Is a Harvard LLM worth it?


yueping
Yueping say take Penn Law over Harvard anyday.

Harvard sux0rs.


Why are you so obsessed with me that you continuously bring my name up ? What did I possibly do to you ?

Do you always hold grudges against people with different points of view or who disagree with you ?
<blockquote>Yueping say take Penn Law over Harvard anyday.

Harvard sux0rs.</blockquote>

Why are you so obsessed with me that you continuously bring my name up ? What did I possibly do to you ?

Do you always hold grudges against people with different points of view or who disagree with you ?
quote
wakil
This thread, perpetuated over 3 years, is actually one of the most useful and enlightening ones on this site (notwithstanding the odd squabble that has broken out within it)...

Kazaf's carrer plans from 2005 are only of academic interest now, but are very instructive. I am not sure what he ended up doing post LLM. I would be really surprised if he actually did come back to join the Magic Circle firm rather than switch to a NY firm. This is simply because Magic Circle firms pay peanuts by comparison. With his credentials, Kazaf could have walked into any elite Wall St firm, and I hope he did. But maybe he remained the loyal terrier of his Magic Circle employer.... Will we ever know?...
This thread, perpetuated over 3 years, is actually one of the most useful and enlightening ones on this site (notwithstanding the odd squabble that has broken out within it)...

Kazaf's carrer plans from 2005 are only of academic interest now, but are very instructive. I am not sure what he ended up doing post LLM. I would be really surprised if he actually did come back to join the Magic Circle firm rather than switch to a NY firm. This is simply because Magic Circle firms pay peanuts by comparison. With his credentials, Kazaf could have walked into any elite Wall St firm, and I hope he did. But maybe he remained the loyal terrier of his Magic Circle employer.... Will we ever know?...
quote
fg
Yueping say take Penn Law over Harvard anyday.

Harvard sux0rs.


Why are you so obsessed with me that you continuously bring my name up ? What did I possibly do to you ?

Do you always hold grudges against people with different points of view or who disagree with you ?


Yup, he (aka YLS) did the same thing to me. I figure some people just have inferiority complexes and/or are bored so get their ego boosted by mocking others. It is strange because you would think if Harvard is so great they wouldn't feel the need to put down or ridicule other people who say how much they enjoyed their schools. One wonders if he is really as happy as he says he is up in Boston...
<blockquote><blockquote>Yueping say take Penn Law over Harvard anyday.

Harvard sux0rs.</blockquote>

Why are you so obsessed with me that you continuously bring my name up ? What did I possibly do to you ?

Do you always hold grudges against people with different points of view or who disagree with you ?</blockquote>

Yup, he (aka YLS) did the same thing to me. I figure some people just have inferiority complexes and/or are bored so get their ego boosted by mocking others. It is strange because you would think if Harvard is so great they wouldn't feel the need to put down or ridicule other people who say how much they enjoyed their schools. One wonders if he is really as happy as he says he is up in Boston...
quote
michal
>One wonders if he is really as happy as he says he is up in >Boston...

To me Josepidal seems quite happy. And is a very likable person, one of the nicest and smartest around. We're classmates, so that's no hearsay :)

By the way I disagree with Josepidal as to the power of Harvard LL.M. at the job market. Some of us are having quite a hard time. My feeling is that employment opportunities depend more on your pre-LL.M. background (nationality, education and experience) than just on the name of the school. As to the percentage - it's hard to count: some people want to go back, some would eventually stay for a year or two, some really want to make their career in the US. My guess is that 40 - 60% of the LL.M. get into NY top law firms. Does it equal to the 100% of these who "really wanted" the job? I doubt. People tend to rationalize their choices - if having no offers from NY one accepts an offer from London and herself starts to think "who wants NY, I always wanted to work in Europe".

I think that neither "no matter who you are, Harvard LL.M. diploma gets the NY 160K job for you" nor "if you're not UK LLB grad with significant experience, Harvard LL.M. is worthless" is true. I am sure that Harvard opens opportunities I would never have even though I was quite successful and say - innovative lawyer back in my country. This "my country" sounds like if I was Borat's compatriot, which is quite close :)

Harvard is great but I am sure (I really mean it) that other schools can give great satisfaction and opportunities (I have a friend who does really well in Brussels after LL.M. at GW - with no pre-LL.M. experience landed in a prestigious firm, and have another friend with Harvard diploma and great pre-LL.M. credentials who went back to our little town in Eastern Europe and is doing not that well).

