where the LLMs are placed on the same curve as the JDs), you will be highly regarded.

4. Your LLM school - law firms are DEFINITELY picky with this one. They essentially look a lot more at places like Harvard, Columbia and NYU. I would say it is COMPLETELY UNTRUE that you stand a better chance at Columbia than Harvard. The reason why placement is better at Columbia is probably more Columbia LLM students apply for jobs in the US, whereas the Harvard LLM class has a lot of people who are keen to return to their high profile public / academic positions in their own countries.

5. Relevant foreign language skills - certain languages are very high in demand (e.g. Mandarin, Japanese, Korean and Spanish). But these are more relevant if the firm is hoping to send you to a foreign office.

6. Your previous work experience - if you have relevant work experience, this is helpful, but this is certainly not the most important factor, compared to the above (because you will more than likely be a first-year or at most second-year associate in NY anyway).

7. Your cultural background - US law firm interviews are very different from their UK counterparts. Here, the partners are very keen to know about you to see whether you can comfortably fit into THEIR culture. E.g. during my interviews, I always somehow ended up talking about galleries, museums and theaters in London and Europe, my interest in Victorian literature and classical music.

Overall, I will say that if you are thinking of investing $60K (with loans) for your LLM with the sole aim of getting a job here, then think hard if you do not have most of the above.
quote
michal

Kazaf, I remember your posts from spring 2005. It's good to hear that you did go to HLS. What are your plans now?

michal

Kazaf, I remember your posts from spring 2005. It's good to hear that you did go to HLS. What are your plans now?

michal
quote
IntLaw

Thanks Morpheus for your candid confession. And thanks Kazaf for your input. And hearty congrat! However, my question would still remail that there seems to be no data on LLM placements. Lot of friends I talked to, who have done LLB from India and LLM from US, could not find permanent jobs. A senior of mine with top grades in his LLB did his LLM from Columbia, was top 10% there and could not find a job in US. He had to return to India to take up a job that did not pay a lot, compared to US salary. So that makes someone with modest means like me very jittery. As Kazaf rightly points out, there must be a lot of other factors besides your LLM that go into landing a job.

Thanks Morpheus for your candid confession. And thanks Kazaf for your input. And hearty congrat! However, my question would still remail that there seems to be no data on LLM placements. Lot of friends I talked to, who have done LLB from India and LLM from US, could not find permanent jobs. A senior of mine with top grades in his LLB did his LLM from Columbia, was top 10% there and could not find a job in US. He had to return to India to take up a job that did not pay a lot, compared to US salary. So that makes someone with modest means like me very jittery. As Kazaf rightly points out, there must be a lot of other factors besides your LLM that go into landing a job.
quote
IntLaw

And thanks Lawpartner for your very helpful PM. Though it does not solve my questions about how I can raise the money or how I can get a job, it points me in the right direction as far as how i should go about the whole process and the steps involved. And yes, I found answer to my earlier query.. one doesnt need JD or LLM to sit for bar if one has LLB from a common law country.

And thanks Lawpartner for your very helpful PM. Though it does not solve my questions about how I can raise the money or how I can get a job, it points me in the right direction as far as how i should go about the whole process and the steps involved. And yes, I found answer to my earlier query.. one doesnt need JD or LLM to sit for bar if one has LLB from a common law country.
quote

i think you merely prove the point that going to HLS (or other top 5/10 school) is a boon for anyone's career. you obviously did well in your LLB and ranked highly in your LLM classes which you shared w/ JD students.

however, once you venture outside the top 10 schools you really shouldn't set your sights on working for an international law firm, whether here in the US or back in your home country. it's possible, but quite difficult, at least if you want to work as a US associate and command US level compensation.

i did the full JD at a first tier school, but not top 10. more like 29 at the time, 1999-2002. even w/ a very good UK LLB behind me, fluency in relevant foreign languages, over 4 yrs work experience, 2 yrs living overseas, native english speaking, good grades etc it was nigh impossible to even land an interview with a half decent firm, whether for work here or back in London.

i now work for a small rural firm in the southwest US and still earn less than 40K, am now in my early 30s, and while i enjoy my job tremendously, i still harbor my earlier goal of working for a caliber firm either here or back in the UK oneday. obviously, a move back home to the UK right now would be a career-killer.