My advice is that you should follow your common sense but first - go for your dreams. If you doubtful as to the LL.M. - try JD, but make things moving. Because if you're reading these discussions - you're not 100% happy with your domestic education and career :)

All the best to waiting & admitted applicants!

m.

PS. Kazaf - I remember reading your posts when I was applying - it was very impressed by your courage and success.
>One wonders if he is really as happy as he says he is up in >Boston...

To me Josepidal seems quite happy. And is a very likable person, one of the nicest and smartest around. We're classmates, so that's no hearsay :)

By the way I disagree with Josepidal as to the power of Harvard LL.M. at the job market. Some of us are having quite a hard time. My feeling is that employment opportunities depend more on your pre-LL.M. background (nationality, education and experience) than just on the name of the school. As to the percentage - it's hard to count: some people want to go back, some would eventually stay for a year or two, some really want to make their career in the US. My guess is that 40 - 60% of the LL.M. get into NY top law firms. Does it equal to the 100% of these who "really wanted" the job? I doubt. People tend to rationalize their choices - if having no offers from NY one accepts an offer from London and herself starts to think "who wants NY, I always wanted to work in Europe".

I think that neither "no matter who you are, Harvard LL.M. diploma gets the NY 160K job for you" nor "if you're not UK LLB grad with significant experience, Harvard LL.M. is worthless" is true. I am sure that Harvard opens opportunities I would never have even though I was quite successful and say - innovative lawyer back in my country. This "my country" sounds like if I was Borat's compatriot, which is quite close :)

Harvard is great but I am sure (I really mean it) that other schools can give great satisfaction and opportunities (I have a friend who does really well in Brussels after LL.M. at GW - with no pre-LL.M. experience landed in a prestigious firm, and have another friend with Harvard diploma and great pre-LL.M. credentials who went back to our little town in Eastern Europe and is doing not that well).

My advice is that you should follow your common sense but first - go for your dreams. If you doubtful as to the LL.M. - try JD, but make things moving. Because if you're reading these discussions - you're not 100% happy with your domestic education and career :)

All the best to waiting & admitted applicants!

m.

PS. Kazaf - I remember reading your posts when I was applying - it was very impressed by your courage and success.
quote
josepidal
michalPL, whoever you are, go post in the "Employability" thread. :P

Ouch, a taste of my own medicine. You really have to read the original josepidal-ivan2006-yueping comments; the original context was pooh-poohing yueping for putting down UChicago!
michalPL, whoever you are, go post in the "Employability" thread. :P

Ouch, a taste of my own medicine. You really have to read the original josepidal-ivan2006-yueping comments; the original context was pooh-poohing yueping for putting down UChicago!
quote
MarkBrasil
Man,
I am from Brazil and I am jealous of your situation, but at same time, I congratulate you for that.
If I were in your position, and I believe you want a "short" and "direct" answer, I would go to Harvard without even thinking.
You would get a foreign experience in the most respectable school in the world, in general.
Go to Harvard and forget the rest!
Man,
I am from Brazil and I am jealous of your situation, but at same time, I congratulate you for that.
If I were in your position, and I believe you want a "short" and "direct" answer, I would go to Harvard without even thinking.
You would get a foreign experience in the most respectable school in the world, in general.
Go to Harvard and forget the rest!
quote
MarkBrasil
And you know something? You might get out of Harvard and not be succesfull which I doubt, but at least you will have Harvard stamped on it.
If you ask the great majority of people logged in this website, probably 90% would go to Harvard, according to what I have read before.
But there are great schools also, its just that I think you would fit on Harvard, and if you keep reading too many opinions on this site you will think too much...
And you know something? You might get out of Harvard and not be succesfull which I doubt, but at least you will have Harvard stamped on it.
If you ask the great majority of people logged in this website, probably 90% would go to Harvard, according to what I have read before.
But there are great schools also, its just that I think you would fit on Harvard, and if you keep reading too many opinions on this site you will think too much...
quote
ivan2006
michalPL, whoever you are, go post in the "Employability" thread. :P

Ouch, a taste of my own medicine. You really have to read the original josepidal-ivan2006-yueping comments; the original context was pooh-poohing yueping for putting down UChicago!


Jose, that girl hit you below the belt... :-P Will there be a second round?...

No grudges against Yueping - as Josepidal said, yueping was known in this forum by writing posts that revealed a rare talent for confrontation. You may like his "punching" style or not, but I think he is incredbly entretaining and a real myth in this forum. Josepidal probably agrees with that, and that´s the reason he endears so much yueping.

And yes, the "yueping affair" started with a UChicago x Upenn discussion.
<blockquote>michalPL, whoever you are, go post in the "Employability" thread. :P

Ouch, a taste of my own medicine. You really have to read the original josepidal-ivan2006-yueping comments; the original context was pooh-poohing yueping for putting down UChicago!</blockquote>

Jose, that girl hit you below the belt... :-P Will there be a second round?...

No grudges against Yueping - as Josepidal said, yueping was known in this forum by writing posts that revealed a rare talent for confrontation. You may like his "punching" style or not, but I think he is incredbly entretaining and a real myth in this forum. Josepidal probably agrees with that, and that´s the reason he endears so much yueping.

And yes, the "yueping affair" started with a UChicago x Upenn discussion.
quote
dannyh
By the way I disagree with Josepidal as to the power of Harvard LL.M. at the job market. Some of us are having quite a hard time. My feeling is that employment opportunities depend more on your pre-LL.M. background (nationality, education and experience) than just on the name of the school. As to the percentage - it's hard to count: some people want to go back, some would eventually stay for a year or two, some really want to make their career in the US. My guess is that 40 - 60% of the LL.M. get into NY top law firms. Does it equal to the 100% of these who "really wanted" the job? I doubt. People tend to rationalize their choices - if having no offers from NY one accepts an offer from London and herself starts to think "who wants NY, I always wanted to work in Europe".

I think that neither "no matter who you are, Harvard LL.M. diploma gets the NY 160K job for you" nor "if you're not UK LLB grad with significant experience, Harvard LL.M. is worthless" is true. I am sure that Harvard opens opportunities I would never have even though I was quite successful and say - innovative lawyer back in my country. This "my country" sounds like if I was Borat's compatriot, which is quite close :)

Harvard is great but I am sure (I really mean it) that other schools can give great satisfaction and opportunities (I have a friend who does really well in Brussels after LL.M. at GW - with no pre-LL.M. experience landed in a prestigious firm, and have another friend with Harvard diploma and great pre-LL.M. credentials who went back to our little town in Eastern Europe and is doing not that well).

My advice is that you should follow your common sense but first - go for your dreams. If you doubtful as to the LL.M. - try JD, but make things moving. Because if you're reading these discussions - you're not 100% happy with your domestic education and career :)


Thanks for sharing with us some precious bit of info.

It is certainly good that some persons set the record straignt and do not mislead people with PR propaganda making applicants believe everything is pink and rosy at certain schools, only to have these applications have a shock and a disappointment once they are not able to get that 160k job despite being in the school with "guaranteed 100% success rate".

I also believe that employment opportunities is strongly based on your pre-LLM background, and that the name of the school is secondary.

What is odd is that they seem to be obsessed with yueping and constantly drag his name in the mud at every occasion.
<blockquote>By the way I disagree with Josepidal as to the power of Harvard LL.M. at the job market. Some of us are having quite a hard time. My feeling is that employment opportunities depend more on your pre-LL.M. background (nationality, education and experience) than just on the name of the school. As to the percentage - it's hard to count: some people want to go back, some would eventually stay for a year or two, some really want to make their career in the US. My guess is that 40 - 60% of the LL.M. get into NY top law firms. Does it equal to the 100% of these who "really wanted" the job? I doubt. People tend to rationalize their choices - if having no offers from NY one accepts an offer from London and herself starts to think "who wants NY, I always wanted to work in Europe".