I posted this in another thread, but I thought I should reproduce it here because it is relevant:
_______________________________________

There is obviously a lot of myth and confusion running around these boards about post-LLM careers in the US, so I thought it might be helpful for me to offer my own thoughts.

I will start with some brief details about my background, so that you can understand where I am coming from. I am from a developing country, I obtained my LLB from a top law school in England, and I am doing the LLM now at Harvard. I have never worked before, so I am one of those 23-year-old inexperienced youngsters in our class of extremely talented and accomplished people here. I received job offers from four top Wall Street law firms to join their New York offices permanently as an associate after my LLM (these are the most 'prestigious' jobs which pay $145,000!).

In general, this has been my experience: It is true that JD students have it much, much easier than LLM students in finding a law firm job in the US. However, some US law firms in the US do recruit LLM students, and if so, these are the general factors which inform them (I specifically asked all the law firms that made me offers, and their answers confirm my friends' job hunt experiences):

1. Location of your first law school - in general, people with LLBs from the English-speaking common law countries are most highly regarded (e.g. UK, Canada, Australia, then followed by India and Singapore).

2. Your English 'SPEAKING' abilities - law firms are less impressed by your TOEFL score, than your speaking abilities. American law firm partners tend to be very turned turned off by strong foreign accents.

3. Your LLM fall semester grades - since many firms recruit in the Spring, they will want to see your LLM fall semester grades. If your grades are excellent (especially at law schools like Harvard where the LLMs are placed on the same curve as the JDs), you will be highly regarded.

4. Your LLM school - law firms are DEFINITELY picky with this one. They essentially look a lot more at places like Harvard, Columbia and NYU. I would say it is COMPLETELY UNTRUE that you stand a better chance at Columbia than Harvard. The reason why placement is better at Columbia is probably more Columbia LLM students apply for jobs in the US, whereas the Harvard LLM class has a lot of people who are keen to return to their high profile public / academic positions in their own countries.

5. Relevant foreign language skills - certain languages are very high in demand (e.g. Mandarin, Japanese, Korean and Spanish). But these are more relevant if the firm is hoping to send you to a foreign office.

6. Your previous work experience - if you have relevant work experience, this is helpful, but this is certainly not the most important factor, compared to the above (because you will more than likely be a first-year or at most second-year associate in NY anyway).

7. Your cultural background - US law firm interviews are very different from their UK counterparts. Here, the partners are very keen to know about you to see whether you can comfortably fit into THEIR culture. E.g. during my interviews, I always somehow ended up talking about galleries, museums and theaters in London and Europe, my interest in Victorian literature and classical music.

Overall, I will say that if you are thinking of investing $60K (with loans) for your LLM with the sole aim of getting a job here, then think hard if you do not have most of the above. I did not come to Harvard to get a job here; I had a job waiting for me with an international law firm back in London. I would have been reallly jittery otherwise, because $60K is a lot of money for someone from a developing country like me.

This year, the job market is good. About 50 of us have job offers in New York, bearing in mind that only less than a hundred applied in our class (all the judges, academics and civil servants in our class did not apply for jobs).

i think you merely prove the point that going to HLS (or other top 5/10 school) is a boon for anyone's career. you obviously did well in your LLB and ranked highly in your LLM classes which you shared w/ JD students.

however, once you venture outside the top 10 schools you really shouldn't set your sights on working for an international law firm, whether here in the US or back in your home country. it's possible, but quite difficult, at least if you want to work as a US associate and command US level compensation.

i did the full JD at a first tier school, but not top 10. more like 29 at the time, 1999-2002. even w/ a very good UK LLB behind me, fluency in relevant foreign languages, over 4 yrs work experience, 2 yrs living overseas, native english speaking, good grades etc it was nigh impossible to even land an interview with a half decent firm, whether for work here or back in London.

i now work for a small rural firm in the southwest US and still earn less than 40K, am now in my early 30s, and while i enjoy my job tremendously, i still harbor my earlier goal of working for a caliber firm either here or back in the UK oneday. obviously, a move back home to the UK right now would be a career-killer.







<blockquote>I posted this in another thread, but I thought I should reproduce it here because it is relevant:
_______________________________________

There is obviously a lot of myth and confusion running around these boards about post-LLM careers in the US, so I thought it might be helpful for me to offer my own thoughts.