I think that neither "no matter who you are, Harvard LL.M. diploma gets the NY 160K job for you" nor "if you're not UK LLB grad with significant experience, Harvard LL.M. is worthless" is true. I am sure that Harvard opens opportunities I would never have even though I was quite successful and say - innovative lawyer back in my country. This "my country" sounds like if I was Borat's compatriot, which is quite close :)

Harvard is great but I am sure (I really mean it) that other schools can give great satisfaction and opportunities (I have a friend who does really well in Brussels after LL.M. at GW - with no pre-LL.M. experience landed in a prestigious firm, and have another friend with Harvard diploma and great pre-LL.M. credentials who went back to our little town in Eastern Europe and is doing not that well).

My advice is that you should follow your common sense but first - go for your dreams. If you doubtful as to the LL.M. - try JD, but make things moving. Because if you're reading these discussions - you're not 100% happy with your domestic education and career :) </blockquote>

Thanks for sharing with us some precious bit of info.

It is certainly good that some persons set the record straignt and do not mislead people with PR propaganda making applicants believe everything is pink and rosy at certain schools, only to have these applications have a shock and a disappointment once they are not able to get that 160k job despite being in the school with "guaranteed 100% success rate".

I also believe that employment opportunities is strongly based on your pre-LLM background, and that the name of the school is secondary.

What is odd is that they seem to be obsessed with yueping and constantly drag his name in the mud at every occasion.
quote
michal

Thanks for sharing with us some precious bit of info.
It is certainly good that some persons set the record straignt and do not mislead people with PR propaganda making applicants believe everything is pink and rosy at certain schools, only to have these applications have a shock and a disappointment once they are not able to get that 160k job despite being in the school with "guaranteed 100% success rate".

Just to clarify: I do think that Harvard is a better school (if not the best school) - also on the job market. My impression is that Harvard's impact is very strong in the US law firm market and even stronger in Europe & Asia. If you have two similar resumes (and believe me - we all have them impressive but similar), Harvard weights a lot more than other top schools. Still it does not guarantee a position in NY. Best luck with your careers!
<blockquote>
Thanks for sharing with us some precious bit of info.
It is certainly good that some persons set the record straignt and do not mislead people with PR propaganda making applicants believe everything is pink and rosy at certain schools, only to have these applications have a shock and a disappointment once they are not able to get that 160k job despite being in the school with "guaranteed 100% success rate".
</blockquote>
Just to clarify: I do think that Harvard is a better school (if not the best school) - also on the job market. My impression is that Harvard's impact is very strong in the US law firm market and even stronger in Europe & Asia. If you have two similar resumes (and believe me - we all have them impressive but similar), Harvard weights a lot more than other top schools. Still it does not guarantee a position in NY. Best luck with your careers!
quote
saadia
any new thoughts on the subject?? perhaps some harvard llm graduates can share their experience.
Merci!!
any new thoughts on the subject?? perhaps some harvard llm graduates can share their experience.
Merci!!
quote
jeeves
Wow so much of insight into whether Harvard or oxford.
What a lucky choice to have :D
ill sell my soul to be selected at Harvard (Prospective buyers please note!)

Thanks everybody it was a great read!
Wow so much of insight into whether Harvard or oxford.
What a lucky choice to have :D
ill sell my soul to be selected at Harvard (Prospective buyers please note!)

Thanks everybody it was a great read!


quote
errick
It really depends on you career goals. If you will be frequently exposed to American companies and US laws, then it's wise to take a year learning the essentials at a US law school, a Harvard at that. If not, it's probably not necessary. As far as prestige goes, the program accepted you is Harvard LLM, not Harvard JD. There's a world of difference. They really don't ring the same in the legal profession. I'd go out on a limb that pretty much everyone accepted at a Harvard LLM program wouldn't have been given offers in its JD program. A 170 on the LSAT is not a score you can get just by studying hard.
It really depends on you career goals. If you will be frequently exposed to American companies and US laws, then it's wise to take a year learning the essentials at a US law school, a Harvard at that. If not, it's probably not necessary. As far as prestige goes, the program accepted you is Harvard LLM, not Harvard JD. There's a world of difference. They really don't ring the same in the legal profession. I'd go out on a limb that pretty much everyone accepted at a Harvard LLM program wouldn't have been given offers in its JD program. A 170 on the LSAT is not a score you can get just by studying hard.
quote
GlasgowLaw
Does any one know what is taken into account if a student from Glasgow Law School applies to NYU, Berkeley, Harvard Law, with a First Class honours, and a year abroad in Hong Kong, an plenty of extra curricular activities?

Any comments welcome, also feedback from Glasgow alumni

Cheers
Does any one know what is taken into account if a student from Glasgow Law School applies to NYU, Berkeley, Harvard Law, with a First Class honours, and a year abroad in Hong Kong, an plenty of extra curricular activities?

Any comments welcome, also feedback from Glasgow alumni

Cheers

quote
bernese
i know this thread is finished, but i just have to say the obvious: harvard.

why? OP only plans to qualify in England and then more or less immediately move to HK, and even then only wants to practice for a few years before moving on to something that is less of a grind. W a Harvard LLM and a job already locked up w a magic circle firm (pls previous legal training in the common law tradition) it is impossible that this person would not get a job at a vault-10 firm in NYC. Two years at said vault firm versus two years on a trainee contract in London would pay approx 150K more, plus he would be much better positioned to make the desired move over to HK at the end of these two years. Plus, you can always qualify in England later by effectively waiving in.

Wonder why yr employer didnt want to pay for yr Harvard degree, huh?
i know this thread is finished, but i just have to say the obvious: harvard.

why? OP only plans to qualify in England and then more or less immediately move to HK, and even then only wants to practice for a few years before moving on to something that is less of a grind. W a Harvard LLM and a job already locked up w a magic circle firm (pls previous legal training in the common law tradition) it is impossible that this person would not get a job at a vault-10 firm in NYC. Two years at said vault firm versus two years on a trainee contract in London would pay approx 150K more, plus he would be much better positioned to make the desired move over to HK at the end of these two years. Plus, you can always qualify in England later by effectively waiving in.

Wonder why yr employer didnt want to pay for yr Harvard degree, huh?
quote
elbing
Wonder why yr employer didnt want to pay for yr Harvard degree, huh?


Good point. But don't law firms usually make contracts that force you to return after finishing your studies?
<blockquote>Wonder why yr employer didnt want to pay for yr Harvard degree, huh?</blockquote>

Good point. But don't law firms usually make contracts that force you to return after finishing your studies?
quote
Nail
Good point. But don't law firms usually make contracts that force you to return after finishing your studies?

:) and how would they possibly do that? Perhaps kidnapping your family and blackmailing you?
Seriously, letting jokes aside, I'm curious to learn how. Please enlighten me if you have heard of anyone who had entered such a contract.

bernese, you have resuscitated one of the most insightful threads in this forum. I think that although long time has passed since Kazaf has posted his question, the dilemmas raised in here are still crucial -and even more so, after the credit crunch. I am not sure that Kazaf would have still chosen Harvard with the drastic reduction in job prospects in the last year or so...

I would like to raise a correlated question: if you were accepted at Harvard as well as at a law school which offers great teaching (not necessarily a specialized program) in the field where you want to practice after your LLM, which one would you choose? Say, for example, you are accepted at St. Louis University and you'd like to practice Health Care law (St Louis ranks 1st in this area), Georgetown and you'd like to work on WTO stuff, Berkeley for IP law, Vermont for environmental law, NYU tax...and so forth.
Would you choose the brand reputation and the unique academic atmosphere of Cambridge, or the possibility to get the highly sectorial preparation offered by the other law school? I guess the answer differs depending on what one wishes to do afterwards (e.g. go back to his/her country or not, work for a law firm in the US or not, work for a multinational or a big corporation or the government/an international organization,etc. etc.), but it would be definitely interesting to share our views on this subject. I believe this question has never been raised before.
Good point. But don't law firms usually make contracts that force you to return after finishing your studies?

:) and how would they possibly do that? Perhaps kidnapping your family and blackmailing you?
Seriously, letting jokes aside, I'm curious to learn how. Please enlighten me if you have heard of anyone who had entered such a contract.

bernese, you have resuscitated one of the most insightful threads in this forum. I think that although long time has passed since Kazaf has posted his question, the dilemmas raised in here are still crucial -and even more so, after the credit crunch. I am not sure that Kazaf would have still chosen Harvard with the drastic reduction in job prospects in the last year or so...