I will start with some brief details about my background, so that you can understand where I am coming from. I am from a developing country, I obtained my LLB from a top law school in England, and I am doing the LLM now at Harvard. I have never worked before, so I am one of those 23-year-old inexperienced youngsters in our class of extremely talented and accomplished people here. I received job offers from four top Wall Street law firms to join their New York offices permanently as an associate after my LLM (these are the most 'prestigious' jobs which pay $145,000!).

In general, this has been my experience: It is true that JD students have it much, much easier than LLM students in finding a law firm job in the US. However, some US law firms in the US do recruit LLM students, and if so, these are the general factors which inform them (I specifically asked all the law firms that made me offers, and their answers confirm my friends' job hunt experiences):

1. Location of your first law school - in general, people with LLBs from the English-speaking common law countries are most highly regarded (e.g. UK, Canada, Australia, then followed by India and Singapore).

2. Your English 'SPEAKING' abilities - law firms are less impressed by your TOEFL score, than your speaking abilities. American law firm partners tend to be very turned turned off by strong foreign accents.

3. Your LLM fall semester grades - since many firms recruit in the Spring, they will want to see your LLM fall semester grades. If your grades are excellent (especially at law schools like Harvard where the LLMs are placed on the same curve as the JDs), you will be highly regarded.

4. Your LLM school - law firms are DEFINITELY picky with this one. They essentially look a lot more at places like Harvard, Columbia and NYU. I would say it is COMPLETELY UNTRUE that you stand a better chance at Columbia than Harvard. The reason why placement is better at Columbia is probably more Columbia LLM students apply for jobs in the US, whereas the Harvard LLM class has a lot of people who are keen to return to their high profile public / academic positions in their own countries.

5. Relevant foreign language skills - certain languages are very high in demand (e.g. Mandarin, Japanese, Korean and Spanish). But these are more relevant if the firm is hoping to send you to a foreign office.

6. Your previous work experience - if you have relevant work experience, this is helpful, but this is certainly not the most important factor, compared to the above (because you will more than likely be a first-year or at most second-year associate in NY anyway).

7. Your cultural background - US law firm interviews are very different from their UK counterparts. Here, the partners are very keen to know about you to see whether you can comfortably fit into THEIR culture. E.g. during my interviews, I always somehow ended up talking about galleries, museums and theaters in London and Europe, my interest in Victorian literature and classical music.

Overall, I will say that if you are thinking of investing $60K (with loans) for your LLM with the sole aim of getting a job here, then think hard if you do not have most of the above. I did not come to Harvard to get a job here; I had a job waiting for me with an international law firm back in London. I would have been reallly jittery otherwise, because $60K is a lot of money for someone from a developing country like me.

This year, the job market is good. About 50 of us have job offers in New York, bearing in mind that only less than a hundred applied in our class (all the judges, academics and civil servants in our class did not apply for jobs).
</blockquote>
quote
anushka

this is an interesting post...it's evident we all have good "credentials" since we've been admitted to top law schools, yet we all have different backgrounds...
I personally don't know what's it going to be like for me...but I sure know I'll have an amazing opportunity to meet interesting people from around the world in our field...and who knows, I'm hopeful doors will open despite all the uncertainty concerning our "after-LLM" lives, after investing a fortune.

this is an interesting post...it's evident we all have good "credentials" since we've been admitted to top law schools, yet we all have different backgrounds...
I personally don't know what's it going to be like for me...but I sure know I'll have an amazing opportunity to meet interesting people from around the world in our field...and who knows, I'm hopeful doors will open despite all the uncertainty concerning our "after-LLM" lives, after investing a fortune.
quote
asterion

Interesting dicsussion. How about temporary (1-2 years) job placement in say, IP or high tech firms or companies coming from Stanford's LST??

Interesting dicsussion. How about temporary (1-2 years) job placement in say, IP or high tech firms or companies coming from Stanford's LST??
quote
subslaw

Hi everyone, this seems to be a very interesting post...i was just wondering if someone here could give information on the job opportunities for LLM in Intl Legal Studies post LLM

Hi everyone, this seems to be a very interesting post...i was just wondering if someone here could give information on the job opportunities for LLM in Intl Legal Studies post LLM
quote
IntLaw

Hi all,
the two threads I found very informative were one by Rass about bar exam and this one. This thread has given me some good advice and info.
Thanks ppl.

Hi all,
the two threads I found very informative were one by Rass about bar exam and this one. This thread has given me some good advice and info.
Thanks ppl.
quote

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