I would like to raise a correlated question: if you were accepted at Harvard as well as at a law school which offers great teaching (not necessarily a specialized program) in the field where you want to practice after your LLM, which one would you choose? Say, for example, you are accepted at St. Louis University and you'd like to practice Health Care law (St Louis ranks 1st in this area), Georgetown and you'd like to work on WTO stuff, Berkeley for IP law, Vermont for environmental law, NYU tax...and so forth.
Would you choose the brand reputation and the unique academic atmosphere of Cambridge, or the possibility to get the highly sectorial preparation offered by the other law school? I guess the answer differs depending on what one wishes to do afterwards (e.g. go back to his/her country or not, work for a law firm in the US or not, work for a multinational or a big corporation or the government/an international organization,etc. etc.), but it would be definitely interesting to share our views on this subject. I believe this question has never been raised before.
quote
QSWE
Nail, the debate we are raging in other threads has been going on for so long. Just shows that exceptional views are not in such a great minority.
Nail, the debate we are raging in other threads has been going on for so long. Just shows that exceptional views are not in such a great minority.
quote
elbing
Good point. But don't law firms usually make contracts that force you to return after finishing your studies?


:) and how would they possibly do that? Perhaps kidnapping your family and blackmailing you?


I think there are ways to do that. That's what I read on another board:

"My firm basically pays for the LLM tuition and other related expenses. However, if you leave the firm within 3 years after you receive a credit, you must pay them back. I am not sure whether you need to pay back if you get fired or not."

> taxtalent.com/forum/message.cfm?m=2191&CAT=general&beginshow=3661
<blockquote><blockquote>Good point. But don't law firms usually make contracts that force you to return after finishing your studies?</blockquote>

:) and how would they possibly do that? Perhaps kidnapping your family and blackmailing you?</blockquote>

I think there are ways to do that. That's what I read on another board:

"My firm basically pays for the LLM tuition and other related expenses. However, if you leave the firm within 3 years after you receive a credit, you must pay them back. I am not sure whether you need to pay back if you get fired or not."

> taxtalent.com/forum/message.cfm?m=2191&CAT=general&beginshow=3661
quote
Nail
I know! But that's what I like about this website...:)
I think I already know what you think, you seem to consider HLS brand reputation mainly a marketing thing while suggesting that the focus should be more on one's individual (especially professional) experience.

This is an endless debate, but I believe we would all gain from having a confrontation on this issue.
I can tell u for experience -and you probably already know- that despite the crucial importance of professional achievements, the title of LLM would make you leap substantially forward in the marketplace. And I am tempted to say that an LLM at Harvard, Yale and Stanford would weigh much more than the others, precisely for the kind of doors they open up. Nonetheless, this is far from saying that I would choose one of those programs if I already knew that I'd lke to practice in a particular area, and I had the opportunity to be taught by the most knowledgeable people in that area in another school. Hence in the example above I would opt for the lower ranked school. But my aim is more at academia/policy-making, I guess the conclusions would differ for people with other objectives.
Again, I'd like to see what other people think. Cheers,
Nail
I know! But that's what I like about this website...:)
I think I already know what you think, you seem to consider HLS brand reputation mainly a marketing thing while suggesting that the focus should be more on one's individual (especially professional) experience.

This is an endless debate, but I believe we would all gain from having a confrontation on this issue.
I can tell u for experience -and you probably already know- that despite the crucial importance of professional achievements, the title of LLM would make you leap substantially forward in the marketplace. And I am tempted to say that an LLM at Harvard, Yale and Stanford would weigh much more than the others, precisely for the kind of doors they open up. Nonetheless, this is far from saying that I would choose one of those programs if I already knew that I'd lke to practice in a particular area, and I had the opportunity to be taught by the most knowledgeable people in that area in another school. Hence in the example above I would opt for the lower ranked school. But my aim is more at academia/policy-making, I guess the conclusions would differ for people with other objectives.
Again, I'd like to see what other people think. Cheers,
Nail
quote

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